Carrot Top

I don't want either. I want to see real success. Us, the Saints or the Dogs are all the same: it's just the level of failure that differs.

It's a NO from me. More of the same, IMO, and we deserve better.

What has? Crap teams making the finals, or the dysfuctional sack the coacj, sack the CEO, have the President resign as a condition of an AFL bailout making the finals? We're unique, baby. We really are. As I said above I don't think that our list is as bad as our results, and it has some bright lights (on paper, anyway), but we have some major issues between the ears. If we can sort those out then we'll look a much better team (and club), but finals? It'd be nice, but I've see too many false dawns to wish for anything but an end to the pain.

You ought to be ashamed of that crap. You really should. I'm not sure that you've got the smarts to realise what an idiotic post that was, but if you ever do get them you're going to want to hide away from this place.

Agreed. There were some misses, but they are not costly misses like we've had, and certainly not in a way that we've seen under previous set ups. Some people around here start crying if freeby hopeful at # 60 something isn't any good, I care when pick # 10 or so turns out to be a ballerina in disguise.

It's like that wonderful call to bi-partisanship pollies call for all the time. It roughly translates as: do things my way and we'll all get along fine. It's the call of people that don't have plans that will survive a thorough debate.

The way I see us right now is a potentially solid - v good backline. A solid to v good forward line, And a D grade midfield, but with a couple of potentially very nice kiddies in it. We need 2 X very good mids (not great, although that would be nice, but workman like, sensible, and efficient would make a world of difference) and we'll be a much, much better club for it. However we have mental problems. We've had them for over a decade and they've gotten worse by the year since 2007. All the talent in the world wont fix that. I think that maybe we'll be on our way with Jackson, a coach with clout, and a board that has a clue. If we can become a club with pride and belief (and a couple of extra good mids) I think we can go places in a hurry. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

Glad he's gone, and I hope we keep moving out players that think the club owes them a living.

Please. Every team didn't take Selwood or Darling once. Hurley isn't much chop at all, and would be worse with us, Martin has a tonne of talent but is so close to losing it all. Of those 2 we're the equal of everyone else, another was a bloke that went were he should because he's either inconsistent or injured, and someone that could win you a flag or get caught using the team flights to smuggle coke. I'd draft Martin to us in hindsight, but not with any confidence we could make a player or a citizen of him.

(I struggle with the quoting here so take this by para) 1/ Link for how that exactly passes as debate around here please. One fool does not make a debate, and this place should take pride in the standard of the knowledge of the average poster, rather than run them down for not always agreeing, and not always agreeing in good humour. 2/ I told you so's is a pretty common human trait. I would fully expect the other side of the debate to have done the same thing had events taken a different turn. I myself am just a poor, ignorant schmuck that had no inside knowledge, and therefore no 'I told you sos' but I'm bloody happy that CS and DM no longer steer the SS Titanic. No apologies for that. 3/ agree. This mess has been 15 years in the making. That doesn't mean the current crew should be able to pass the buck. 4 (and the rest) / I don't think we've understood it backwards at all. I also don't think that where we were in 2007 is anything like it is now. Then we were broke and needing a couple of years to get back on out feet. It's why it was so easy for the Jimmy board to sell us hope. Now... now... I really don't know. I've had that much faith kicked out of me that all I hope for now is for the nightmare to end, and for the laughter to stop. I don't care about flags because that'd be like caring about unicorns. I care about not being ashamed of my club. We're in a much, much worse position than we were 2007/008/009.

Don't see that at all. Martin would have been in the red and blue rather than Scully if that was the case. We were all jerking off about what a hard working, sober lad Tom was and never even spoke to Martin. We also picked Watts over NicNat over NicNat being not 100% about a move east. I still think it was the right call and Watts was mismanaged, but we didn't recruit based on pure talent or NicNat would be ours. If anything it's been the other way around. We pick them on damn near every other reason than 'can this kid find ball and use ball?' Too much [censored] over egging of the pudding has killed us. Pick the best you can find, and then build a team around them. Until we figure that out (and I think we did this year with Toumpas over Wines) we have no hope as a club.

I've said it in other threads: if he is the best available when we get our pick then we take him. If he isn't we take another. No drawbacks in bringing the best to the club. Plenty of drawbacks in trying to pick a kid that we think should or might fill a role we hope they can fill.

I tend to agree. And it's hard to recruit the way I mentioned, because to take a (for example) quick back flanker when a solid CHF is on offer and is what you need, must take some balls, but it's what the good teams do, and what the best master. Sydney won't do it any other way. Us and the Doggies draft for the players we wish to have, and it kills us. Freo is starting to wise up, but they killed themselves for a long time chasing needs in the draft. It will never be perfect, but if you get an A1 gun you can actually design a whole system around them. The game will change to suit genius. It won't change to suit wishful thinking.

Trade one in. Trade someone good but not essential out and bundle some picks. Use our next pick to draft one (law of averages says the next best will be a mid). Move hell and high water like we did when we needed some mature forwards. Don't though - under any circumstances - pass on the best kid you can get your hands on.

King has made some moronic calls in the past. Writing off Geelong in 2011 springs to mind. But broken clocks are right twice a day, and a footy talking head that makes 500 predictions a year will get a couple of them right too. He's a lightweight.

But that's it. You don't draft looking for a seventeen year old Mundy. You throw the kitchen sink and whatever else you have to get an established Mundy. Trade out the extra guns you picked up because you happened to draft 3 gun CHB's in a row,

At least Jack Watts didn't get slammed this time.

It wasn't just Cook. In one of the threads around there is a list of high picks we're taken for ten years, and they run from picking guys for size, for kicking, for height, for speed. Post pick 25ish I'd say go wild and have a shot at what you think you'll need, but when you pick a Gys because 'he can find the ball (can't use it but wtf), or a Maric because 'he can use it (can't find it though), or Cook (we need a forward but Darling is a bit of a naughty boy), or Tapscott because he is hard (rather than Fyfe that can play the game) etc etc... It's why we have players with one good skill, and who lack others. It's why we had a chunky one paced midfield for years. Flower wouldn't have been drafted by us with any pick in the last 20 years. I'd rather us lose a player (waste a pick) for being a Pike or Fev than for being a Cook or Gys. Good players make a team. The also lift the B graders to want to be worthy of them. They also bring players to the club who want to play with them. Best available. Always.

Stars, stars, stars. Yes we need mids. But we should never pass up a potential champ. Ever. I'd walk away if we took a Tambling instead of a Buddy this year. It would be the last straw.

Agree. Both have done pretty well getting teams off the carpet. Ratten would be my first pick (from an armchair board member position). I reckon he did pretty well with a poor list + Judd.

Best available with whatever picks we get. You don't ever, ever pass on quality no matter what needs you have. Draft for talent, trade for needs.

As Obama might have said: change we can believe in.

It wasn't. I just meant that even when you've got all the boxed ticked it's still a judgement call. Not unlike any job interviews in the real world.

Yes - but it's a qualified yes. Neeld is a big part of the problem, but I'm not convinced he'd be a failure as a coach at a club that wasn't completely dysfunctional. I have some hope that the work he's done may bare fruit for whoever the next coach / admin may be. But for whatever reasons the Neeld plan hit an iceburg, and I can't see how we can come back from that without major change.

If he can get the players to walk an inch taller and run a bit harder, then he's the one for me. Too many of our problems are between the ears.