Lil_red_fire_engine

Thats why I dislike statements like olisiks. Exactly the point I made.

Whilst I will be happy with any of those 3 I would wet my pants if Toumpas is available for us and would be disappointed if we didn't take him. No disrespect to Wines but I would take Toumpas and O'Rourke ahead of him as they have more balanced games with the added dimension of ball carrying speed that we sorely lack.

I would hate it if we took O'Rourke and he turned into Morton and Wines became Dangerfield. I think Wines has more to him than "hard working mid". I would personally choose O'Rourke but dont think we can lose either way. Both will be deserved of top draft positions.

How many games have you watched him play?

I would look at Garlett and Schneider (highly rated by some Hawks fans I trust). Lonergan is to Essendon what Petterd was to MFC. People remember the 5 good games he played not the 45 mediocre ones.

1. Taggert 2. Trengove 3. Strauss

Come on. With Morton, Martin and Gysberts gone we need a new whipping boy

Thanks HG. Is this bit your view or also sourced?

Dees Dayz, how does RFC relate to regional people? Best of luck for the rest of your life.

Sydney Swans first pick in each draft since 2006 2006 Daniel O'Keefe (pick 15) 2007 Patrick Vezpremi (pick 11) 2008 Lewis Johnstone (pick 12) 2009 Gary Rohan (pick 6) 2010 Jed Lamb (pick 21) 2011 Tom Mitchell (pick 21) 35 games between them across 5 years. Everyone has failures the importance is the impact you have with the ones you get right.

Can someone with more brain power than me today work out assuming all others get contracted and 2 of nicholshon, evans, magner and couch are upgrade how many spots that leaves us on our list for the draft?

We have lost Morton (9 games), Gysberts (1 game), Moloney (15 games), Green (13 games) and a backmen in Rivers who played most of the year forward. None of these are starting 18 players nor would they be next year. We have gained two elite kids (Hogan for next year) and have pick 4 to attain another, a premiership CHF whose not even at his peak, another key swingman who is proven to impact at AFL level and two mature bodied soldiers with speed that cost us next to nothing. If we can get a mid 30s pick for Martin and attain Jacobs in the PSD we will be significantly ahead. Oh wait but we could have done nothing and loaded up all on kids because that has worked so well so far. If anyone thinks we haven't done well they know nothing about footy.

I rate Gysberts skill set but his endurance is appalling and his attitude to hard work appears faulted by those in the know. I have stuck up for Cale many times and to give him a way for a packet of chips seems a waste. However we need to stop looking at these players as what they were drafted and accept they are not in the clubs plans and if that is the case trading them to do what is is the right move. We obviously rate Pederson and if pick 88 allows upgrade of Nicholson for example then it suits our need. Next year they would likely both be delisted and attain us nothing. We have gone into the trade period to improve our forwardline with some maturity, attain some young elite talent and cull those that dont fit the plan or culture. I dont agree with all the moves but I would say it has been very successful.

Taggert and Evans fit and with a preseason is like drafting 2 new mids. I think both of these particularly Taggert could be accomplished AFL players. Viney + Toumpas/Wines/O'Rourke + these two is adding some more mids capable of playing some senior footy next year. The majority of players we are losing are in betweeners that aren't quite mids and not quite keys ie: Petterd, Bate, Green. Whilst I know it is hard to be patient with Clark,Dawes, Hogan and potentially Pederson we will not have to target a key forward in the next 3-5 years. Jamar, Gawn, Spencer, Fitzpatrick give us an experienced ruck and 3 in varying stages of development. Our defensive 6 is reasonably settled although I can see us drafting another key defender in the next 2 years. That really does leave us to purely focus on our midfield from a draft, FA and trade perspective again next year. There are too many gaps in our list for Neeld and co to fix them all in 2 trade/draft periods. The aim should be a balanced list by 2014/2015 and we are certainly heading in the right direction.

You probably need to add Byrnes to that equation. My understanding is Pederson lack of games is more a clash of personalities than performance.

Petterd has played a couple of A grade games and had a couple of moments in other games people remember. People then forget that the majority of his remaining 50 odd games have been below AFL standard. He doesn't consistently work hard enough and is not quite good enough to make a position his own.

Easily Sean Wight

Watson and Kennedy were both tall inside mids who were or nearly were traded early in their careers because they didn't work hard enough and their skills were not up to scratch. I am not saying that Gysberts will be as good as either but they are of similar style. I saw his and Blease early pre-season work and their efforts were embarrassing. The penny dropped with Blease and he had continuity of games to show his improvement. Its hard to tell with Gysbert due to injury interruptions whether the same has occurred. If we think we can rectify his alleged attitude to hard work then he is well worth persevering with. He should not be traded just for the hell of it.

Nic Nat is a contested ball monster who loves physical contact. Would say the same about Martin?

This is purely from watching the 2 games at the championships. Just did not appear to naturally read the ball in play and on occasion just went to completely the wrong spot. I would take Shifters view over my 4 hours of viewing. Not saying I wont be happy if we get him but if available I think Toumpas more complements what we have.

I like Wines but he seems to hunt the ball not naturally read it. If there is a choice between Toumpas and Wines its clearly Toumpas for what I have seen. However I would will not be too concerned if its Toumpas over any others.

Anyone that thinks Viney is purely an inside mid go and watch his highlights on MFC website. His initial acceleration is excellent which is more important than speed over longer distances.

Whilst I would not do this deal would people be happy with Viney at 3, O'Rourke at 4, Kennedy at 13 and Wellingham and Dawes traded for pick 26?

Welcome Shannon Good pick up and exactly what the Moneyball principle is about. No worldbeater fills a role on and off the field.

Viney may be rated by some recruiters between 5-8 in the draft but there are other intangibles that add to his value due to the exposure we have had to him. He has had time in our system already. We know what we are getting with Viney and how he will adapt to the rigours of an AFL pre season (which he completed in most part). We have seen him play against men. We know he will be true to the jumper and not a turncoat like others may be. I watched Whitfields and Vineys pressers yesterday and in one I saw a young boy and the other I saw a warrior. I would put my money on Viney having the better career not necessarily out of talent but out of want. Viney is a sure thing 150-200 gamer at worst. He is a culture changing once in a generation mid at best. Whitfield is a nice player unproven against men. I hope we get the added value of him in the second round but if required we would be mad to not take him at 3.