I thought we could move the discussion off of a Hawthorn player.

I'd just like to know the general thoughts of the people.

EDIT: This is a poll from 2011. Current discussion starts here: http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23209-backing-jamar/?p=854525

Who voted yes to releasing Jamar from his primary ruck duties?! Show your face and explain

I would like eventually to see Mark Jamar as a big bruising power forward/ruck. But for this to happen we need one of the others to step up. While the others are still developing, I'd give Johnson the first crack at taking more of the workload in the ruck. But at this stage Jamar still owns this position.

Who voted yes to releasing Jamar from his primary ruck duties?! Show your face and explain

You can see yourself - it's a public poll.

I wanted people to actually think.

Evidently, it didn't work...

Me.

Jamar is a great Ruckman but he is our best Key forward for next year, unless another Hale or Clark arrive.

I would rather see a Newton/Spenser/PJ in the center than in the square in a tight last quarter.

Jamar is our best mark forward and I dont want to see jarrah and Watts bulking up too quickly.

If the question was framed differently I would have preferred to say that I would be happy to have Jamar in the forward line 40% of the match.

Martin and Fitzpatrick are the players currently on our list that fit the mould, but I'm not sure the former is good enough and the latter is not likely to come on enough this year to provide adequate cover. There's no science behind my assessment of Fitzpatrick, just gut feeling.

Spencer I see as a first ruck - I think he'll develop in to a good ruckman - a poor man's Jamar perhaps. He's aggressive and likes to hit bodies, has shown that he has the ability to take a grab (without being able to do it consistently), but I don't think he provides the forward line threat that we would want for a second ruck/forward yet. He's also got the obvious problem that he's hopelessly unco, but I think there's every chance that will improve with age.

Don't know enough about Gawn other than the fact that he's a man mountain and by all reports, fairly mobile for his size. I think he'd be years away from being a threat to anyone or anything.

Dunn, Sylvia and Newton are third last, second last and absolute last resorts in that order. Plan X, Y and Z if you will.

So basically, if we are unable to pick up any ruck-forward this trade period, we're relying on Fitzpatrick to come on sooner than expected, or Martin to come on full stop. It's not the ideal position to be in as you've not mitigated the significant risk that neither player will be of any use next year. I'm hopeful that the feelers are still out for someone to play in the role we had earmarked for Hale, but I have no idea who that could be. Mature aged player from a second tier competition?

Martin and Fitzpatrick are the players currently on our list that fit the mould, but I'm not sure the former is good enough and the latter is not likely to come on enough this year to provide adequate cover. There's no science behind my assessment of Fitzpatrick, just gut feeling.

Spencer I see as a first ruck - I think he'll develop in to a good ruckman - a poor man's Jamar perhaps. He's aggressive and likes to hit bodies, has shown that he has the ability to take a grab (without being able to do it consistently), but I don't think he provides the forward line threat that we would want for a second ruck/forward yet. He's also got the obvious problem that he's hopelessly unco, but I think there's every chance that will improve with age.

Don't know enough about Gawn other than the fact that he's a man mountain and by all reports, fairly mobile for his size. I think he'd be years away from being a threat to anyone or anything.

Dunn, Sylvia and Newton are third last, second last and absolute last resorts in that order. Plan X, Y and Z if you will.

So basically, if we are unable to pick up any ruck-forward this trade period, we're relying on Fitzpatrick to come on sooner than expected, or Martin to come on full stop. It's not the ideal position to be in as you've not mitigated the significant risk that neither player will be of any use next year. I'm hopeful that the feelers are still out for someone to play in the role we had earmarked for Hale, but I have no idea who that could be. Mature aged player from a second tier competition?

This is the part I'm just confused about.

Carlton have been playing Kreuzer since his first year. Admittingly, not all big young guys can come on that quick, but I don't think we have seen the best from Kreuzer yet. My point is that while Max and Jack F are still younf, and a number of years away from their peak, let's pump senior games in to them when they show enough at Casey. From all reports, that could be early 2011 for Jack.

With Max, he is 208cm and 104kg. There should be no reason that he can't play a similar role to what was going to be expected of Hale. His main task would be to make a contest, and hopefully if he didn't mark it, at least bring the ball to ground. Surely a guy that stands that high can do that. The difference between he and Hale would be the consistency and the match hardness.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that either Jack or Max are our saviours for 2011, but I just can't see the harm in playing either of them earlier, especially as a "stay at home Full Forward" that sneaks it to the ruck at times. Obviously form and fitness are the areas that they need to nail before this can happen.

If the first question is based on who do I expect then PJ. If based on who do I hope (if given the opportunity to prove himself) then Martin.

The ruck question should have included a 50/50 scenario which I think many clubs will entertain given the stocks.

Martin

Absolutely yes (given lack of timeframe)

2

I think it would be less than ideal to have to be in the position to turn an AA ruckman into a forward who rucks just because we don't have a back-up for him.

I also think that expecting Gawn or Fitzpatrick to be ready to deliver in any fashion inside of 3 years in a very good team (I assume we are going to be very good?) as two-thirds of you do is incrediably unfair on a couple of speculative kids.

We will have a busy monday, or we will be busy again in October 2011.

I think it would be less than ideal to have to be in the position to turn an AA ruckman into a forward who rucks just because we don't have a back-up for him.

I also think that expecting Gawn or Fitzpatrick to be ready to deliver in any fashion inside of 3 years in a very good team (I assume we are going to be very good?) as two-thirds of you do is incrediably unfair on a couple of speculative kids.

We will have a busy monday, or we will be busy again in October 2011.

Surely some work behind the scenes, including dining over the weekend would ensure a busy Monday. However, I tend to think we might be back in 2011.

The forward rucks are at a premium : -

1/ Because of new rule change

2/ Because GC & GWS are putting together lists and they don't grow on trees.

Hale's value I believe (considering these above circumstances) is what it is. Despite people saying the Hawks have payed "overs". I can see why some are a little disappointed. Still, back the FD. Trade week is not over and I'm sure there might still be something in the draft or in the FD's mind (ie.Plan B ) that might put a smile on everyone's dial.

I agree that Jamar's best possy is in the ruck. After all, he is an AA ruckman and that's what he is good at.

Forward ? I think we'll see a few given game time - Newton, Martin, PJ, Fitzpatrick & Spencer (not necessarily in that order), I am unsure and not confident in Gawn for 2011 but I have my fingers crossed that he advances well in development at Casey. Newton & PJ have been given games and time. So perhaps Martin can have a much better season and provide some influence up forward to create contests near the goalsquare for the crumbers. He can be physical and is mobile. Spencer to me, would be one that spends a bit of time in the ruck and allows Jamar time in the forward line. If this kid can develop well at centre bounces & around the ground with our midfield, this guy is my tip in a couple of years to spend a bit of time sharing duties with MJ. (I tend to think Martin might be the option up forward more for 2011). Of all of these, Newton provides more danger in the air up forward. But I think we've seen enough of him; been given ample chances. Need to see more on Fitzy's development to be convinced. Both he & Gawn will take a few years time.

BTW I calculate just on 1/3rd have voted less than 3 years. (ie. before 2014)

On the plus side for the ruck kids, the substitute rule might just work out in their favour.

Fitzpatrick in particular is touted as forward+ruck, and Gawn has been mentioned in that role too, so they could be on the 'bench-bench' to step into either role.

If they find themselves getting half a game playing as a substitute on a reasonably regular basis, that could actually turn out to be an ideal development path for young ruckmen. AFL experience without getting your body crushed.

PJ is in line for a breakout 2011 just like jamar had in 2010.

He is a year younger than jamar and maybe ruckman flourish at 27 ;-)

Hope we are all pleasantly surprised.

I also think that expecting Gawn or Fitzpatrick to be ready to deliver in any fashion inside of 3 years in a very good team (I assume we are going to be very good?) as two-thirds of you do is incrediably unfair on a couple of speculative kids.

I can't speak for the others but I took your words literally. ie 36 months down the track (not within the next 3 seasons although even then that is reasonable for at least an introduction). This means we'd be looking at season 2014 where we should expect a competent and consistent standard.

Thought it was interesting when we were chasing Hale that the talk was his value in terms of structure. In other words, his capacity to be a target, to provide a contest, and to get the ball to the ground for the crumbers to feed off. This seemed to be at least as much of the reason for chasing Hale than the number of actual marks & actual goals he'd get.

That's a very simplified role for a 200cm forward. And if Hale can do it, why not Spencer or Martin? It's not as if Hale is an absolute gun with much more ability or athleticism.

The main difference I can see, apart from Hale being a better kick, is that Hale knows better where & when to run to get to the contest or to make a contest, where Spencer & Martin get caught out of position too often and not even get to the contest. But can't that be remedied? Is it something that can be taught? Or perhaps it's more a matter of whoever's coming down the ground with the ball, not to bomb it aimlessly but with some sort of purpose, to the advantage of the big forward. So that the big forward has some idea of what's going to happen and where they should be, rather than work it out on the spot.

From what I have seen of Fitzpatrick he is coming from a long way back.

Fine then - 70% of you think the two kids will 'come on' by the end of 2014.

If we go by Jamar's standards we should expect them to 'come on' in 2018.

They are unrealistic standards from a couple of speculative kids to see one of them get there in half the time it took Jamar.

The second question is a very good question indeed rpfc. I hadn't considered it, on account of Jamar being an AA in his current role, but if we played Jamar as we were thinking of playing Hale, that leaves the door open for someone like Spencer to play Jamar's current role.

Clearly now with the new substitute rules Spencer could only make it as a number 1 ruck. You can't carry a player like him into a match as a second ruck.

However I'd still prefer to go with Jamar as the number 1 ruck and work on developing Stefan Martin. That's what I'd like, but I expect the FD to use PJ in this role instead, which I don't like.

The second question is a very good question indeed rpfc. I hadn't considered it, on account of Jamar being an AA in his current role, but if we played Jamar as we were thinking of playing Hale, that leaves the door open for someone like Spencer to play Jamar's current role.

Clearly now with the new substitute rules Spencer could only make it as a number 1 ruck. You can't carry a player like him into a match as a second ruck.

However I'd still prefer to go with Jamar as the number 1 ruck and work on developing Stefan Martin. That's what I'd like, but I expect the FD to use PJ in this role instead, which I don't like.

It was a very deliberate question because a few on here have intimated that Jamar should be that forward who rucks and I just wanted to get it in 'writing' who thinks it is just a swell idea to turn an AA ruckman into a back-up for a NQR ruckman.

Fine then - 70% of you think the two kids will 'come on' by the end of 2014.

If we go by Jamar's standards we should expect them to 'come on' in 2018.

They are unrealistic standards from a couple of speculative kids to see one of them get there in half the time it took Jamar.

It is also unrealistic to use Jamar as the only example of a ruck coming on and to use his progress as the benchmark for all others.

I don't think it's unrealistic to say a player of any type should be in and around the 22 5 years after he's drafted.

It is also unrealistic to use Jamar as the only example of a ruck coming on and to use his progress as the benchmark for all others.

I don't think it's unrealistic to say a player of any type should be in and around the 22 5 years after he's drafted.

You're right.

That is still 4 years away. And when it comes to ruckmen I think you should push it out by a year or two.

What do we do in the mean time?

I still think we will looking for this player in October next year.

It was a very deliberate question because a few on here have intimated that Jamar should be that forward who rucks and I just wanted to get it in 'writing' who thinks it is just a swell idea to turn an AA ruckman into a back-up for a NQR ruckman.

It's a more salient question than that I think. A player like Spencer, who clearly has the FD's faith, is really only going to flourish as a first ruck, so instead of [censored]-farting around with NQR back-ups like PJ, or even Dunn/Sylvia/Newton, putting Spencer in the team and giving him the majority of the ruck work might speed up his development and be the best 2-man combination we can come up with.

I'd still prefer to go with Jamar as the number 1 though.

I still think we will looking for this player in October next year.

Agreed.

Would you go for a Robbie Campbell?

I don't like ANY of the possible options from our current list (PJ, Spencil, Martin, Newton, Fitzt, Gawn). This is a BIG BIG problem for 2011. If we play the Russian like last year we won't get away with it again. If he goes down we are stuffed. Not only do we need the 2nd Ruck/Fwd we need a reasonable replacement 1st ruck if the Russian is injured. I've got to hope the FD have a plan B they are working on over the weekend. We will have to wait till midday on Mon. I'm wavering between half-full, half-empty at the moment. I never thought Hale would be a guaranteed solution, it was always a risk, but at least there was reason for some optimism. We must get someone new (mature), if only to give us more options.

Fine then - 70% of you think the two kids will 'come on' by the end of 2014.

If we go by Jamar's standards we should expect them to 'come on' in 2018.

If by 'come on' we're talking shown enough to prove to have a viable future and playing consistently at one level or another then I think 22 is quite reasonable. We aren't necessarily talking a dominating #1 ruck here (or are you?).

Footy quite simply isn't an exact science. When it comes to rucks, yes bigger players can take longer to develop and perhaps reach their optimum but to get to that point they would have laid the foundations - by 22 a club should have a pretty good idea. It comes down to the player in question and their opportunities as much as anything else.

Matthew Kreuzer has been in the system for just 3 yrs and has notched up 56 games. Definitely talented when he came on board but no more physically developed than an average ruck prospect. He played 23 games in his 2nd year. In no way am I suggesting the same bench mark should be in place for our guys, but it does show that setting rules in stone is pointless.