Our Ruck Stocks

[Ryan Dee 140]

I will umpire this one: RR wins with a KO.

DD - PJ can do a lot of things, but none well.

Jamar can ruck well, play forward, and assert himself on contests.

PJ is a 6'10 winger-trying-to-play-ruck.

This is spot on. PJ is one of those players who when you talk about him your just not sure where his best position is. Shows some good things but never has shown us real potential in certain area's.

[JACKATTACK 17]

I will umpire this one: RR wins with a KO.

DD - PJ can do a lot of things, but none well.

Jamar can ruck well, play forward, and assert himself on contests.

PJ is a 6'10 winger-trying-to-play-ruck.

I disagree, PJ can kick, can ruck and is mobile, he is just not able to do it regularly. Jamar is still a better player but he has been a long time coming, and I wouldn't take 1 good performace playing forward as a sign that he is good in that position, he's still one of the worst set shots in the AFL.

As for which Rucks should stay and which should go?

I say keep them all, and look to draft another one. We are a long way from a solution, and we should solve it by weight of numbers.

Edited August 24, 2009 by JACKATTACK

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I disagree, PJ can kick, can ruck and is mobile, he is just not able to do it regularly. Jamar is still a better player but he has been a long time coming, and I wouldn't take 1 good performace playing forward as a sign that he is good in that position, he's still one of the worst set shots in the AFL.

PJ not only does not do it regularly he just has not nailed a position and he has had more opportunity than Jamar. Jamar might be a long time coming but PJ is not in sight of the station.

Over his career he has kicked 27.10. Hardly a bad shot at goal. 5.0 is 5 goals straight from shots out around 40 metres. It was a good effort

We should be looking to rookie another ruck. I am not sure there is a capable big man in this draft.

[Roost It 1,434]

I will umpire this one: RR wins with a KO.

DD - PJ can do a lot of things, but none well.

Jamar can ruck well, play forward, and assert himself on contests.

PJ is a 6'10 winger-trying-to-play-ruck.

Big call

[Roost It 1,434]

I disagree, PJ can kick, can ruck and is mobile, he is just not able to do it regularly. Jamar is still a better player but he has been a long time coming, and I wouldn't take 1 good performace playing forward as a sign that he is good in that position, he's still one of the worst set shots in the AFL.

As for which Rucks should stay and which should go?

I say keep them all, and look to draft another one. We are a long way from a solution, and we should solve it by weight of numbers.

I really hope the club has other ideas. Although I understand the sentiment, lots of average players does not make a good team. Lets hope Meesen can recover fully and push for selection as No. 1 ruck. If Jamar gets traded, maybe Martin and Meesen can ruck whilst we wait another 2 years for Spencer to develop. Personally I'd delist PJ, I just can't see him in a premeirship side in the future but that's just me. Add another rookie ruck and see what happens.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Then why the melodrama. Hatred is defined in Dictionary.com as "Intense animosity or hostility". The words you split hairs mean something much different.

Alright RR. You are a fair dinkum wally. You know that, right? I have read more displeasure about PJ over the last half of this year than I have Brock, Bruce, Jamar and Robbo. As far as I'm concerned that's hatred, by 'landers standards.

I really couldn't give a rats about what the dictionary says on THIS topic, nor what you call "melodrama."

Good enough yet? Or are we still clinging to the idea that anyone, besides you, cares about the "definition" of a word. You KNOW how I meant it. It's meant in the same way other posters post it. Fair dinkum. Get your hand off it.

You raised Sylvia. I explained the frustration with him is the delivery of talent. With PJ its a matter of what he has to deliver

Again. Why? Why bother?

You complained that PJ lacks opportunity but he has been the only big man fit at some points this year. His true colours were shown. And a good year last year as the best 2nd ruckman in the competition

?????

YES his true colours were shown!!! He came in, in the middle part of the year, and played some really good footy in a variety of roles, at which time you were NOWHERE to be seen!!! At the time I didn't call you on it, or go hunting for you, because, really RR, I don't care enough!! And I had also hoped you'd be decent enough, while not admitting CLEAR fault when it came to judging PJ's quality, to at least give him a fair go should his form tail off. True to form though, you decide you hate a player... which you've done here, mostly I feel based on one individual's assessment from within the inner sanctum of another club... then used whatever stats you like to prove your point.

Hang my head in shame?? Really?? Wait for it. The most goals PJ has kicked in a game is 1. He has achieved that remarkable feat on no less than 17 occassions. Remarkable consistency. And for the record in three past games against Sydney he has kicked a total of 1.1.

Wait for it. Sydney, round 4, 2006... I was sitting behind the goals, so I know I saw this. He kicked 2 in the first quarter (half maybe? Where do you find these stats?), against a team that would win the flag, soon after putting his body on the line and outing himself for the season.

I don't get the opportunity to look at stat websites. I log on and off when I post here to cut costs. Long, boring story, to do with circumstance and a hefty net price tag. The short of it is I rely on memory alone. I believe I'm talking about a match, last year I think, where he took a bunch of marks. Could have been Manuka, could have not. I remember a lot of those marks ended up as goals as he took them forward of centre, and had assumed they were kicked by him. Apologies for making the mistake.

Jamar kicks 5 goals zip in a game up forward against a team that is 5th on the ladder. Its a decent collect how ever way you want to deride it. And when you compare it PJ up forward well then.

I JUST finished reading a comment you used on Jaded, where you joke about there being no defence? Do you care to acknowledge what I wrote earlier or are we going to AGAIN play this game where RR wastes everyone's time by ignoring a simple fact that puts this to bed? I'll give Jamar credit as a forward OVER PJ when PJ is given the same opportunity, against the same side, on the same day. I've seen Jamar play plenty of minutes forward, particularly last year when Miller was doing it more or less alone, maybe with bit of Wonna thrown in, and he missed shots from 15 out, dropped sitters, led like treacle...

Jamar plays one good game... One that I don't think many expected. Not even you. YES it's a decent collect, but until PJ is given the same opportunity... which we can be sure he just about NEVER will, since defenders rarely go to sleep like that... then I won't concede he's unable to do it. Besides, do you really think Jamar will do it again?

Given we have Rivers, Frawley, Garland, Martin and Warnock up back I doubt it unless it was done recently for experimentation. I think your comment is an founded as your Manuka example. If anything PJ does often does not mind the opposing ruckman when they drift into the F50 and PJ has shown poor decision making done back and costly on the clanger.

No. He played minutes, not whole games down back. I saw encouraging signs. Rather like watching Martin pay a quarter here or there on a big boy. Bottom line, he's not going to play there much, so we can let this go. I don't think either Jamar or PJ really enter into the defender debate. Neither is likely to ever play there much. I remember being impressed on the day, BTW, because he was on one of Brown or Bradshaw and I was shielding my eyes.

So we know Jamar can ruck and can play forward. There a ??? about PJ in both areas. But we can be comforted in the fact that PJ is better all round kick than Jamar.

No. We don't KNOW that. You just decide this on your own. Jamar is a better ruckman, largely because he's played a lot more in that position than at any other. And one good game does not a forward make. In fact, I would imagine Jamar would only be good for 1 or 2 goals in a functioning and complete forward line AT BEST. (The weekends forward line, not being a functioning one)

For two players who have both had limited game time.

You mean percentage game time? Or games played? Jamar, when selected, plays ruck MUCH more than anything else. PJ plays all over the place. Give him a break.

Jamar 72 games 27 goals 10 points

PJ 63 games 17 goals 18 points.

Not conclusive but a reasonable indication Jamar is better kick where it counts.

Not conclusive, not by a long shot, and basically meaningless. Jamar's first 63 games he showed me a LOT less than PJ's. Not that I expect you to agree, or even read this.

PJ not only does not do it regularly he just has not nailed a position and he has had more opportunity than Jamar. Jamar might be a long time coming but PJ is not in sight of the station.

As far as I'm concerned, and a others as well, he is RR. Simple. Besides, PJ has not nailed down a position because he never gets to play one for a whole quarter.

Over his career he has kicked 27.10. Hardly a bad shot at goal. 5.0 is 5 goals straight from shots out around 40 metres. It was a good effort

OK RR. Let's put him up against PJ in a goal-kicking contest. I know who I'd back in, especially from longer distances. Oh, and when PJ gets his shot at playing FF for a whole game against my grandma (or Thornton) we'll see if his goal-kicking stats don't suddenly look a whole lot better.

We should be looking to rookie another ruck. I am not sure there is a capable big man in this draft.

The only thing we agree on. Maybe a lateish pick. Personally, I don't think of Martin seriously as a ruckman (though he's a good stand in, to be sure) and have seen more as a KP player from him. And with him off that list, we only have 4 ruckman, 2 of which are in their footballing infacncy in terms of games played. That's always seemed a bit thin to me, player quality aside...

Jesus. I can't believe we keep getting into this. There's a reason I ignore you generally on ruck threads. It's like talking to a brick wall. I comment and discuss with other posters, as usual, because I believe PJ is given a bit of a raw deal, and I like to defend him. Don't get me wrong. It's not gotten to Bruce-proportions... PJ is having a bad season, to be sure... but NO worse than a handful of our new golden boy, Jamar. To me that seems askew. PJ is still our second ruck option, like he was at the start of the year. Jamar has had a good year. That's great. But what happens if PJ has a good year next year, and Jamar doesn't? Will you jump ship?

I say it's worth persevering. Just like others do. Let it go RR.

[Akum 2,660]

Depends what you mean by "ruck". At present we're judging our rucks by what they do at stoppages. But as we move up the ladder, it's around the ground that counts much more.

These days, even the best tap rucks in their best games get a hitout effectiveness % no higher than the low 20s. Most bounces are stalemates, it's just a way to restart the game after stoppages. And hitouts often bear little relationship to clearances, which is much more important. The tap-ruckman is only there to stop the other team having a free hitout.

The question is, which of our present tap-ruckmen is going to give us something - ANYTHING! - around the ground? This is where we're REALLY lacking for rucks. Which of them shows a capacity - or at least a potential - to mark kick-outs, to drop into the space in front of leading opposition forwards, to provide some strength & protection in the packs and through the centre, take a big mark in either goalsquare, and so on? If you exclude hit-outs, who is the best around the ground?

We don't yet have the answer, because none of the 5 really give us anything at the moment, and that's why DB used Jamar, PJ, Spencer & Martin in the way he did on Saturday.

Jamar is our best tap-ruckman, but DB kept him away from stoppages to show us what he could do in general play only. He stunned everybody, probably including himself, by showing that he may well be capable of much more than he's given us so far. It's not so much getting 5 goals against a smaller man in Thornton, but the fact that he got 2 or 3 of them after the ball hit the ground. On the other hand, he only had 6 disposals the whole game. How do you evaluate that in terms of his potential to give us more in general play?

The most athletic is easily Martin, who probably has the greatest around-the-ground potential of the 5, but he, Spencer & Meesen are so very raw at this stage. They don't play like natural around-the-ground ruckmen yet, and they're still only learning about positional play, use of their body, decision-making and so on (that's where Kreuzer, for example, is of most value to his team; he's not much at stoppages). These three have the most upside, and if any of them really improves their performance in general play next year, we won't be asking this question again at the end of 2010.

DB gave Spencer a huge responsibility on Saturday, and he acquitted himself surprisingly well, considering how far back he's coming from. He's got a number of obvious deficiencies, but has shown a capacity to work on them.

PJ is good in terms of getting into the right positions around the ground, and at this stage I think he does make more of a contribution in general play than Jamar, but makes far too many mistakes, and when he makes a mistake, it looks bad bad bad. If (and it's a huge "if") he can cut out his mistakes, and perhaps it's just a matter of confidence, then he'll be much better than Jamar around the ground.

For me, I hope it's MArtin, because his sheer athleticism provides an X-factor that the others don't have. He's showed a lot in flashes at various times this year, but he doesn't get enough of it, because he doesn't get into the right positions - YET. But at the moment, while Jamar's the clear standout at stoppages, there's no clear standout in around-the-ground play.

On the other hand, there's no ruckman that we could draft with potential that's anything near Martin, Spencer & Meesen for the future. It's the same old story of whether they can turn potential into performance.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Akum

[gOLLy 401]

You always need 4 ruckman on the list. 2 experienced and 2 up and comers.

[Swampfox 190]

Cannot understand this notion that PJ is a ruckman

I am having trouble figuring out what PJ is good at

Athletically he offers quite a bit for a big guy but we are playing Football which demands certain skillsets

The only possible position i can see for PJ is as a Tall Utility

Martin is being groomed for this role and i believe he can be effective for us

Sorry but PJ doesnt have the footy smarts to be the player some of you guys think he is

[titan_uranus 25,043]

I think the biggest indictment on Johnson is this: both PJ and Martin have been tried in all sorts of positions: forward, defence, ruck, on-ball. And in every one of them, Martin looks, plays, and performs better than Johnson. I don't think there is anything PJ can do that Martin can't. Plus Martin has a lot of development in him. So I can't justify keeping PJ on the list when we have a player like Martin who is basically his superior.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

If Jamar does go back home would anyone consider the notion of Jamie Charman in the PSD if he goes that way. He could give us about 3 servicable years while Meesen and Spencer continue to develop. Just a thought?

[Doggo 32]

Correct weight Dappa Dan, PJ kicked 2 goals in that 2006 match against the Swans, same game he did his shoulder.

As ardent a supporter of Paul as I am, I choose to no longer fight to argue my point that PJ "WILL" become a good player, simply because i no longer truly believe it. But i do still hold hope for him bouncing back- stranger things have happened, and as long as he's on the MFC list, i will support him 100%. Agree the animosity towards PJ this year has risen massively and many have 'jumped ship', but much of this is of his own doing. And sometimes, though not always, it does cross the line into that player "hate" or disrespect.

IMO he does deserve a lot of the criticism though, but not because of poor ruckwork. It's decision-making and skills, his supposed strengths, and a lack of contested marking, that have been his greatest downfalls this year.

But PJ's ruckwork this year has improved out-of-sight. How people can't see that is beyond me. I pay a lot of attention to watching ruck contests, maybe more than most, and i've no doubt that, while he's no world-beater, PJ's no longer a 'mug' in the centre square. His performance just last week against Sandilands vindicated this. He's not as good as Jamar there, but he is the 2nd best 'tap' ruckman we have, just ahead of Spencer, and well ahead of Martin and Meesen. Ruckwork is not the issue here though.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Doggo

[Doggo 32]

Depends what you mean by "ruck". At present we're judging our rucks by what they do at stoppages. But as we move up the ladder, it's around the ground that counts much more.

..........

PJ is good in terms of getting into the right positions around the ground, and at this stage I think he does make more of a contribution in general play than Jamar, but makes far too many mistakes, and when he makes a mistake, it looks bad bad bad. If (and it's a huge "if") he can cut out his mistakes, and perhaps it's just a matter of confidence, then he'll be much better than Jamar around the ground.

Great post Akum, all very good points, and the right questions to be asking too. The answers will unfold themselves over time, will just have to wait and see

Just on PJ's errors this season.

I'm so sure that it is a confidence because his decision-making and skills, prior to 09, have generally been his strengths as a footballer. In six seasons of AFL prior to this year, his smarts and 'small-man' skills were never questioned, and his foot-skills, along with athleticism, were his greatest asset. He rarely made any of the same mistakes he's made this year in 07 or 08. Not sure why this has happened or how he can rectify it, but as someone who has closely followed his career since juniors, this has actually been very out-of-character for him.

Earlier in his career it was his contested marking and ruckwork that were the main issues he needed to work on. In 2008, he improved his contested marking greatly, but that has once again regressed. And as his ruckwork has improved this season, his former strengths of clean skills and good decision-making have now become his weaknesses.

It's like he's capable of doing all those things he needs to, but never getting all those parts of his game to click at once. Last year, his contested marking, decision making and skills were good, but rucking needed to improve. This year, rucking has improved, but marking and skills have regressed, etc etc.

Confidence, or state-of-mind, surely must be the issue. The best games he's played this year were as the lone ruckman and last week, when he was selected ahead of Jamar by the FD to do the job on Sandilands.

A bit of faith is all he needs, but the FD, much like many of the supporters, must also have their doubts.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

...Let it go RR.

Pot calling kettle black Dan. For someone that wants to dispute my assertions on Jamar, you put up little else on PJ being his equal beyond "would have, could have might have". But you know what in six years of senior football he just hasn't. And the only excuses supporters of PJ has is just that... excuses. He has all these nice to have "talents" yet noe of the need to have talents and thus cannot make any impact on a game. I am sure when PJ's career is finished, his supporters will say he was never given the opportunity. Nothing could be further from the truth. He has had a gilt edged opportunity this year with injuries to Spencer, Jamar and Meesen. Thats real opportunity that not even Jamar has had. And as for game time, PJ has played nearly every game and on the ground nearly all the time due to lack of options. He he has shown he is just not good enough. Dan, I have let PJ go along time ago when I recognised where he was at. Maybe its you that need to let to go.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The best games he's played this year were as the lone ruckman and last week, when he was selected ahead of Jamar by the FD to do the job on Sandilands.

And some of the worst games as well. Any thought that Jamar was not fit? <_<

[sylvinator 96]

Would trading for a ruckman be an option.

I think Jacobs from Carlton would be a really good trade target.

He's more than capable of being a 2nd ruckman, and I think has scope to develop into a number 1 scope as well. Would be competitive should Jamar be injured and is only impoving.

Carlton would be open to trade, with Kruiser, Hampson and Warnock also at the club.

Pick 30 should get it done? We need a 2nd ruckman, I'd give up pick 30 with the knowledge we don't have to waste several picks trying to develop one of our own. Plus, we'll have Gawn developing in the wings

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Would trading for a ruckman be an option.

I think Jacobs from Carlton would be a really good trade target.

He's more than capable of being a 2nd ruckman, and I think has scope to develop into a number 1 scope as well. Would be competitive should Jamar be injured and is only impoving.

Carlton would be open to trade, with Kruiser, Hampson and Warnock also at the club.

Pick 30 should get it done? We need a 2nd ruckman, I'd give up pick 30 with the knowledge we don't have to waste several picks trying to develop one of our own. Plus, we'll have Gawn developing in the wings

Kruezer is down with a knee injury. Warnock is proving a dud with Carlton and Hampson is so so.

Jacobs was sharing the load with Kruezer pre injury so he wont be available.

And pick 30??? Surely you jest. If he was traded Carlton would want a first rounder.

And the way MFC play with Jamar....Jacobs would only get a 15 minute run per game. I am not sure he can play forward.

So its big bikkies to pay for a player that gets splinters and is an injury contingency for two years.

Prefer other means and options to deal with rucks after Jamar.

[Inner Demon 1]

How about we draft Max Gawn, Jack Fitzpatrick & Jake Spencer to see if one of them might work out as an effective #2 ruckman???

[H_T 3,049]

How about we draft Max Gawn, Jack Fitzpatrick & Jake Spencer to see if one of them might work out as an effective #2 ruckman???

Genius.

[The Insulter 0]

I dont understand how people could even mention the words trade and jamar in the same sentence? He is close to All Australian and I would back him for our B&F! His work down to moloney and others has been brilliant.

Spencer is awkward,PJ was horrible on Saturday. We should keep him at Casey as a backup just in case Jamar goes down and give Martin a chance to play the flexible ruckman/forward/back for when Jamar needs a rest.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

I dont understand how people could even mention the words trade and jamar in the same sentence? He is close to All Australian and I would back him for our B&F! His work down to moloney and others has been brilliant.

Spencer is awkward,PJ was horrible on Saturday. We should keep him at Casey as a backup just in case Jamar goes down and give Martin a chance to play the flexible ruckman/forward/back for when Jamar needs a rest.

In my defence I only talked about trading Jamar if he wanted out, which clearly he didn't. Amazing how good he's ben this season.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

How about we draft Max Gawn, Jack Fitzpatrick & Jake Spencer to see if one of them might work out as an effective #2 ruckman???

I like the way Inner Demon thinks!