Our Rucks

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I believe that Jeff White was told during the season his time was up at MFC last year early in the season. In the final weeks of 2008 season, he was asked if he would like to have a one year contract. He declined. The mood by some senior players and the coaching staff was very poor and the players lost respect, especially the ones who are not there. JW is now playing in QLD.

I wonder what mite have been?

My understanding was that White was told he would be not offered a contract and was played much of the season at Sandy.

He was recalled at the end of the year and given a fair send off for a player who had the game pass him by.

MFC held onto him for too long.

Would there be any other reason why 15 other clubs did not pick him up? Hmmmm.

You comment on the players and coaching staff is without substance or merit.

[Melbourne_777 0]

Correct. Add to that hand and hip injuries from last season.

It's PJ's 50th match this weekend, and just off the top of my head, thats from around a possible 130 games. That's a horrible run with injuries. The only year i can remember him being able to play the majority of 22 games was in 2005, when he won the Liston at Sandy. Even the last two seasons he has missed 6 weeks both years.

That's right Doggo, last year he broke his hand and that had to have a hip operation at the end of the season. So before everyone starts bagging him etc, have a look at his injuries etc...give the poor bloke a break!

[Pello 1]

I know.

But he is one of the best 2nd rucks in the AFL. What is PJ in the side for and what position has he shown even the smallest capability of nailing?

PJ has more effective ruck taps than anyone else at the club. The trouble with PJ is his best is great and his worst is horrible. He is not only inconsistent week to week but quarter to quarter within a game. He needs to work on narrowing this gap because we have seen that the guy has obvious ability.

The position PJ is capable of "nailing" is full forward. He leads very well, he is fast, he is tall, he is strong, can take a good grab and would be a pain in the backside for most full backs. That would also take the pressure of Robbo and Miller (and even bloody Bate who shouldn't be in the team). PJ should be instructed to bring the ball to ground when out of position so the likes of Maric and Petterd can crumb.

[deanox 8,692]

PJ has more effective ruck taps than anyone else at the club. The trouble with PJ is his best is great and his worst is horrible. He is not only inconsistent week to week but quarter to quarter within a game. He needs to work on narrowing this gap because we have seen that the guy has obvious ability.

The position PJ is capable of "nailing" is full forward. He leads very well, he is fast, he is tall, he is strong, can take a good grab and would be a pain in the backside for most full backs. That would also take the pressure of Robbo and Miller (and even bloody Bate who shouldn't be in the team). PJ should be instructed to bring the ball to ground when out of position so the likes of Maric and Petterd can crumb.

he has the highest percentage of effective taps, but does that equate to most effective taps, especially on a league scale? he often has 9 hit outs 22% to advantage, which means only 2 to advantage. as opposed to other ruckmen with 25 hit outs, 16% to advantage, which is 4...

[demonique 314]

There is another option, is our mid field rove to the opporstion rucks!

I was just thinking the same thing !!

[Steamin Demon 370]

Why is there all this discussion, Play the two available guys that are employed as ruckmen SPENCER & JOHNSON. Simple !!

[Fat Tony 4,465]

Why does everyone on Demonland always get so concerned about the ruck? Ruckmen are going the way of the Dodo and the ruck has probably become the least important position on the ground in the AFL. Look at the stats which show the percentage of effective hit outs. Even the very best ruckmen are only effective around 30% of the time.

Another indicator is the Brownlow medal. Once upon a time a ruckman would win the Brownlow medal every few years. Not anymore. Since 1993 the only Brownlow winner who played in the ruck was Adam Goodes. And he isn’t even really a ruckman.

There are two key reasons why ruckman are becoming less important these days: 1) there are far fewer stoppages these days because umpires will pay holding the ball more often if it doesn’t come out; and 2) players are not kicking to contests very often (other than in the forward line).

IMO our two best options for the ruck (Johnson and Martin) are playing this weekend anyway. Both have the athleticism and skill to be valuable contributors around the ground. They also provide the benefit of allowing us to play an extra midfielder. The impact of an extra midfielder is not as easy to see as the extra ruckman, but it surely makes a difference.

Bailey should also continue with the tactic of using Dunn or Morton as the third man up at stoppages around the ground. This was very effective last week against Geelong and it should nullify any disadvantage that Johnson and Martin have against Dean Cox in the hit outs.

None of Jamar, Meeson and Spenser will ever become like Cox or David Hill. I even doubt that any of them are athletic enough or skilled enough to become reasonable AFL players. The key reason why Cox is so good because he was born gifted, not because of any special development by the Eagles. He would be much the same player today if he were drafted by any other club. (Just the same as Jamar would still be slow and uncoordinated if was at West Coast.)

I think the Richmond versus Brisbane (who only have Mitch Clark) game this weekend will be a good indicator as to the importance of the ruck. While the Tigers might win, I wouldn’t be betting on Patterson, Graham or Simmonds being the difference.

[Guest petjud]

Why does everyone on Demonland always get so concerned about the ruck? Ruckmen are going the way of the Dodo and the ruck has probably become the least important position on the ground in the AFL. Look at the stats which show the percentage of effective hit outs. Even the very best ruckmen are only effective around 30% of the time.

Another indicator is the Brownlow medal. Once upon a time a ruckman would win the Brownlow medal every few years. Not anymore. Since 1993 the only Brownlow winner who played in the ruck was Adam Goodes. And he isn’t even really a ruckman.

There are two key reasons why ruckman are becoming less important these days: 1) there are far fewer stoppages these days because umpires will pay holding the ball more often if it doesn’t come out; and 2) players are not kicking to contests very often (other than in the forward line).

IMO our two best options for the ruck (Johnson and Martin) are playing this weekend anyway. Both have the athleticism and skill to be valuable contributors around the ground. They also provide the benefit of allowing us to play an extra midfielder. The impact of an extra midfielder is not as easy to see as the extra ruckman, but it surely makes a difference.

Bailey should also continue with the tactic of using Dunn or Morton as the third man up at stoppages around the ground. This was very effective last week against Geelong and it should nullify any disadvantage that Johnson and Martin have against Dean Cox in the hit outs.

None of Jamar, Meeson and Spenser will ever become like Cox or David Hill. I even doubt that any of them are athletic enough or skilled enough to become reasonable AFL players. The key reason why Cox is so good because he was born gifted, not because of any special development by the Eagles. He would be much the same player today if he were drafted by any other club. (Just the same as Jamar would still be slow and uncoordinated if was at West Coast.)

I think the Richmond versus Brisbane (who only have Mitch Clark) game this weekend will be a good indicator as to the importance of the ruck. While the Tigers might win, I wouldn’t be betting on Patterson, Graham or Simmonds being the difference.

I am afraid you are slightly wrong in the assessment of Cox, I saw him live when he was first drafted over in the west, if you think that Spencer looks slow and uncoordinated.....you would not have believed Cox....he even admitted himself on his first run with the club the only player he beat home was Scott Cummins.....Cox was drafted for his potential and height and he has been allowed to develop.......one of first kicks from general play nearly decapitated a couple of spectators

[MadAsHell 4,088]

Assuming we go with the Johnson/Martin combination on sunday which it looks like we are does anyone know how far off Spencer and Jamar are? I'm assuming Bailey would want Jamar to have at least 2 games with Casey before playing with Melbourne?

[Guest petjud]

Assuming we go with the Johnson/Martin combination on sunday which it looks like we are does anyone know how far off Spencer and Jamar are? I'm assuming Bailey would want Jamar to have at least 2 games with Casey before playing with Melbourne?

Spencer was in the photo gallery on one of the threads in the air taking a mark at training yesterday so assume he is fit, Bailey probably didn't want to risk the flight over and back......so soon after returning from injury.....unless it is a fox and the interchange bench suddenly changes at 5pm tonight..........

[olgreydingo 51]

My understanding was that White was told he would be not offered a contract and was played much of the season at Sandy.

He was recalled at the end of the year and given a fair send off for a player who had the game pass him by.

MFC held onto him for too long.

Would there be any other reason why 15 other clubs did not pick him up? Hmmmm.

You comment on the players and coaching staff is without substance or merit.

I am not saying what we did was right or wrong, time will be the judge.

The source- the horses mouth, somewhat modified, but he was asked about another year.

[Jack Jack 415]

Spencer was in the photo gallery on one of the threads in the air taking a mark at training yesterday so assume he is fit, Bailey probably didn't want to risk the flight over and back......so soon after returning from injury.....unless it is a fox and the interchange bench suddenly changes at 5pm tonight..........

Can someone confirm if Spencer is actually eligible to play? He's still a Rookie and I thought that he was elevated only while Jamar was on the LTI list?

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

But he is one of the best 2nd rucks in the AFL. What is PJ in the side for and what position has he shown even the smallest capability of nailing?

IMO, A KP defender (on the right-sized opponent of course, like any defender) and also a FF, or an extra tall depending on who's in the side. Simple enough for you? Not everyone agrees with you Rhino, hard as it may be to believe.

Seven years and around 60 games and we dont know what he can do. We certainly know he cant ruck.

I know what he can do. He puts his big arse on the line week in week out. Has a sensational straight kick, particularly with set shots. Is awesome below his knees. Loves a chase. Pretty quick hands. He has a bit of the small-man-in-big-man's-body syndrome, but he's done a lot to alleviate this, including learning a bit about marking over his head. Certainly more than Dunn has learnt. Runs all day and is remarkably quick both in a straight line and in the sidestep. We've seen him outrun Aker and Sherman, which takes some doing. As for his rucking... I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've seen him ruck well in games. I know he'll never become Everitt, but I'd prefer a weak ruckman with his skillset who can add something around the ground. Which he has in the past, whether you wish to ignore it or not.

Its makes it more distressing when we are left with our No 4 ruck option who is not a ruck against the best ruck in the AFL.

4th Ruck option? You can't be serious. Even you are now showing how little you ACTUALLY know about him, and the list. First of all, if he WERE our 4th ruck option then why was Spencer still a rookie? Not only that but why is he the only ruck out of all 4 that has PLAYED EVERY GAME?!!! But no, you're right, Dean Bailey knows less than you.

Its amazing that you have been in heavy support for a player who you dont know what he can do and you dont believe he can ruck. I am equally pumped for you.

Amazing? What's amazing is the interest you show in me... Besides, I wouldn't call it heavy support. I like him, and up until now I've never found anyone willing to argue the point. And RR, mate, I know more about what he CAN do than you, of that I'm completely certain. I've watched him VERY closely since he came to the club, and nothing I've seen so far has tested my faith in him. For every error, and every loss of form, there have been spirit lifting passages and strong matches aplenty. If you wish to ignore them... well... I really couldn't give a rats.

Are you as bored as me? I'm done with this topic, with you and I anyway.

PJ has more effective ruck taps than anyone else at the club. The trouble with PJ is his best is great and his worst is horrible. He is not only inconsistent week to week but quarter to quarter within a game. He needs to work on narrowing this gap because we have seen that the guy has obvious ability.

Look at that. I'm not alone. How about that?

Why does everyone on Demonland always get so concerned about the ruck? Ruckmen are going the way of the Dodo and the ruck has probably become the least important position on the ground in the AFL. Look at the stats which show the percentage of effective hit outs. Even the very best ruckmen are only effective around 30% of the time.

Oooh look at that. Another.

[Melbourne_777 0]

Good calls Dappa Dan, nice to see someone else who supports PJ

[kemp 0]

dunn to play third man up when johnson is rucking and then run with cox. who else is worth tagging?

[1858 219]

he has the highest percentage of effective taps, but does that equate to most effective taps, especially on a league scale? he often has 9 hit outs 22% to advantage, which means only 2 to advantage. as opposed to other ruckmen with 25 hit outs, 16% to advantage, which is 4...

Good question.

The better the tap ruckman you are, the greater your ability to spoil your opponent or tap to a 50/50 when the bounce/ball up/throw in favours your opponent. Jamar (who IMO is easily our best tap ruckman) doesn't have the highest effeciency in taps purely because he gets his hand on the ball more often (with his reach) in situations that don't favour him and this stops his opponent whilst mathematically hurting his numbers as far as efficiency goes. The more he spoils his opponent in situations where they are advantaged by the bounce that is a win to Jamar and needless to say this is of more value to us than not getting a touch on it at all and the opposition ruckman winning the tap - stats do not reflect this. PJ IMO mostly gets taps in situations that favour him and naturally you are more likely to tap it effectively in this situation where it falls in your lap.

The moral of the story is that you should judge a ruckman by how their opponent performs as well.