Having been present at both Melbourne vs Hawthorn, and Cousins vs Collingwood, I believe that the question that needs to be asked is; Are we actually in a better position (football wise) than Richmond. Comparing our youth that is coming through in Blease, Bartram, Buckley, Martin, Bate, Jones, Wonna, Maric, and Watts; together with players such as PJ, Moloney, Sylvia (?), Chook, Miller, Bell (?), Garland, Warnock; and then the oldies and seasoned players such as Junior, Green, Bruce and Robbo, to that of Richmondfc is our flock actually in a better position for a tilt at the flag in the near future?

Though both sides have only played one match each, this could be hard to tell and the topic is sure to draw a lot of criticism from many people on here, however I firmly believe that the intensity, fortitude and skill level displayed was substantially higher than what Richmond demonstrated during their match last night. The Tigers lacked intensity and made terrible skill errors. Though it's easily arguable that by losing when being up by 33 points, we too showed exactly the same attributes as the tigers, I really believe we showed a lot more than what Richmond did last night.

Personally while our club may have off field issues that really do need resolving, our Football department is certainly not in the worst position of all AFL clubs. Throw in players such as Valenti and Spencer, and I think that our side really is starting to take the shape of a side that could become something special, and something that other clubs will fear in the (hopefully) near future.

Having been present at both Melbourne vs Hawthorn, and Cousins vs Collingwood, I believe that the question that needs to be asked is; Are we actually in a better position (football wise) than Richmond. Comparing our youth that is coming through in Blease, Bartram, Buckley, Martin, Bate, Jones, Wonna, Maric, and Watts; together with players such as PJ, Moloney, Sylvia (?), Chook, Miller, Bell (?), Garland, Warnock; and then the oldies and seasoned players such as Junior, Green, Bruce and Robbo, to that of Richmondfc is our flock actually in a better position for a tilt at the flag in the near future?

Though both sides have only played one match each, this could be hard to tell and the topic is sure to draw a lot of criticism from many people on here, however I firmly believe that the intensity, fortitude and skill level displayed was substantially higher than what Richmond demonstrated during their match last night. The Tigers lacked intensity and made terrible skill errors. Though it's easily arguable that by losing when being up by 33 points, we too showed exactly the same attributes as the tigers, I really believe we showed a lot more than what Richmond did last night.

Personally while our club may have off field issues that really do need resolving, our Football department is certainly not in the worst position of all AFL clubs. Throw in players such as Valenti and Spencer, and I think that our side really is starting to take the shape of a side that could become something special, and something that other clubs will fear in the (hopefully) near future.

Frawley too.

The Tigers lacked intensity and made terrible skill errors. Though it's easily arguable that by losing when being up by 33 points, we too showed exactly the same attributes as the tigers, I really believe we showed a lot more than what Richmond did last night.

Personally while our club may have off field issues that really do need resolving, our Football department is certainly not in the worst position of all AFL clubs. Throw in players such as Valenti and Spencer, and I think that our side really is starting to take the shape of a side that could become something special, and something that other clubs will fear in the (hopefully) near future.

IMO we are just ahead on list but behind on age & experience.

They have made big inroads over the last 2 seasons I think, with recruiting Cotchin & Vickery.

In 2011 I think we'll overtake them.

Finally a post that shares my optimism, as I have stated before, myself and my young lady have only been seriously watching footy for the last eighteen months, the reason we are Melbourne supporters was going to watch them play in a couple of games, as we live near the G', and we liked the look of some of the young players and a chance to grow with them and Dean Bailey's honest appraisals both on Tv and in the newspaper.

The more we learnt the more excited and optimistic we became.

They have picked the correct coach and now he has had the chance to reshape the football department along with CC, we can look forward to the improvement.

Already last Saturday, we had Cheney, Frawley and Spencer who have had a year to learn DB's ethos and to grow as footballers , and they came in and did a good job, we had no song and dance in the newspapers about new gun recruits, just guys who are being coached and trained properly.

Similar with Watts and Blease, give them a year.

I think with the rookies also they are being lined up for if and when the Gold Coast messes up the draft, Valenti is a good player, agreed a bit one dimensional but he has another two years to imporve and grow before we have to lose him.

And the other two rookies are young guns from the bush, have spoken to Rhys Healey a couple of times (at the AGM and Intraclub), the club has got his next year or so mapped out, down to what his ideal playing weight should be, he has no expectations apart from playing regularly with Casey and learning, then hopefully getting a shot.

Danny Hughes obviously had something before injury struck him down, so he gets another chance.

All the other draftees were exactly what we needed, just a bit of time and experience

Everybody seems to forget especially with Jones and Morton, they are still only young.

I do think that maybe not this year, but early next year we will see exactly what Dean Bailey makes him a good coach.

Everybody seems to forget that Collingwood were in exactly the same position a couple of years ago, but Malthouse who is a really good coach, did a bit of pruning but also let the young kids devellop, giving them bits here and there, from last night, I never thought Shannon Cox was that good a player, but you can see he is, and Malthouse did the same, he didn't play his draftees in the first game but in the second, exactly what Bailey is doing.

I think Richmond dropped the ball when all energies were put into securing Cousins, the rest of the team apart from Raynes seemed to have picked up from where they left off last year, blowing hot and cold.

Last Saturday even though we faded in the last quarter, we improved in the first three tenfold, with tackling, kicking presuure etc.

Yes I do think we are ahead of Richmond

I dont. But that is not necessarily a condemnation of MFC but a recognition that Wallet is 5 years into a rebuild and I reckon he has built a list with holes. Its no wonder they canned and dismissed Greg Miller. I think we will better than Richmond given the same period. We are about 3 to 4 years behind them in the development cycle.

Richmond are dependent on the following players: Richardson (34), Simmonds (31-32) and Bowden (31-32). There in the twilight and they dont have ready replacements for any of them. They lack on field and off field leadership. There selection of Cousins maybe a win or loss for them. Time will tell. There process to recruiting him and their handling of Polak was bizarre to say the least. Brown has not recovered from his terrible leg break and IMO the game is catching him out and his contribution limited.

The next generation are young and promising with Deledio, Cotchin and Foley. However when the senior players go in a couple of years too much will be left up to them. Vickery will take 3 years to show whether he is a capable big man.

I think the Tigers has mistimed their run to capitalise on Richo's and Simmonds final years. They may push the 8 put they could easily miss out. Its Wallet's final year and his possibly last role of the dice. Interesting to see what he does.

Having been present at both Melbourne vs Hawthorn, and Cousins vs Collingwood, I believe that the question that needs to be asked is; Are we actually in a better position (football wise) than Richmond. Comparing our youth that is coming through in Blease, Bartram, Buckley, Martin, Bate, Jones, Wonna, Maric, and Watts; together with players such as PJ, Moloney, Sylvia (?), Chook, Miller, Bell (?), Garland, Warnock; and then the oldies and seasoned players such as Junior, Green, Bruce and Robbo, to that of Richmondfc is our flock actually in a better position for a tilt at the flag in the near future?

Though both sides have only played one match each, this could be hard to tell and the topic is sure to draw a lot of criticism from many people on here, however I firmly believe that the intensity, fortitude and skill level displayed was substantially higher than what Richmond demonstrated during their match last night. The Tigers lacked intensity and made terrible skill errors. Though it's easily arguable that by losing when being up by 33 points, we too showed exactly the same attributes as the tigers, I really believe we showed a lot more than what Richmond did last night.

Personally while our club may have off field issues that really do need resolving, our Football department is certainly not in the worst position of all AFL clubs. Throw in players such as Valenti and Spencer, and I think that our side really is starting to take the shape of a side that could become something special, and something that other clubs will fear in the (hopefully) near future.

I tend to think we are behind Richmond for this year but will overtake them soon. I was surprised at how bad they were at the end of that game. Overall I thought the quality of their game was higher, though this tends to happen when intensity is down and the coaches flood their backlines.

They have a number of players they rely on in every age category, which will work in their favour this year but soon they will lose the older ones: Richo, Brown, Bowden and Cousins, and that will leave a bigger hole than the one that was left for us at the end of 2006. Deledio would be the best player on our list if he played for us.

Fact is we don't have players like Richo and Nathan Brown who can take a game by the scruff of the neck and win it for you. Right now Richmond are still finals contenders despite their poor finish last night. We're rank outsiders until we can prove that we know how to regularly win matches and we're certainly not near there ATM.

'Rhino Richards' you say that you think that we are behind Richmond at the moment and then go on to point out how bad you think Richmond are.

What do you really think of us? Not filling me with any hope here.

I dont. But that is not necessarily a condemnation of MFC but a recognition that Wallet is 5 years into a rebuild and I reckon he has built a list with holes. Its no wonder they canned and dismissed Greg Miller. I think we will better than Richmond given the same period. We are about 3 to 4 years behind them in the development cycle.

Richmond are dependent on the following players: Richardson (34), Simmonds (31-32) and Bowden (31-32). There in the twilight and they dont have ready replacements for any of them. They lack on field and off field leadership. There selection of Cousins maybe a win or loss for them. Time will tell. There process to recruiting him and their handling of Polak was bizarre to say the least. Brown has not recovered from his terrible leg break and IMO the game is catching him out and his contribution limited.

The next generation are young and promising with Deledio, Cotchin and Foley. However when the senior players go in a couple of years too much will be left up to them. Vickery will take 3 years to show whether he is a capable big man.

I think the Tigers has mistimed their run to capitalise on Richo's and Simmonds final years. They may push the 8 put they could easily miss out. Its Wallet's final year and his possibly last role of the dice. Interesting to see what he does.

Yep pretty good assesment of the wasteful tigers

reminds me so much of the Saints and the missed oppurtunities pre Alves

Wallace has never been a good player development coach and it shows

'Rhino Richards' you say that you think that we are behind Richmond at the moment and then go on to point out how bad you think Richmond are.

What do you really think of us? Not filling me with any hope here.

I think RR just about nailed it on the head. They are a serious chance of making the 8 this year and if they don`t they will be in search of a new coach. We will be bottom 2 or 3 again IMO but certainly a far better outfit than what we were last year. We will still lose a lot of games but I doubt we will cop as many embarrassing pastings as last year.

However the Tiges are well advanced in their rebuild compared to us

'Rhino Richards' you say that you think that we are behind Richmond at the moment and then go on to point out how bad you think Richmond are.

What do you really think of us? Not filling me with any hope here.

Read my last post re development phases. Richmond have been re building for 5 years. The problem is they have not recruited well in that time and now have a patchy list IMO to take advantage of their aging stars.

We are in early year 2 of that phase. We have cleaned out the champs of yesteryear who were critical to our success under ND, White, Neitz, Yze and Co. Big shoes to fill. We have a number of senior players in their twilight, Whelan, McDonald. Unlike Richmond we dont have stars at the moment. We need to develop them. We have some very good prospects coming through at the moment. It will take some time and patience.

What were you expecting this year? Be hopeful but be realistic.

Personally, based on what i saw Richmond serve up against Collingwood. I can't see them making the eight. They may of missed a few players, but there wasn't many missing. Will be interesting to see their position come round 8-9. The knives might be out...

Having said that, Richmond have their noses in front of our Demons.

Personally, based on what i saw Richmond serve up against Collingwood. I can't see them making the eight. They may of missed a few players, but there wasn't many missing. Will be interesting to see their position come round 8-9. The knives might be out...

Having said that, Richmond have their noses in front of our Demons.

I don't really think we can take that much away from that Thursday night match. Disposals from both sides were pretty shocking.

Both sides had some really good passages of play, but other than that...

But yeah its fair to say that Richmond are somewhat ahead of us with their rebuilding. Recruiting a superstar midfielder certainly didn't hurt ether.

Personally, based on what i saw Richmond serve up against Collingwood. I can't see them making the eight. They may of missed a few players, but there wasn't many missing. Will be interesting to see their position come round 8-9. The knives might be out...

Having said that, Richmond have their noses in front of our Demons.

i find it quite funny ppl are bagging the tiges on the game against the filth remember that they played in WA last Sunday hot conditions and fronted up on Thursday night

along with a cousins who has been out of it for what 500 odd days of AFL and we base it on that ,

sad enough our list falls well short of not just richmond but every team in the afl

toges are ahead of us slightly because theyve developed a promising forward line in rewolt morton and there midfeild is potential A grade with foley cotchin deledio and now cuz.

toges are ahead of us slightly because theyve developed a promising forward line in rewolt morton and there midfeild is potential A grade with foley cotchin deledio and now cuz.

Imagine how much worse they would have been since 1994 if it had not been for Richo.

There is no replacement in sight. Riewoldt is a forward, sure, of whatever calibre but not a FF or CHF.

When Richo retires, they are going to sink into the abyss.

Im actually going to suggest RR has pretty well sumed it up. Our potential is greater given where we are in the cycle..but believe Richmond will have more success this year..and boy they need to capitalise on it as they will fall a few steps behind once all that experience and "goto" leaves that club.

The tiges will be knackered in the next couple of years with a number of stars retiting from the game, Richo, Simmonds, Bowden, Johnson and Brown. They do not appear to have replacements in the wings. Reiwoldt seems like he will be ok but not to many other potential KPP's. Whereas we seem to have a number of young talls developing including Watts and Spencer.

Their midfield has more talent than ours at the moment but we have a few good young players in the mid. I would like to pick up an A grade midfielder in the next draft. I think that will be possible as we are likely to get a top three pick in the 2009 draft.

Overall i think we have an excellent young list developing.

Stability at a club is pretty important and the amount of productivity achieved at a club during the stable times is a good measure. The Tiges have had Wallace for a while now and not too many off field dramas so you would expect them to be reasonably well placed at this point in time. I agree with all the posters who put Richmond in front of us right now (list wise) but project us to do greater things and have a better list once we have had the same amount of time to build. We are entering what seems to be a stable period (finance aside) with the coach and people at the club. Richmond are not only coming near the end of their list development and looking for results but they are probably nearing the end of their window of stability if they don't improve on the field. If it all falls in a bundle for the Tiges this year then Wallace will be a major talking point and the Tiges will be in trouble quite simply because their productivity during their stable period was not good enough.

I'd rather be in our shoes.

Richmond are clearly a better side than us right now but I think that's comparing apples with oranges, as others have said.

As I've said before, we'll be in a far better shape than they are when our list is at the same point in the 'cycle'.

It's not simply that we are rebuilding. We dont have elite players of the Richo and Nathan Brown to go with the young blokes, Hawks had Cambpell Brown, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Crawford as well as the batch they recruited from 2004 onwards. We have decent players like Green, Davey, Bruce, Whelan, Wheatley and McDonald but none are elite.

We really are starting from the beginning, hence we cannot afford the luxury of recruiting a certain type of player, because we need them everywhere, Forwards, Rucks, Mids, Flankers, Depth Players, our key backs is probably where we are advanced on other teams in the comp.

One thing to note re Richmond, they have 6 players over 30 (Richo, K.Johnson, Brown, Simmonds, Bowden and Cousins) , 2 of which have played their whole careers at the club. The tiges just arent good at developing their own, see the Melbourne Demons pre Bailey.

We need to avoid easy sells to supporters like Cousins, or Moorcroft or Pickett, or Sampi. Imagine we picked Sampi instead of taking the hard option and picking a pretty much complete unknown in Stef Martin.

Bailey has us on the right track and does not squib the tough decision (Johnstone trade), unlike other leaders around this country.

I dont. But that is not necessarily a condemnation of MFC but a recognition that Wallet is 5 years into a rebuild and I reckon he has built a list with holes. Its no wonder they canned and dismissed Greg Miller. I think we will better than Richmond given the same period. We are about 3 to 4 years behind them in the development cycle.

Richmond are dependent on the following players: Richardson (34), Simmonds (31-32) and Bowden (31-32). There in the twilight and they dont have ready replacements for any of them. They lack on field and off field leadership. There selection of Cousins maybe a win or loss for them. Time will tell. There process to recruiting him and their handling of Polak was bizarre to say the least. Brown has not recovered from his terrible leg break and IMO the game is catching him out and his contribution limited.

The next generation are young and promising with Deledio, Cotchin and Foley. However when the senior players go in a couple of years too much will be left up to them. Vickery will take 3 years to show whether he is a capable big man.

I think the Tigers has mistimed their run to capitalise on Richo's and Simmonds final years. They may push the 8 put they could easily miss out. Its Wallet's final year and his possibly last role of the dice. Interesting to see what he does.

Oh dear, Hannabal needs to teach someone a lesson.

Once? Slight mistake.

Twice, pushing it.

Three times? Special.

Once Richo, Brown, Bowden, Simmonds and Johnson retire Richmond are going to have to do another mini rebuild. In all seriousness there list management in my opinion is the biggest joke in the AFL.

One wears red & blue, the other yellow and black.

One is 151 years old, the other 101 years old.

One has a good core of supporters who remain loyal, the other teams supporters jump on big time when they're on song to finish 9th!

HT, in a recent post didn't you just, correctly, lament the fickelness of Melbourne supporters?

I hardly say we can be typecast as more loyal than Richmond fans, after the rubbish they've had to put up with