There is no God.

[Guest The Old Xaverian]

Are you so certain your club would have taken him had they had pick 1, 2, 3 or any picks before him? No. You wouldn't know the first thing.... Oh and as for WC recruiters, they have said publicly that had we taken Nicnat, they'd have taken Watts with their next pick. And you saw Watts play in the APS... Good. Well then you must know everything about the quality of the kid.

I doubt Collingwood would have (if they were in your position).

Rich & Hurley would have been their 2 most wanted.

I would cringe if I was WC, Melbourne & Carlton seeing Rich knowing they had the opportunity to draft him. Elite skills, elite work ethic. Hurley also has Watts covered.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

I doubt Collingwood would have (if they were in your position).

Sure. Why not. Every kid Collingwood have picked turned out to be a legend of the game haven't they? Sure you've got a good team and the future looks good for you but if you want to play with your willy while talking crap about how you're mob has it all perfect and we will no doubt pick two kids that should have gone in the mid twenties go do it on a Collingwood forum

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

Oh wise sage, what would that be? That they've recruited better?...

DD thanks for your response, I'd forgotton what it was like to discuss things with you.

I'm different to many here; I'm not interested in winning arguments and chest beating but rather finding the right answer. OX failed to discuss things when I tried and I'll just not bother discussing things with him again; shame really, we have lots to learn from the views of others. Ash34 (as he now is) sadly doesn't post because of the shyte he got but he was more insightful about Melbourne than about 95% of posters here. For those that don't know he supports Essendon. I thought OX might have been the same, but no, he's here to chest beat and he'll find many a person willing to provide him with many hours of fun, and that's fine if it's within the house rules.

But back to your response. I'll not answer all your points but I will two. You asked how you measure "going to the trough". Well, count the number of PP over the last 8 years would be a start.

And what can we learn from Collingwood? Well given that they have outperformed us so dramatically over the last 10 years or so I would have thought "plenty".

How do they develop their players so quickly?

What parameters do they use when recruiting?

What medical practices do they use to keep players on the field?

What leadership practices have they based their club on?

How have they structured their football department?

What personal mentoring have they put in place for players?

What are the conditioning programs they have for their players?

What do their players do outside football?

and on and on...

Now please don't list the "misdemeanors" of their players, that would be insulting to all. And I know they have monetary and draw advantages. But if you're so blinkered that you think we can't learn something from the more successful clubs then I'd be surprised. Adelaide is the other club I'd be looking at.

GF aside Collingwood have been hugely successful over the last decade without the assistance of draft concessions (beyond Thomas who I don't rate).

If you want to play tribal "mines bigger than yours" fine, I'm just not interested. I actually want the answers.

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

Rich has an elite work ethic? This the same kid that runs a 12 beep test? Rich has elite ball skills and kick, but he is doing it pretty easily at the moment. He only gets the ball 15 times a game and was tagged once, but unable to shake it. That doesn't suggest an elite work ethic.

I actually agree that Rich and Hurley could well have been at the top of your list, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are better players. Collingwood's time for challenging is now and they would have been looking at players that could contribute straight away, more or less. Plus they are both good body players, which Mick likes and suits Collingwood's slow gameplan well. Naitanui and Watts both required time to be able to match it at AFL level, which would have been a large disadvantage to a team in Collingwood's position. However it was not the slightest disadvantage to Melbourne who were able to take the more talented player with the luxury of giving him time to develop. The ceiling for Watts and Naitanui is significantly higher than that of Rich or Hurley.

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

I'd like to look at how they develop their players so quickly and what they look for when recruiting, because I think that these aspects are linked. I also think that it linked to how Collingwood plays the game and why they have never gone from bridesmaids to brides.

Malthouse likes to play avery contested, one on one style of game which requires strong bodies and a lot of discipline from his players. Malthouse is a very good tactician, which is shown by the way that he managed to shut Adelaide's run down after quarter time last weekend.

Since 2000, their first and second round draftees have been:

2000 - Didak, J Cloke

2001 - Cole, Davidson

2002 - Nixon, Shackleton, C Cloke

2003 - Morrison, B Shaw

2004 - Egan, Rusling

2005 - Thomas, Pendlebury, Stanley, Cook

2006 - Reid, Brown, Dawes

2007 - McCarthy

2008 - Sidebottom, Beams

Of those, there are a helluva lot of spuds. Not even ordinary players, but complete spuds. But if you look at their team on the weekend you'll see a common theme: their lack of player quality but their presence of team ethic. They rely on a very small amount of their players to provide all of their class, with Shaw, Pendlebury, Didak and Davis being the main ones. The reason why Sidebottom and Beams have been successful is because they are hard workers and are team oriented - how else does Alan Toovey get a game? That's why so many of their players have come from lower down in the draft, because they are hard workers first and foremost.

But Malthouse's game plan allows for these players to flourish while they would be exposed a great deal at other teams. Can you imagine Toovey at Melbourne, Hawthorn or Geelong? He'd be out of the team quicker than you could say "turnover and goal". But at Collingwood he's got a role because he does the team things all the time and their game plan allows players to turn the ball over but still not be exposed on the counter attack. But they have the classy finishers to be able to beat other teams when they turn it over.

I think that this arrangement will allow Collingwood to be consistently good, but will not do enough to win a flag. When they play teams that simply don't turn the ball over, like Hawthorn and the Bulldogs, they can be exposed for lacking class. Most of the top teams are there because they don't turn the ball over, and they don't have Buckley any more in the midfield.

[H_T 3,047]

I've seen Watts play numerous games in the APS. I also hold a close opinion with someone who coaches against him (in the APS) & is a WC Recruiter. Watts considering what was taken after him (i.e. Hurley) appears a mistake.

"Appears"....looks can sometimes be deceiving.

Sure. Why not. Every kid Collingwood have picked turned out to be a legend of the game haven't they? Sure you've got a good team and the future looks good for you but if you want to play with your willy while talking crap about how you're mob has it all perfect and we will no doubt pick two kids that should have gone in the mid twenties go do it on a Collingwood forum

Well the future looked good. The Pies are currently down at three quarter time to Geelong in the Preliminary Final '09 by 34 points and aren't they struggling, they need a miracle. Already the one eyed faithful are booing "Neon Leon" for every time he gets a touch (about one every quarter). Yes, that's right the All Australian (who didn't really deserve to get named ahead of LeCras of WCE.....in my book) is getting booed by his own faithful. It's not the least bit surprising really. They won't however "boo" Swan who is being held, nor Beams who Old Xav holds in high regard as a pick, nor Ben Johnson who cannot kick, nor Thomas who has done absolutely nothing again. Some pick.

Looking very much forward to QB'day '10.

Malthouse should step aside for Bucks. What a decision that was.

[Luck Lucy 0]

There is a God and she proved it tonight by giving the Magpies their right whack tonight after teasing them for seven days and seven nights.

Halleluyah!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I doubt Collingwood would have (if they were in your position).

You "doubt" Collingwood would have? Well you can take your "doubt" somewhere it holds some weight. You know exactly NOTHING about what Collingwood would have done with pick #1. And rightly so. They're not Richmond. They don't leak to their nuff nuff fans. If WC wanted one of NicNat or Watts with pick 1, then the Pies wouldn't have known any better. Add to that Watts was one of few highly rated players that was actually from Melbourne. I like how you come on here as nothing more than a long-winded Collingwood fan and try to tell us not only what YOUR club would have done, but what OUR club would have done. Clown.

Rich & Hurley would have been their 2 most wanted.

They would have, would they? Based on what? Because both were the FIRST to show something?!! Funny that. Well since you know them so well how about you provide some sort of account then, of EXACTLY what was going through their heads at the time of drafting? And when Watts becomes the player he's going to become, what will you say then? That Collingwood knew all along that he was the best, and would have taken him? Please...

I would cringe if I was WC, Melbourne & Carlton seeing Rich knowing they had the opportunity to draft him. Elite skills, elite work ethic. Hurley also has Watts covered.

Aaaah. No. Not us. Melbourne fans, coaching panels, administrators... at the most they've said that he seems a good player. That's about it. Why?

Because NOBODY CARES who wins the Rising star. Makes no difference. The best players going round didn't win one. And when it comes to Watts, we rate him as high as the Hawks rated Hodge during his wilderness years. And look what happened there. The coaching department rate him this well too. None of them have cringed for even a moment. Why? Because they all KNEW Rich and Hurley were the most developed players going in the first round, and were most likely to be the first to play good footy. Cringing? No... I think they'd be quietly pleased with themselves that the generally accepted knowledge turned out to be correct.

DD thanks for your response, I'd forgotton what it was like to discuss things with you.

I won't compartmentalise here. Just to save space.

I'm different to many here; I'm not interested in winning arguments and chest beating but rather finding the right answer.

---- Fair enough. I find both fun. I have a lot of time, you see.

OX failed to discuss things when I tried and I'll just not bother discussing things with him again; shame really, we have lots to learn from the views of others.

---- This is where we differ. We have a lot to learn from the views of others WHO KNOW THINGS. You asked this buffoon questions when all you needed to do was have the quickest of looks to see that he was playing one-upmanship. We all knew, why didn't you? And you chide ME for misbehaving? Like I said, I'll continue to meet opposition supporters head on when they come here to s#&tstir.

Ash34 (as he now is) sadly doesn't post because of the shyte he got but he was more insightful about Melbourne than about 95% of posters here.

---- He was super. I wouldn't say that he was more insightful than other posters about MELBOURNE. But he certainly knew how to post politely, and with generosity and understanding that this is a Melbourne forum. It's no wonder he had so much respect and longevity here. What I don't get is that you show this filth the same respect when it's CLEAR to everyone that he's showing us none.

I thought OX might have been the same, but no, he's here to chest beat and he'll find many a person willing to provide him with many hours of fun, and that's fine if it's within the house rules.

---- Yeah. Of course. I do like it. It adds a little spice. Don't get me wrong, I PREFER to learn a bit, but as RR has suggested in the past, you can count on one hand the posters here who actually do that. In the meantime, I like being a "fan" in the innocent sense of the word. If I were a Pies supporter I'd have hoped strongly that we could get up tonight. The difference is, even if I was following the Pies, I wouldn't have gone onto a supporter website of the wooden spooner and try to explain to them how my club is so much better.

But back to your response. I'll not answer all your points but I will two. You asked how you measure "going to the trough". Well, count the number of PP over the last 8 years would be a start.

---- Is the difference really that great? Going to the trough, I'd have thought, involves high picks that you qualified for. And it also counts picks you traded established players in their PRIME for. eg, the Hawks didn't have all that many PPs, but they offloaded Rawlings and Hay, and I think that counts as "going to the trough"

And what can we learn from Collingwood? Well given that they have outperformed us so dramatically over the last 10 years or so I would have thought "plenty".

---- Dramatically? eh? How many flags have they won? Ok... they have gotten to 2 GFs and 2 Prelims... During a time when we were paying NOWHERE NEAR all of our salary cap, we had no money, no support, and none of the bottoming out. We still made more than our fair share of finals. I applaud the question though, and here's the rebuttal.

How do they develop their players so quickly?

---- They haven't always. Their talls have taken as long as everyone elses (Cloke and Anthony are really not THAT great). They have a raft of smalls that either have had YEARS to come good (Didak, Davis) and some other smallish players who play good footy because, well, they're smalls. The same as all the other small players. So in answer to your question, first I'd say that they have other strengths that mean they're not RELYING on young players. And mostly, they have a great, GREAT leader and coach in Mick Malthouse... Why do they have him? Money. What have we learned we need to do to come up to their level? Have money.

What parameters do they use when recruiting?

---- The same as everyone else. Only they have a LOT more resources, scouts, recruiters, minds on the job. ie.... more money. And as far as their methods. They passed on Jurrah. Would they pick him up now?

What medical practices do they use to keep players on the field?

---- Probably LITERALLY hundreds. That cost a lot of money.

What leadership practices have they based their club on?

---- Leadership? They have leaders? Sure they do... Eddie, one of the best ever presidents, I'll give you that, Mick Malthouse (money) and Bucks (money). After this who do they have leading? Nick Maxwell? Please...

How have they structured their football department?

---- Probably very cleverly, since they have so much more money, and thus so many more people doing jobs. I'm not sure what we can learn from this, as it's going to be a GOOD long time before we get there money wise. We can learn, I guess, by example... but we can only ever get so creative, and so far.

What personal mentoring have they put in place for players?

---- Ok. This has me lost. Personal mentoring? You must mean on field, because off field I'm not sure they've shown themselves to be that far ahead of the average footballer. On field mentoring... I can only think is older players showing leadership. We don't have older players, especially now. We made a choice to get rid of most of our mature heads. I think we could teach them in this field.

What are the conditioning programs they have for their players?

---- This changes almost bi-annually. They set the trend because they have the money to send coaches that don't even WORK for the club yet (Buckley) to another country to learn from American football, and European leagues in better conditioning programs. When we can afford this, then we will have something to learn. It's these improvements in conditioning that have lead to a great upturn in players health and all that... but what do we REALLY learn by watching their list take dips in ice-baths in the Lexus centre? That we would buy EXACTLY that if we could afford it? I'm seeing a theme here.

What do their players do outside football? Now please don't list the "misdemeanors" of their players, that would be insulting to all. And I know they have monetary and draw advantages. But if you're so blinkered that you think we can't learn something from the more successful clubs then I'd be surprised. Adelaide is the other club I'd be looking at.

---- Ok. Of COURSE we can learn from our competition. But no more than any other club. My point is, they have not been SO far ahead of us it's ridiculous. There is MORE to be learned from teams who have actually WON a flag. I look at the Lions, Hawks, Geelong for all this. For all their money, and resources, and joi de vivre, they have just been pantsed in a prelim final. I want us to go all the way, not be that limited. And unlike others, I don't think they're really getting better at such a rate that they're going to be winning a LOT of flags in the near future. IMO we will win a flag before they do. So who will be learning from who then?

GF aside Collingwood have been hugely successful over the last decade without the assistance of draft concessions (beyond Thomas who I don't rate).

---- And we have had a LOT of draft concessions? (other than 2007-2009, that are nowhere near coming to fruition) Also... what has happened to the clubs that HAVE had draft concessions? Shock horror... They've taken all before them. I don't even run a football club and even I can see that.

If you want to play tribal "mines bigger than yours" fine, I'm just not interested. I actually want the answers.

---- So why are you looking here? No-one on here, not even Hannibal, can help you with that. We're debating only what we see from our vantage point. In essence, we're talking about a more civilised "mine is bigger than yours."

We have a long way to go, that much is true. What we're doing though, is following a PROVEN model for success. What we will need to do to go better than Collingwood is a LOT of luck, and twice as many good decisions. To have the kind of success that they've enjoyed with just an ok list, we'd need the next Malthouse, for a start. We will need to get him on the GROUND LEVEL too. Not buy him from another less financially sound club, as we just can't match them in the shopping stakes. We also have to hope he's as loyal as Neale. On the plus side, we've proven we ARE loyal to our coaches. Give me the next big coach in his FIRST gig, and a WHOLE lot of on-field talent and we have the two biggest ingredients.

I do have to say though, that I don't think we have any more to learn from Collingwood than ANY of the other clubs, besides maybe basket-cases like Richmond.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Jesus. Too long. Sorry Fan.

As for you OX. In all seriousness, there's nothing at all funny about your team losing a prelim. It hurts, we all know this. To give your side the credit it deserves, it fights hard and excels where it shouldn't, and deserves, on sheer persistence, to be in the top 4 this year. Unfortunately this is just one of those years where the comp has had 2-3 sides that were MUCH better than the mere mortals beneath them. While the Pies do have a habit of unsettling the biggest and scariest sides in the comp (1958 anybody?), there really was only ever 2 sides that deserved to play in the GF this year. (honourable mention to the Dogs)

I know which side/list out of MFC and the Pies I'd prefer to watch and follow over the coming years, but that aside, Pies fans should at least be proud of how they flew the flag this year. Enjoy the H&A season next year, I'm can make a pretty safe prediction that you'll be thereabouts again, which means a lot more short-term and mid-term fun for you than us.

[SidVicious 130]

Enjoy the H&A season next year, I'm can make a pretty safe prediction that you'll be thereabouts again, which means a lot more short-term and mid-term fun for you than us.

Of course Collingw&%$ will be thereabouts again in 2010 but only because the AFL always produces a programme made in heaven for them. Like this year when they played 3 of the 2008 top 4 once (played the Dogs twice - second time in round 22). They rarely travel outside of Melbourne and get the best playing times. This means they have a swag of games against the lesser sides and, when they have a good run with injuries they can string some wins together giving some of their supporters bragging rights on fan forums of wooden spoon teams. That's really heroic - much like their team's performance last night.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

To The Old Xaverian:

I'll see your Cloke and Anthony and raise you a Watts and Jurrah.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

---- Ok. Of COURSE we can learn from our competition. But no more than any other club.

I think you learn from the successful clubs and not the unsuccessful clubs. That said, there are things to learn everywhere, not only what went right but what went wrong? For example, look at drafting 2004 Richmond v Hawks. Apply that to Melbourne drafting 2009 - it's not that easy. Also what have Sydney and Saints got in common that allows them to get their players on the park? How have Collingwood got a lot of recalcitrants playing eg Dick.

---- So why are you looking here? No-one on here, not even Hannibal, can help you with that.

Because there are some great posters here who present ideas I've not thought of - that's how I learn. Hannibal ( thought it was Hannabal) has taught me a lot; Axis of Bob talks about things in ways that enlighten, WJ has a different slant on things, Grazman is quality. But we all support the same team and are subject to a level of groupthink (although Hannibal will deny he is!!) so even some lesser posters from opposition teams can be interesting. I thought OX might be one. I was wrong so I move on.

Oh, and DD - I agree, your response was too long!!

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

A quick memo to FAN, May you & others posters on here stop referring to Old Xav as OX. I find it offensive in terms of David Schwarz. There is only one ox around here. I know its pedantic but old Xav does not deserve such a name.

Old Xav, do wallow in your grief today, realizing that Collingwood are not that good, regardless of all your hot air and paragraphs.

Travis Cloke, what a totally memorable 100th Game! (well i thought it was great) A complete liability.

Neon Leon Davis played a great Home & away season, but again when it counted in the real battle he was useless (again) booed by his own filth too, such a sporting mob you are at collingwood-all class.

Presti the great Presti got Smashed after half time. Time to hang up the boots i would think.

Kicked the first 2 goals & then only 4 more for the night..Great Telly it was.

1 Flag in 50 years- A FACT. We here at melbourne although a long time a go i admit have won 3 Flags in that same 50 years (2 of them against Collingwood)

But we don't tell the world about our greatness each day, or believe the Earth's axis revolves out of Victoria Park.

Because we know it doesn't-simple.

BTW the Melbourne Football Club Helped finance the Building of Victoria Park in the day so your Mob would have a dung heap to call home, i read this gleefully in a collingwood History Book so it must be true....

I Repeat....Collingwood-The Most over rated organization on Earth..

See you on Draft Day & QB 2010 Old Xav i will be in the MCC Reserve waiting for you.

Such a shame that ch 7 did not cover last nights game. Would have been great to hear Bucks Commentate that Train wreck. The Team he will soon inherit.

"Wake up...Time to Die" Bladerunner.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I think you learn from the successful clubs and not the unsuccessful clubs. That said, there are things to learn everywhere, not only what went right but what went wrong? For example, look at drafting 2004 Richmond v Hawks. Apply that to Melbourne drafting 2009 - it's not that easy.

Yup. Though I would say that people like you and I learn only how to read the game better as FANS. Not how good drafting works. I don't think any recruiter would learn ANYTHING from Bigfooty or 'land. That's worth keeping in mind I think.

Also what have Sydney and Saints got in common that allows them to get their players on the park? How have Collingwood got a lot of recalcitrants playing eg Dick.

I'm willing to suggest it's maturity of body with the Saints and Swans. In both this years case and when the Swans were red hot. They had a lot of mature names that were just good honest battlers. They were persevered with and grew into themselves. Also their smaller home grounds might play a part. Not sure how... :D As for Dick, I'm not sure what you mean by "recalcitrant."

Because there are some great posters here who present ideas I've not thought of - that's how I learn.

Yup. And like I said, they're of some benefit when it comes to how to read the game of football through a television and at the ground. And how to predict accurately, with historical and statistical analysis, what's going to happen in the future. But they don't actually provide an knowledge of the inner sanctum. Just information as it comes to hand.

Hannibal ( thought it was Hannabal)

I think he changed it.

But we all support the same team and are subject to a level of groupthink (although Hannibal will deny he is!!) so even some lesser posters from opposition teams can be interesting.

Like I said, I'm all for that. I'm even all for them coming on here and respectfully congratulating themselves, as long as it's done with respect. But once it gets past the "interesting" stage as you put it, there's a time to come on and make things happen. 'land and 'ology are supposed to be the one place we go to GET AWY from Collingwood. One of theirs comes here and makes noise? I'm sorry if it offends some peoples' delicate sensibilities but I'll be meeting them head on. The pies loss was no surprise. Neither is it a surprise that Old Xav has not returned. Gutless.

I thought OX might be one. I was wrong so I move on.

Yup. You were wrong. I was right. :D

Oh, and DD - I agree, your response was too long!!

Yeah. Geez. I'm embarrassed. This ones lovely and short though. Sorry about that.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

I think the side that won on Saturday, was younger than the side that Collingwood played against on QB. If you add Beams (19) & Pendlebury (21) who are automatic inclusions, the Collingwood side is a great deal younger than Melbourne's side. Like Sidebottom & Beams in 08, I have no doubt we'll outdraft you yet again. Our players are simply developed much better in a winning culture.

You collingwood fans really are dumb, and have short memories, there are a lot of young player at the pies, this means very little really as for rs that means less then nothing ,st kilda has had about 1 rs in the last three years, mate Chris Hudson best mate Allen, is the pies best player stop him stop collingwood, he will have a heavy tag next year, Thomas is the most over rated player in the afl, bate is a far better player, if bate played with collingwood he would be raved about. pies are over rated one win out of 6 games vs teams in the top 4, if they had to play the other teams in the top 4 more often in the home and away season they would not made top 4, next year they will not be top 4 carlton will beat them 2 times essendon will lest win one hawthorn will beat them, the pies have had a easy draw in the last three years, but that is changing because the big teams they play two times a year are all going to be better teams.if they make top 4 next year i will run drown smith street with my underwear on. and i have only got one word for last nights performance embarassing.