Our Ruckmen

[Doggo 32]

Given PJ's encouraging performance in the forward half, and Dean Bailey's reluctance to use him as a ruckman today... would this suggest that we may have found a permenant position for PJ? I wonder if DB's intentions are to keep Jamar in the side next week against the Lion's? Or will he be dropped and PJ play 2nd ruck again? Or will White get the chop after another uninspiring performance? So many questions, so few answers...

I actually thought Jamar was the better ruckman of he and White today, in terms of his actual ruck tap-out effectiveness. Our midfield seemed to be able to read his taps more naturally, and generally we seemed more competitive when he was contesting in the middle. But, as is the way with Jamar, to go with his 20-odd hitouts today, he only gathered 6 disposals, a couple of them dodgy, and was non-existent around the ground. His only influence is purely in the ruck contest. This lack of versatility is an area of his game he has not been able to improve on, and likely never will. He's like a shorter, slower version of Aaron Sandilands. But, somehow he was still more effective than White today.

JW had a very poor game IMO. Clearly outpointed by his own 'once-upon-a-time protege', he often took too long to dispose of the ball when he had it, or made silly skill and decision errors, and was completely nulified in the ruck by Jolly. His possesion count was down on previous weeks too, and he got less hitouts than both Jolly and Jamar.

Now, White is considered the "#1 Ruckman" at the club- has been for the best part of a decade, and is one of the higher paid, more senior players at the club. He is 30 (i think?), has played 250 games, was AA and been a club champion... etc etc. In other words, he's a well respected player at the club with an impressive career honour roll, and is expected to perform at a high level every week as the mentor to our younger guys PJ and Jamar. He's the automatic selection for ruck eack week.

His performance today was not good, and while his stats have been impressive so far this season, his influence has been almost non-existent.

This is where the debate gets interesting...

Given that it is unlikely White will be around after next season (or maybe even after this season), and Jamar is still contracted next year, and White was poor today...PJ is likely to always be more a forward/2nd ruckman, and Meesen hasnt shown much but not yet been given (or earnt) his chance and is contracted next year too...

Does anyone else think its likely White may be dropped this week before Jamar? Or after the break?

I've loved watching Whitey over the years, but he is just not the player he used to be anymore, and his disposal and decision making has hit the slide. I now genuinely wonder whether its better having him or Jamar in the side. Not because i rate Jamar either, which doesnt say much for White these days. I really dont rate Jamar at all and he has had a very long time now to show something that he never has (that he can play footy). He would surely be considered an 'endangered species', despite his contract status. But given his contract status, and the way White has been playing (and the fact White is in no way part of our future)...

What do people here think is the most likely/more desirable outcome for the last 10 weeks of the season for these two players, Jamar and White, as well as Meesen?

Scenario A: White is played as the #1 ruck, with PJ #2, and Jamar coming in on the odd occassion like today, when DB wants to play all 3. If this were the case, it would seem almost certain that Jamar's contract will be paid out at years end and he be delisted, and White probably play one more year in 09. We then draft one of Naita or R. Warnock, and Meesen/Spencer are retained.

Ruck stocks '09 A: White, PJ, Naita or Warnock, Meesen, Spencer (rookie).

Scenario B: Like today, White/Jamar sharing the duties 50/50 with PJ playing full time in the forward line. In this scenario, it gives Jamar a chance to save his career and honour the last year of his contract with a strong finish to the season, and Jeff will probably play the year out and ask for another year. However, PJ's development as a ruckman will be stalled. And Jamar is no guarantee to cement himself as an AFL standard ruckman and could still be delisted if he doesn't show some improvement. Meesen/Spencer retained.

Ruck stocks '09 B. White, Jamar, PJ, Naita/Warnock, Meesen, Spencer ®

Scenario C: A "rebuild" of our ruck division happens over the last 10 weeks. White is dropped and not re-selected in the side unless he forces himself back in (ala Yze). Jamar and Johnson split ruck duties 50/50 (like Hawthorn's Campbell and Taylor), Meesen is given a game when DB wants to play PJ up forward, and White (is asked) to retire at years end.

Meesen possibly delisted, Jamar possibly traded/delisted. We also pick up both of Naita or R. Warnock. Spencer retained.

Ruck stocks '09 C. Jamar (possibly traded as part of a deal involving Warnock), PJ, Naitanui, Warnock, Spencer ®

IMO, scenario A seems most likely but least beneficial to our future list management, with B next, and C least likely but most benefical.

Will White play out the year because 'he deserves it' for his contribution over the years, or will PJ/Jamar/Meesen get more opportunities and responsibility at White's expense, with a view to the future?

NOTE: This post is not intended in any way to be a "Jeff White bashing" post. Just a constructive discussion...

[Jaded No More 68,973]

Jeff White is struggling big time. He has no impact in the ruck contests anymore. At least Jamar occasionally will tap the ball to advantage. He also does little around the ground and takes far too long to dispose of the football.

I know he's given us years of excellent service, but his time has come and we need to learn to play without him. 10 years of over-reliance on one ruck has left us without a competitive ruck option. We traded both Jolly and Simmonds, somehow hoping White will be effective forever.

PJ is developing nicely but he is not a center-bounce ruckman. He is not strong enough, and he doesn't get his hands on the ball enough. He can be used to take throw-ins around the ground, and that's about it. Jamar provides a strong presence in the middle of the ground, but turns invisible thereafter. Neither of these players are going to provide any long-term rucking solutions. As for Meesen, I wouldn't have a clue who or what he actually is.

I'm hoping to see less and less of White before he hopefully calls it a day at the end of the season. He deserves to retire with his dignity, and while he is still servicable, and I'm not suggesting we should make him play out his career at Sandy, but certainly he has got to take a step back and let Jamar be first ruck for the rest of the season. That way, either Jamar will use the experience to become a decent player (unlikely, but anything is possible), or he'll gain some trade value and we can use him as bait at the end of the season. PJ can stay up forward or even down back. At least he is learning to take overhead marks now... slowly.

[Doggo 32]

PJ is developing nicely but he is not a center-bounce ruckman. He is not strong enough, and he doesn't get his hands on the ball enough. He can be used to take throw-ins around the ground, and that's about it. Jamar provides a strong presence in the middle of the ground, but turns invisible thereafter. Neither of these players are going to provide any long-term rucking solutions. As for Meesen, I wouldn't have a clue who or what he actually is.

I would really like to see PJ and Jamar used in the same fashion as Taylor and Campbell at Hawthorn. Neither of those two are anything special, but together they are a formidable combination.

I see PJ's natural position to be as a forward/ruckman, and think he could learn a lot from spending some serious time in the guts. He's never really been given that opportunity to lead the ruck division, or at least even be an equal partner in it. A 50/50 ruck combo will ensure that we never again grow an unhealthy reliance on any single player as we did with White, and allows our ruckmen to develop more freely.

[praha 11,240]

PJ was never that good of a tap ruckman to play ruck in the center and is too tall and immobile to play as a KPP. Jamar is good at one thing and one thing only, and that's taping the ball. He should be void of all other contact of the football during games. PJ should probably play around the pocket like he did today and do the rucking in the forward 50.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Naitanui plays a part in the future of Jeff too...

Given the youth policy AND the fact that clubs like the Saints have shown they like recruiting SUPER - old ruckmen, I'm all for trading Jeff, despite his long years of good service. I think he'd really benefit from a change of atmosphere. An early third rounder or an upgrade of a second or first rounder would be a good return given we have Jamar, PJ, Meesen, Spencer and maybe Naitanui AND Warnock coming in...

I think PJ would be one of the better second ruckmen in the league. He fills in in the guts, has the engine and work ethic to make his presence felt, and today made a premiership defence look second-rate at times when he was a forward target.

I love his work and think he's a vital part of our future. But we need a starting ruckman who can develop into a dominant player in a few years. Naita or Robbie could be that. White won't be playing in the AFL in 3 years.

[BAMF 4,385]

Whites age makes his trade value almost nothing.

The Saints traded pick 90 for Steven King and Charlie Gardiner.

White should, and probably will, step down at the end of the year.

I think we could get a third round pick for Jamar.

If we get R.Warnock we would be very foolish not to either include Jamar in the deal or trade him afterwards.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Whites age makes his trade value almost nothing.

The Saints traded pick 90 for Steven King and Charlie Gardiner.

White should, and probably will, step down at the end of the year.

I think we could get a third round pick for Jamar.

If we get R.Warnock we would be very foolish not to either include Jamar in the deal or trade him afterwards.

333 you make alot of sense. If we got Warnock we should, if we can, trade Jamar for whatever we can get.

[Nasher 33,617]

333 you make alot of sense. If we got Warnock we should, if we can, trade Jamar for whatever we can get.

Who's got pick 96 this year? :D

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

Despite the inherent speculation, there is quite a bit of sense going around on this thread.

I agree that White should retire.

I agree that PJ should stay up forward with some ruck duties inside 50.

I agree that, should we get Warnock, he ought to be swapped directly with Jamar at the center bounce/#1 ruck role for next season.

I can't lend any insight into the Meesen/Spencer propositions (nor do I know much about the Scorpions list...)

To add to the speculation (perhaps taking it too far for it to be worthwhile), based on the assumption that Warnock and Jamar are mutually exclusive in the starting 22 (or not, if you disagree), what would we do with Naitanui (who I haven't actually seen play)?

Presumably some development in the seconds? What then?

Ruck rotations/zoning? Who with and where? How would it work?

P.S. Scenario "C" thanks

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

To answer my own question, I'm guessing that Naitanui could releive both a PJ forward/ruck role and a Jamar/Warnock center role.

From what I hear, NN is a decent midfield proposition - could be good to releive Jamar/Warnock with fresh legs?

He certainly doesn't lack height/leap. Perhaps a little time up forward releiving PJ might give him a chance to develop this part of his game?

I would hate to see him overplayed in any case.

Anyway, I'm asking because I don't really feel that I have enough knowledge to comment. Thoughts?

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

The biggest question is - What do we need from a ruckman?

Everybody raves about Dean Cox. Why? Because he is very good around the ground in a way that you don't see very often. He is rare in this ability. But how important are those possessions around the ground? I don't think that they are especially important because he is simply getting possessions that a midfielder would normally get, ie the cheap kick coming out of defence, the wide handball etc. No matter how good Cox is at this, 'for a ruckman', the fact is that you would still prefer to have the ball in the hands of a midfielder that can break the lines and be damaging with the ball.

I think Cox's influence is overstated due to the novelty of having a high possession ruckman.

Hawthorn is excellent at clearances, but Taylor and Campbell are just honest toilers. But they are honest toilers who clear space for midfielders and work really hard to use their respective bodies. These ruckmen don't need to be talented to get the job done.

The ruckmen that have thrived in finals footy are the big, strong, aggressive ruckmen who clear a path for their midfielders. It's the reason why Mark Blake was dropped for the Grand Final for Steven King. The intensity of finals footy is higher, so the value of a ruckman getting the footy is much lower. The ruckman only slows the ball movement down. The value of a ruckman is in the body work to create the time for smaller players who have the speed to capitalise on it.

Jamar isn't particularly talented and doesn't get near the ball around the ground, but I think he could possibly be our most effective ruckman. He offers something on our list that few others can, competitiveness in the stoppages. That's what wins finals footy and he is our only player (other than perhaps Spencer) that thrives on the competition of a stoppage.

I don't think that there is any value in trading White. We won't get anything of value for him and it will only serve to alienate parts of the playing group. I would be happy to pick up Warnock, but I actually don't feel that a ruckman is the most pressing of our needs at the moment.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

3 weeks ago I thought Matthew Lloyd was finished. His past 2 games, however, have got me thinking otherwise.

Right now I think Jeff White is finished. So hopefully someone says something about him in the media and he finds some form.

In regards to Jamar, I was listening to SEN and Luke Darcy mentioned this one instance where Jamar was in the goalsquare against the shorter Leo Barry when we were entering the 50: instead of playing to his advantage (height and strength) and staying in the goalsquare for the kick, he tried to make a lead, playing into Barry's advantage (speed). It goes to show Jamar does not have the brains or nous to play AFL footy. He's not the future.

[Jarka 767]

The biggest question is - What do we need from a ruckman?

Everybody raves about Dean Cox.....

Cox gives a tremendous boost to his team because he is basically a bonus midfielder, it's like the Eagles having one extra runner on the park. The opposition team have to give him respect or else risk getting cut up through the middle, this immediately puts them on the back foot.

I think you underestimate the impact that an agile ruckman who is a hardball/clearance specialist and can tackle as well as anyone else playing the game can have on a team.

[The Emblem 1]

In regards to Jamar, I was listening to SEN and Luke Darcy mentioned this one instance where Jamar was in the goalsquare against the shorter Leo Barry when we were entering the 50: instead of playing to his advantage (height and strength) and staying in the goalsquare for the kick, he tried to make a lead, playing into Barry's advantage (speed). It goes to show Jamar does not have the brains or nous to play AFL footy. He's not the future.

Good point...another which horrified me was kicking long [not under pressure] to a near stationary Wonaemirri who was double teamed at the time, WTF.

A little more nous please boys.

On the plus side I though our endeavour for the most part was pretty good and that a losing margin of 4 goals would have been a fairer reflection of the contest.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Cox gives a tremendous boost to his team because he is basically a bonus midfielder, it's like the Eagles having one extra runner on the park. The opposition team have to give him respect or else risk getting cut up through the middle, this immediately puts them on the back foot.

I think you underestimate the impact that an agile ruckman who is a hardball/clearance specialist and can tackle as well as anyone else playing the game can have on a team.

I actually agree 100%. Many of todays ruckmen contest the hitouts but are innefective as midfileders. A mobile ruckman who has the stamina and skills to be a linkman is a huge advantage. Thats where guys like Cox and Stynes stand out.

A ruckman that can take contested grabs in the back line and kick goals in the forward line is also gold. Cox does these things too (to a lesser extent). Cox stands out at the moment because there are not the elite ruckmen in the comp that there was say 10 years ago. It could be that the game has become too quick for a lot of the big men to stay consistently involved.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I actually agree 100%. Many of todays ruckmen contest the hitouts but are innefective as midfileders. A mobile ruckman who has the stamina and skills to be a linkman is a huge advantage. Thats where guys like Cox and Stynes stand out.

A ruckman that can take contested grabs in the back line and kick goals in the forward line is also gold. Cox does these things too (to a lesser extent). Cox stands out at the moment because there are not the elite ruckmen in the comp that there was say 10 years ago. It could be that the game has become too quick for a lot of the big men to stay consistently involved.

If Cox had played 10 years ago I believe he would be a lift.

But the role of a ruckman today has changed and their impact less than it was 5 to 10 years.

Cox is a good player but his impact is not as significant as damaging midfielder. His type compliment a good midfielder but do not cover or replace it.

[deanox 9,989]

If Cox had played 10 years ago I believe he would be a lift.

But the role of a ruckman today has changed and their impact less than it was 5 to 10 years.

Cox is a good player but his impact is not as significant as damaging midfielder. His type compliment a good midfielder but do not cover or replace it.

spot on rhino. as good as cox is, and as valuable as he is, if we learnt anything from WCE the last few years (apart from dont do drugs) its that the ruckman needs great midfielders around him.

i think that the difference made to the teams performance as a whole between having a champion ruckman and having an average but competitive ruckman is minimal.

out of interest, if the centre circle rules were changed again i think this would change dramatically. ie if the afl said 'no center circle and no line - the players can stand where ever they want, same as any other ball up around the ground, then the value of a ruckman could increase.

[Dannyz 2,851]

Jeff is doing well. Consistently.

He drops back, his alright going forward and does his job in the ruck. But lets be honest Jeff has never been an outstanding tap ruckman, it was his around-the-ground work which has made him the player he is.

Jamar is doing okay, He just hasnt made the big step up yet. Time will tell with Mark.

[deanox 9,989]

Jeff is doing well. Consistently.

He drops back, his alright going forward and does his job in the ruck. But lets be honest Jeff has never been an outstanding tap ruckman, it was his around-the-ground work which has made him the player he is.

Jamar is doing okay, He just hasnt made the big step up yet. Time will tell with Mark.

jeff got 1? possession in the 2nd half on sunday. jeff was a great ruck until the center cicle cruelled him. he doesnt do enough around the ground these days, is very hesitant and often takes poor options to players under pressure. unless he comes good he is well past his best.

time will tell with mark? how much more time could you possibly ned to give him? he can ruck well but does donuts around the field. and will almost certainly be the same forever.

[Dannyz 2,851]

jeff got 1? possession in the 2nd half on sunday. jeff was a great ruck until the center cicle cruelled him. he doesnt do enough around the ground these days, is very hesitant and often takes poor options to players under pressure. unless he comes good he is well past his best.

time will tell with mark? how much more time could you possibly ned to give him? he can ruck well but does donuts around the field. and will almost certainly be the same forever.

Jeff was poor in the second half yes, but on a whole over this season his been pretty good.

There are alot of ruckman who do "donuts" around the ground but still are fantastic for their teams, we just take it for granted because Jeff has been just as a good as a midfielder around the ground for so long.

[Adelaide Demon 0]

I have to say that I disagree with the majority of you who are advocating that White is now rubbish and that he should retire. We must be watching different matches because for my money, he's been quite good in a few games and ok in most of the rest. He's had 1 or 2 poor games, that's it. I think he should stay, play the rest of this year and next, and next year he can help mould our new ruck(s) that we pick up in the draft. His experience here will be invaluable.

On the other hand, I reckon Jamar and Johnson are both pretty awful. Johnson's game on the weekend was the best I've seen him play. He actually has some confidence in his skills these last two weeks and did well on saturday, but one game isn't going to change my opinion - his skill level is awful, he is neither a ruckman nor a CHF or CHB, at best he is a forward pocket but with his skills and mobility I think he should be moved on or delisted. He can't ruck. Jamar, as a direct opposite, can ruck. But his skills are also attrocious, and his decision making - as has been mentioned - is at times baffling, and generally poor. Not the future. (And while the valid counter to this is that neither is White, Jeff can at the least still play a crucial role with the youngsters and young rucks. And Jeff's skills and mobility is better than Jamar's or Johnson's anyway.)

If we had a Kruezer-type that White could mentor for a season, that'd be perfect, and White would be of great value to the club both next season and in the long-term if a situation like this were to occur. My opinion is to keep White as #1 ruck for the rest of the year, see who we pick up in the draft, and keep him next season as well. His mobility and skills give him another season for my money. The fact that he's my favourite player doesn't have anything to do with that either.

Whitey's only got about 35 more games to get to 300, and only about 65 more to get to 300 for us, come on, let's give him a 5-year deal!

[grazman 7,451]

On the other hand, I reckon Jamar and Johnson are both pretty awful. Johnson's game on the weekend was the best I've seen him play. He actually has some confidence in his skills these last two weeks and did well on saturday, but one game isn't going to change my opinion - his skill level is awful, he is neither a ruckman nor a CHF or CHB, at best he is a forward pocket but with his skills and mobility I think he should be moved on or delisted. He can't ruck. Jamar, as a direct opposite, can ruck. But his skills are also attrocious, and his decision making - as has been mentioned - is at times baffling, and generally poor. Not the future. (And while the valid counter to this is that neither is White, Jeff can at the least still play a crucial role with the youngsters and young rucks. And Jeff's skills and mobility is better than Jamar's or Johnson's anyway.)

Excellent post AD. I agree re White. He's aging now, but is still our best ruckman and it's a real worry as to what happens if we can't get a Robbie Warnock - or who will be his understudy, because I don't see either of the current two being up to the task. It's a pity we couldn't morph PJ and Jamar into one body, we'd get a pretty decent ruckman.

[issarab 0]

I am very dissappointed with Jeff he appears to me that he is quite contented with just running around behind play picking up stats and when any pressure is applied he mucks up this is just not good enough for the fourth highest paid player the perfect solution would be to drop him save some money and groom someone who wants to blead and put in either Martin or Meeson could be given a chance .

I went to Canberra and I WAS VERY UPSEY AT Jeffs lack of effort and for a player with his experience lacks judgement and leadership he also panicks

I spoke to an ex Coach of Melb last Thursday at a AFL Function and we discussed Jeff he told me that ahe wants to move to Qld with his wife who comes from there also he told me that Carlton is very interested in Jamar and will makean effort to get him they beleive he is very good at stoppages and very agressive at centre bounces also his is the best Ruckman when in the VFL I hope he stays as his efforts in Canberra and also against the Schokers were great I would make him first Ruck inject confidence that may be just the trick to having him go to the next level he seems to be on the verge of becoming a good player.

This week we have an opportunity to also give Valenti a go we need to sure up our midfield more as Black looms as a danger he should Replace Bode how hasnt got it also Martin should be given an opportunity he can play I watch him at training and boy he has improved the last game I watched against the Scorpions when he was beaten he gave a seacond effort and is a very good Mark we are far better of with hom than Jeff

[Doggo 32]

I have to say that I disagree with the majority of you who are advocating that White is now rubbish and that he should retire. We must be watching different matches because for my money, he's been quite good in a few games and ok in most of the rest. He's had 1 or 2 poor games, that's it. I think he should stay, play the rest of this year and next, and next year he can help mould our new ruck(s) that we pick up in the draft. His experience here will be invaluable.

On the other hand, I reckon Jamar and Johnson are both pretty awful. Johnson's game on the weekend was the best I've seen him play. He actually has some confidence in his skills these last two weeks and did well on saturday, but one game isn't going to change my opinion - his skill level is awful, he is neither a ruckman nor a CHF or CHB, at best he is a forward pocket but with his skills and mobility I think he should be moved on or delisted. He can't ruck. Jamar, as a direct opposite, can ruck. But his skills are also attrocious, and his decision making - as has been mentioned - is at times baffling, and generally poor. Not the future.

We must indeed be watching different matches then.

'AdelaideDemon', I'm assuming that you wouldnt get to too many live MFC matches, though i could be wrong? I think it's a lot harder to completely judge a player without being at the ground and seeing what they are doing off the ball, how their morale and body language is, whether they're putting their body on the line for their teammates, how they bring others into the game... etc etc.

Whitey was one of my favourites for many years (1998-2005), but what i've seen of him last season and this year to date, has been very underwhelming. His stats are very good, but its his lack of influence on the game that i find most worrying.

I attend as many matches as i can in Melbourne, and one thing I've noticed almost every week is that Jeff's pretty poor when we don't have the ball and does not run hard defensively at all, as well as not always going in the air when he needs to when in the backline. As an older player and perceived leader around the club, he needs to lead by example. That means doing the hard things, getting back to help the defence in the marking contest, bullocking work in the the midfield and drifting forward where possible and hurting the opposition ruckman if left unaccounted for. These are things i have not seen enough of from JW this year. Not just picking up easy touches behind the play.

Forgive me if i'm being harsh on him, but he has set his standard high in the past, and you're kidding yourself if you think he is performing anywhere near to that standard, or been 'quite good' in most games.

Jeff White can have 25 disposals and 25 hitouts in a match (those are 'elite' numbers), but still have no influence at all. IMO its because the majority of his possesions are uncontested, short wide kicks or backwards handballs, and his hitouts go nowhere. He rarely seems to play with any real 'bite' or passion anymore. His disposal lacks penetration or 'hurt-factor', i.e. he can get a heap of the footy and use it reasonably well on most occassions, but is never really dangerous or damaging with the ball. In both his desicion making and ability to bring teamates into the game. His ruckwork, particularly hitouts to advantage, has been well down on what it was at his peak. And he seems to be brushed aside too easily at boundary throw-in's at times. For a big bloke, he lacks physicality and rarely makes his presence felt, something that both Jamar and PJ do much better than he, and IMO his skill level, and in particular decision making, having gotten progressively worse since 2005-06. He's never been particularly damaging as a resting forward, even at his best, and he's no better at it now. And hitting the body hard isnt something he's particularly noted for either.

AND... he's now on the wrong side of 30, and we are in the early stages of a rebuild not expected to hit full stride for at least another 3-4 years. Carrying him for 2 more years during the rebuild, just to reach his 300th game, sentiment aside, is hardly going to help the development of our other ruckmen. Why play a player whose best is well behind him ahead of guys whose best footy is still ahead of them? PJ, Meesen, even Jamar, and Naitanui and/or Warnock should they be on the list next year, all have their peak ahead of them and need time at AFL level in the next 2 or so years while we're down and rebuilding before our next serious premiership contention.

I do agree with u that Jamar is awful. He has had 6 years and ample opportunity to show us he can play, and has left us all wanting. His dominance at VFL is something he's never been able to transfer to the big time, even after over 50 senior games, and its seems pretty clear he's not up to AFL standard as he has shown very little improvement over that time. As much as i dont like him as a footballer, i think he needs to be given some more games in the run home this year, if not only to raise his (very low) trade value. He is contracted next year, otherwise i'd say he'd be a certain delisting come years end, and could possibly still be depending on his last 8 weeks.

Gotta defend PJ on this one though, as always. lol

Having seen a lot of him play in juniors, and following him week-to-week since he came to the club and won the VFL Liston Medal in 2005 (after 8 BOG's in 8 games), i can almost certainly say you're wrong in your assumption that PJ's skill level is 'awful'. It is actually one of his great strengths.

His skills are very good technically, definitely as good as White's. He has a textbook kicking style and generally his ball-use, by both hand (where IMO he is better than White) and by foot, especially short-mid range field passing 25-40m, is elite for a man of his size. His mobility below the knees is also expectional given his 199cm frame. The main issue he's had to date has been a lack of contested pack and one-on-one marking and aerial judgement overhead, though this is something i think he has improved on tremendously since he arrived at the club in 2005. He's equal 3rd in contested marks for us this year with 7 from 9 matches, behind Miller and Neitz (yes Neitz, STILL 2nd at the club for contested marks) and equal to White (who has played 3 more games).

His career has been ruined by injury so far, but i'm sure with an extended run in the seniors, gradually more responsibilty and, say, 20 more games into him- he will become a very good player for the club as a forward/2nd ruck. With more confidence, games like the one against Sydney, and more goal scoring opportunities, will be the norm for him. I'm sure of it.

If DB plays him exclusively in the role he played against Sydney for the remaining 8 (?) games of the season, i'll guarantee he'll kick between 15-25 goals come seasons end.

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

Whilst Jeff may well still be our best prospect in the ruck this does not mean we should be playing him - after all the season is shot anyway.

The notion that by keeping Jeff on he is somehow going to impart his rucking wisdom by taking all the bounces seems a little off to me. If we want Jeff to pass on his knowledge then we should employ him in a coaching role (not that I'm actually advocating this because I have no idea if he'd be any good anyway). In the meantime I would prefer it if the other rucks enjoyed the instruction of another teacher, experience.

All credit to Jeff for his great contribution to the club over the years but he will not play in a Grand Final and keeping him on the list is not doing the team any favours in the long run.

Jamar may not be great but he's what we've got. More time in the center can only improve, if not his skills, at least his trade value.