At least Roosey had to eat some humble pie (albeit on his son's behalf) about Jurrah being the most overrated player in the competition.

As far as game plans (or lack thereof), I'm going to reserve judgement until after this weekend. If we're still struggling against the Suns with kickouts, applying pressure, forcing turnovers, and basically demonstrating we have some sort of structure to our attack and defense, then serious questions need to be asked. Waiting til our premiership window to think seriously about tactics won't cut it as an excuse.

We've drawn against Sydney, having come from behind. We've been in front of the Hawks at half-time by 19 points - scribes were sharpening their pencils and editors were choosing headlines for Clarko's demise, and we've come back and beaten a well drilled Brisbane in Round 3. Yet, anyone would think the world is ending !

The MFCSS is rubbing off on some.

Looks more like a contest between MFCSS and MFCFS

What game plan ?

We play soft unaccountable footy. Hardly a recipe for a flag.

Can you see the difference between your two comments ?

We have played patches of football where we have been too slow to push up, not prepared to work hard enough to get to a contest or make a contest and not gut running to offer options - stagnant slow football. Consequently when we did this we were blown off the park by Hawthorn and didnt nail either the swans or the lions

This has nothing to do with game plan.

We've drawn against Sydney, having come from behind. We've been in front of the Hawks at half-time by 19 points - scribes were sharpening their pencils and editors were choosing headlines for Clarko's demise, and we've come back and beaten a well drilled Brisbane in Round 3. Yet, anyone would think the world is ending !

On paper that sounds fantastic. The reality is we were tripe asgainst a bottom 2 side. Absolute tripe. And the less said about the majority of the game against the Hawks the better.

Massive improvement required this week. I'm quietly confident we'll see it.

I agree with Hannabal about the man-on-man. Slick tactics come and go, but man-on-man, especially in big games and finals, has been winning matches since Sir Walter Raleigh played kick-to-kick when the Spanish Armada hove into sight. You can have all the transition, free up the loose man, one-two shift overlap zone-based coverage rebound fast break full court ironing presses you like, but in a big game coaches say "go out and stop your bloke" and if you are not ready to duke it out you will lose. Malthouse knows it, Worsfold know it, Sheedy knows it, Roos knows it, Pagan knows it, Matthews knows it. And guess what: they've won nearly all the flags over the last 20 years.

Old, you and other long time posters have a tendency to immediately want to support the club and coach in everything. I'll support the club too, but I'll also question the club.

Indeed - guilty as charged.

I enjoyed reading all the endorsements here of Thompson's game plan in 2006, Clarkson's game plan in 2007 and Matlhouse's game plan in 2009 - they were enlightening.

No-one, including me, has got a clue really.

Edited April 14, 201114 yr by old55

Statistics are things people use selectively to back up their own specious arguments. Our midfield is, in the main, underdeveloped and as a consequence we get a lot of entries into our defensive 50 and not enough into our offensive 50. This leads to us getting most of our turnovers in the defensive 50, but it is not nescessarily our plan. We need to get a couple more pre-seasons into Skully, Trengove, Tapscott, Blease, Gysberts, McKenzie and Grimes. Only then will our plan become evident to all.

Edited April 14, 201114 yr by undeeniable

I agree with Hannabal about the man-on-man. Slick tactics come and go, but man-on-man, especially in big games and finals, has been winning matches since Sir Walter Raleigh played kick-to-kick when the Spanish Armada hove into sight. You can have all the transition, free up the loose man, one-two shift overlap zone-based coverage rebound fast break full court ironing presses you like, but in a big game coaches say "go out and stop your bloke" and if you are not ready to duke it out you will lose. Malthouse knows it, Worsfold know it, Sheedy knows it, Roos knows it, Pagan knows it, Matthews knows it. And guess what: they've won nearly all the flags over the last 20 years.

Not every Premiership team plays man-on-man every round of the year. Some may have played man-on-man in the GF's, but I doubt very much they did it week in, week out in getting there.

Tactics, presses, match-ups play a huge part and have a huge say in the journey towards a Premiership in the modern game.

And I'm tipping they all had great engine rooms in their own right. Snap.

Old, you and other long time posters have a tendency to immediately want to support the club and coach in everything. I'll support the club too, but I'll also question the club.

Continue the cheerleading ...

I always find it amusing when those that question the club turn around and for reasons beknownst to their own ego claim other who don't share their view have a 'default position of support' for the club.

We all support the club immeasurably, hence why we are on here.

I agree with the club on some things, and not on other things. I have been supportive of the year extension to Bailey's contract and I have criticised our on-field leadership.

Don't see why you have to stroke your own ego by claiming others are simply the 'blind, deaf, and dumb cheerleaders.'

Not every Premiership team plays man-on-man every round of the year. Some may have played man-on-man in the GF's, but I doubt very much they did it week in, week out in getting there.

Tactics, presses, match-ups play a huge part and have a huge say in the journey towards a Premiership in the modern game.

I'm not suggesting we ignore tactics. What I am saying is the footy is a legalised punch-up and the strongest and nastiest team generally wins the chocolates.

Tactics-wise, and as far as I am concerned, you can put an asterisk next to Hawthorn 2008 so future historians can argue the merits of the Hawks' fluke flag. Port, too, in 2004, thanks to Brisbane falling over through injury.

Biggest load of hypocritical dross I've read in a long time on this forum. You make me sick rpfc. I've just puked all over my computer.

Why can you never support your point of view ? How is it hypocritical then ?

2009 i just wanted to lose games. So we could get picks 1 & 2.

2010 i just want to play better footy.

2011 we are playing guys in key positions that haven't even played more games than they are years old! it's all about baptism by fire for these players!

Tactics-wise, and as far as I am concerned, you can put an asterisk next to Hawthorn 2008 so future historians can argue the merits of the Hawks' fluke flag. Port, too, in 2004, thanks to Brisbane falling over through injury.

Hawthorn were well drilled, the amount of pressure they applied made sides crumble, as did Geelong in the final. I'm not so much a believer in "fluke flags" Godemons. Do you recall the forward pressure Dew, Williams applied on the Geelong backmen when trying to get the ball out. They coughed it up and Dew was good enough to punish them. That's no fluke. That game had the hallmarks of that instance.

Wanganeen, Burgoyne & Co. say hi in 2004.

Biggest load of hypocritical dross I've read in a long time on this forum. You make me sick rpfc. I've just puked all over my computer.

Were you trying to be clever by revealing a 'always disagree with rpfc as a defualt position' bias or are you trying to say that I am a hypocrite because I am egotistical?

Because I am egotistical, but it doesn't make me a hypocrite...

I don't preface what I say with claims that others are 'blind' or have an inherent bias that disqualifies their opinion.

If you have taken personal offence to my criticism of your opinion when it comes to Scully going to GWS it is because you treat all others who have a contrary opinion - backed up with the same amount of evidence that you have - with a dismissiveness and condescension that you haven't earned.

Edited April 14, 201114 yr by rpfc

For mine if we push our forwards up to the midfield and our mids into the defence to 'press' then we can't play on at all costs when we get a free kick or a mark in the midfield because we need to hold up play and let the midfielders and forwards push back into the midfield and the forward 50. In essence the Press and 'Play on at all costs' are mutually exclusive. Too many times this season out I50s have been long kicks to outnumbered medium or small forwards and have thus been totally ineffective. The player in possession needs to show more patience and look to construct an effective I50 so we are able to retain the ball I50 for longer and have a far greater chance of scoring. His team mates need to lift their work rate to push forward to provide multiple options short and long and we need to have the numbers forward to pressure the defence if we do turn the ball over.

The query for mine is whether this is a failure of gameplan or a failure of workrate. And if it is a failure of work rate is it because our young players have not had the pre seasons required to build their endurance and repeat speed so they can push forward after pressing back.

Roosy does have some odd views. Thinks that Carlton did not recruit anough experienced players in recent years and that recruiting Maclean was a good decision. Thinks that the player we are missing is the tried and failed Brad Miller. And that Nathan Jones is our mout under rated player.

Edited April 14, 201114 yr by demoniac

It doesn't how good a game plan is, if the players aren't willing to chase and put pressure on the opposition the team is most likely going to lose. Take a look at the first half of last year, ever player took it apon themselves to keep us alive in every contest. We were good (not great) at this against Sydney, good for the second quarter v Hawks, and good in spurts v Lions.

There is just seems to be a lack of urgency at the moment.

Thinks that the player we are missing is the tried and failed Brad Miller.

Yeah that one had me scratching my head too.

He is a believe in Watts tho. (oops here we go)

Were you trying to be clever by revealing a 'always disagree with rpfc as a defualt position' bias or are you trying to say that I am a hypocrite because I am egotistical?

Because I am egotistical, but it doesn't make me a hypocrite...

I don't preface what I say with claims that others are 'blind' or have an inherent bias that disqualifies their opinion.

If you have taken personal offence to my criticism of your opinion when it comes to Scully going to GWS it is because you treat all others who have a contrary opinion - backed up with the same amount of evidence that you have - with a dismissiveness and condescension that you haven't earned.

Not taking sides here but the highlighted comment piqued my curiosity.

So, who IYO here on Demonland has earned the right to be "dismissive and condescending"?

Pates, that is a shocking post. Why don't you try being more strident and absolutist. What the hell is wrong with you?

Let's face it, a one point loss and a drawn against collingwood last year is/should be definitive re: our lack of game plan and soft team...

Not taking sides here but the highlighted comment piqued my curiosity.

So, who IYO here on Demonland has earned the right to be "dismissive and condescending"?

High Tower and E25 got their card off the back of a weeties packet!

Let's face it, a one point loss and a drawn against collingwood last year is/should be definitive re: our lack of game plan and soft team...

We played with far more urgency and defensive pressure on the midfield ball carrier last year. McKenzie has been a big loss.

Not every Premiership team plays man-on-man every round of the year. Some may have played man-on-man in the GF's, but I doubt very much they did it week in, week out in getting there.

Tactics, presses, match-ups play a huge part and have a huge say in the journey towards a Premiership in the modern game.

And I'm tipping they all had great engine rooms in their own right. Snap.

It's as important how you structure up when you don't have the ball as when you do. The best teams defend space by presses and zones, and play 'man on man' footy to maximize extreme pressure on the ball carrier when not in possession.

IMO our basic game plan is good. It is derived from soccer where some teams use breakaway attacks which they launch from defence.

What I'm concerned about - just "concerned" at this stage - is that there are problems with it that we exhibit again and again that we don't seem to do anything about.

For example, if we can't "launch" out of defence, we can end up getting trapped in our D50, especially at "dead-ball" situations such as kick-ins & marks or frees in the back pocket. Apart from using Tapscott and hoping that Strauss comes good, we are far too predictable. This is a fundamental problem that needs to be worked on, perhaps using a series of set-plays.

Another problem is with all the forwards funnelling back past the centreline, so when the ball gets moved quickly to midfield, they can't get back enough to make position. This has been raised time and time again, and would be easy enough to remedy. But the game plan seems to demand that everybody's back when we're defending, and it's not working, and it's not going to work.

Another problem is that it's relatively easy for opposition teams to counter, merely by blocking up the corridor, like Hawks did. So what do we do when the corridor gets blocked? We're trying to be less predictable with switching etc, but it's not there yet. It's like we don't expect the other team to try to block our supply, but from now on we'll find that happening in every game, so it's going to be absolutely essential to work out what we do when the other side crowds the corridor.

But the real Achilles heel is that its success depends so much on not getting smashed too badly at clearances & contested footy. If we are getting smashed here, we absolutely need to do everything to get back on terms, and the coaches should have a small number of strategies, moves to make etc to try to stop being smashed. Otherwise we will see a lot of bad quarters against the better teams.

Our game plan has many advantages. It's very efficient, because the majority of scoring chances it creates are very good ones, which means that we don't need as many F50 entries to score. It is also very hard to counter, because once a hole has been picked and the ball is played well, huge gaps open up which allow lightning and virtually unstoppable ball movement, which is very difficult to counter once it gets moving. I'd be happy to take that game plan forwards.

But it concerns me that I can't see any evidence of thought being given to how it can break down, and what action we can take if it does break down. I can't see any evidence of anything being even tried, other than just sticking to the plan. I'd like to see it become more resilient, more multidimensional, more unpredictable - even just a little bit - and to see some evidence that we try something different when we're struggling with the A-game.

I really think that having a unique game-plan is essential to winning a Premiership, because as others have said, it is very difficult for other teams to counter that with which they have little experience. However, regarding the press, I do think that it's a disadvantage not to apply it ourselves, since if our forwards don't do it at training, our defenders have less experience penetrating it than other teams who have access to the press every single training session. At the moment, we only experience it once per week, whereas every other team has to battle through it each and every training session. Seems like a disadvantage to me.

It was recently stated by Todd Viney (i think) in one of the melbournefc.com.au articles, that we aren't really focusing on a game-plan atm, more so getting games into kids. I find this deeply disturbing, as the game plan drilled into a young team will surely pay massive dividends when the team matures (with some adjustments of course). But to not even focus on practising, let alone playing to a particular game-plan is mind boggling. No wonder many of our players don't know what to do when we have the ball.