My 2008 blueprint

[brey9186 102]

why not lance whitnal??

has got the hunger back, fairly injury-free, can play back or forward (an upgrade on dutchy)

i dont think carlton would be asking too much for him, jamar needs a new opportunity, and carlton need ruckmen?

have him at CHB, with carrol and frawley as the other talls, releasing rivers to play his best zoning position, pushing up the ground (see sam fisher this year? rivers will double his output in 08!!)

im not for trading bruce, or any of our better players, when you can brock, jonesy and kid feeding it off to bruce, TJ and greeny, we a re much better side, and with a full strength midfield, cameron bruce's name will alongside kane cornes and cameron ling as attacking taggers!

we have the list, just need a few additions, we'll get another good young player or 2 from the draft, and a run of no-injurys will show the AFL what we can do!!!

[Demons 32 235]

why not lance whitnal??

has got the hunger back, fairly injury-free, can play back or forward (an upgrade on dutchy)

i dont think carlton would be asking too much for him, jamar needs a new opportunity, and carlton need ruckmen?

have him at CHB, with carrol and frawley as the other talls, releasing rivers to play his best zoning position, pushing up the ground (see sam fisher this year? rivers will double his output in 08!!)

This is what im trying to say. Whitnall is a good option for the Melbourne footy club. Jamar and possibly a late round draft pick. Free Rivers up. Would be a good decision.

[Nasher 33,617]

When I explain he hasn't been playing very well they say yeah cause he doesn't get a go, you can't come into a team one week and your confidence is there, give him a couple and he will be alright. If you don't want him, we'll take him. I hope we get him somehow over the off-season, would really help.

I hear all this from supporters of other teams.

I don't give a rat's clacker what opposition supporters think. They're not the people who drive trades.

Football departments (ours and oppositions) will know more or less everything there is worth knowing about Miller. Opposition supporters know less than we do about our own players in general, because of the sheer number of times we've seen him play compared to how many times they have.

While I don't really disagree with what you're saying, the conclusion that he must have trade value because opposition supporters say so is weak at best.

[Nasher 33,617]

When we play direct football a bloke like Miller becomes very valuable. I reckon he would beat most quality CHBs on the lead.

And then do what with it?

His biggest problem as a CHF has been using it when he gets it, not getting it in the first place.

[sylvinator 96]

And then do what with it?

His biggest problem as a CHF has been using it when he gets it, not getting it in the first place.

The reason why miller will not fit into MFC's structure for 2008 is one person. MATTHEW BATE!

the guy in pure and simple a better version of miller.

he has sticky hands and is an extremely hard worker making long leads up the ground.

what seperates them is :

1) Bate's disposal into the forward 50 and shooting for goal is fantastic. his booming kicks are invaluable. Miller's disposal inside 50 is average and his shitty handballs to the running player never come off

2) Bate has a great footballing brain. he knows what to do and where to run once he's got the ball.

Bate, Newton and perhaps even Dunn are our future CHFs.

If Miller can't reinvent himself as a key backman then it looks like he'll be traded off. 3rd rounder will do just fine and teams will be interested at that price me thinks.

[Demons 32 235]

I don't give a rat's clacker what opposition supporters think. They're not the people who drive trades.

Football departments (ours and oppositions) will know more or less everything there is worth knowing about Miller. Opposition supporters know less than we do about our own players in general, because of the sheer number of times we've seen him play compared to how many times they have.

While I don't really disagree with what you're saying, the conclusion that he must have trade value because opposition supporters say so is weak at best.

Nasher I was just making the point that Rhino doesn't know what everyone is thinking. Either do I, or you.

Never said they drove the trade table.

When I hear other supporters say that, I am using that as an example of other supporters think it, why wouldn't some higher ups of other teams.

[Yze_Magic 3]

WHITNALL? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAHA

You are kidding me

It isnt the year 2000 people. Whitnall is finished. \

We are building a new generation of the MFC, with our own players whom will be supremely gifted and not as big as a house. Whitnall is the last person in the AFL I would want at our club!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I disagree.

Good coaching is the difference between 'good' Miller and 'bad' Miller. When a side like Melbourne play pathetic chip around football where we constantly stop at half back and wait (like we have done for a majority of the last two years) the first person that is going to suffer is the hardleading CHF.

When we play direct football a bloke like Miller becomes very valuable. I reckon he would beat most quality CHBs on the lead.

Problem is coaching at our club has let Miller down, not to mention the way he was thrown back and forward. No wonder the bloke has lost all confidence.

Persist with Miller he is 24 years young (not long in the tooth Rhino, what a stupid thing to say considering the large number of 30+ on our list) and has the necessary skill and desire to make it. It is just up to the right coach to come in and make it happen.

Not only is Nasher correct. When we have played direct football Miller was not part of it. I dont see how picking up cheap uncontested kicks in no man's land on the centre wing is of any value. FWIW, I would be happy for a CHB to concede the CHF cheap positions on the wing. It means he is not getting a sniff near the F50 and you know with Miller he cant use it and does not hurt oppositions with the few possessions he does get.

The problem with Miller is not the coaching. He just isnt as good as supporters wanted him to be and are finding bizarre scapegoats rather than dealing with the fact. If a player is 24 and been on your list for six years and cant cut a regular game how much better can he get and what development should there be. he should be entering the best part of his career. He is not. And I dont see the relevance of the 30 + plus players many of whom are at the end of fine AFL careers where at their peak *cough* 22 to 28 they were established AFL capable players.

The reason why miller will not fit into MFC's structure for 2008 is one person. MATTHEW BATE!

.......

If Miller can't reinvent himself as a key backman then it looks like he'll be traded off. 3rd rounder will do just fine and teams will be interested at that price me thinks.

No its not. Miller was not good enough when Bate was not playing.

BTW, Bate is a better but different footballer than Miller.

Miller has been tried up back and failed. His limitations up forward dog him down back.

I agree with the third rounder. As I have said I would take it if it came up.

If he cant be traded he will probably be retained for depth unless Miller plumbs for the PSD.

Nasher I was just making the point that Rhino doesn't know what everyone is thinking. Either do I, or you.

Never said they drove the trade table.

When I hear other supporters say that, I am using that as an example of other supporters think it, why wouldn't some higher ups of other teams.

Who gives a stuff what other supporters are thinking. Its not relevant nor does it make Miller a better player. Nasher is on the money.

[Cactus 2]

This is what im trying to say. Whitnall is a good option for the Melbourne footy club. Jamar and possibly a late round draft pick. Free Rivers up. Would be a good decision.

yep great! lets pick up another player that is old and fat...

he and pickett can form a club of players who earn over $250,000 per year and spend the first 8 weeks of a season in the 2's getting their weight down cause they aren't committed enough to put in a hard pre season

if pickett is lucky he may join him on a saturday night bender before a sunday game

brey,

Whitnall is nowhere near an upgrade on dutchy, the fact that it was even suggested is an insult to holland

[loges 6,767]

The reason why miller will not fit into MFC's structure for 2008 is one person. MATTHEW BATE!

the guy in pure and simple a better version of miller.

he has sticky hands and is an extremely hard worker making long leads up the ground.

what seperates them is :

1) Bate's disposal into the forward 50 and shooting for goal is fantastic. his booming kicks are invaluable. Miller's disposal inside 50 is average and his shitty handballs to the running player never come off

2) Bate has a great footballing brain. he knows what to do and where to run once he's got the ball.

Bate, Newton and perhaps even Dunn are our future CHFs.

If Miller can't reinvent himself as a key backman then it looks like he'll be traded off. 3rd rounder will do just fine and teams will be interested at that price me thinks.

I'll say it one more time. Bate lots of potentiall, NOT big enough for centre half forward!

[sylvinator 96]

I'll say it one more time. Bate lots of potentiall, NOT big enough for centre half forward!

no reason to think he isnt big enough for CHF. he is 190cm atm and has shown that he can taken pack marks, as well as strong marks on the lead and in one-on-situations.

pavlich is 191cm and is in the top 5 players at afl level playing CHF.

u can say what you like about Bate. maybe he wont become a great chf and will become a midfielder...but it will not be his size that is the telling factor

[QueenC 74]

There is a lot of pontificating going on in here, and some peoples opinions are being treated as absolute fact. Thinking highly of ourselves aren't we.

And it would be nice of some folk not to treat those that disagreed with them with total disregard and disrespect. It could be worth remembering that no-ones thoughts and opinions are any more right or wrong than any one else's, no matter how condescending and dismissive some posts are.

Now the way I see it, Miller will probably get another year (and who knows under a new coach what can happen and I am going to continue to have at least some faith, blind or not, and loyalty in this player. Besides he would be a pretty useful depth if nothing else), that is, of course, if he is not bundled up as a sweetener (he could become very valuable in this particular scenario) for another bigger and more important trade that hopefully will improve the list.

The problem with finding a trade on its own is two fold in my opinion (and I am not going to tell people that this is fact as I have no more idea than any one else around here), the first being, there are far more valuable players on our list that can, and should be able to be traded, if needed, for a bigger list improving scalp. The other side of the coin is that there are probably less valuable players that will be delisted before anyone even gets to Miller.

Therefore he is stuck somewhere in between (on the lower rung, but still in between). And I don't know and am not going to pretend to know what a new coach would do about trading Miller for a draft pick, especially given the element of unknown (to us all). Not to mention I certainly don't know enough about the depth and/or quality of this years draft, since it seems to be generally acknowledged that he will only draw a lower round selection.

Thus if his inclusion in an offer to another club gets us what we want then so be it, otherwise I see him staying put for next year.

[warren dean 193]

Queen C, I think you are right about Miller. He is not dissimilar to Dean Wallis, except for some reason he has really toned down the aggression, perhaps to his detriment. For years Wallis was kept on the list much to the disgust of Essendon fans. He finished up a 2 time premiership player and by the time he retired was regarded by Hird as in the 5 most important players at Windy Hill.

I think a bit of faith from Sheedy, if he gets the job, could make all the difference. He may well still have a significant role to play!

[Kit Walker 225]

I posted something similar a while back but anyone who doesn't think Bate, Newton and Dunn are big enough to be key position forwards is kidding themselves. Whether they have the skills or type of game suited is another question (I think all 3 have the potential - too early for any call other than potential at the age of 20).

Newton - 193cm 90kg

Bate - 192cm 90kg

Dunn - 192cm 90kg

From History/Current Players:

Carey - 192cm 97kg

Pavlich - 192cm 100kg

Riewoldt - 193cm 92kg

Neitz - 191cm 100kg

I have no doubt looking at Newton's frame that he will develop into a 95-100kg power forward, and there is every chance that one or both of Bate and Dunn will do likewise.

[Jarka 767]

Quite possibly. I would agree. But I was curious why everyone had him pinned to Brisbane.

No idea RR, just because he's from Queensland doesn't mean they'll be interested.

[Jarka 767]

I posted something similar a while back but anyone who doesn't think Bate, Newton and Dunn are big enough to be key position forwards is kidding themselves. Whether they have the skills or type of game suited is another question (I think all 3 have the potential - too early for any call other than potential at the age of 20).

Newton - 193cm 90kg

Bate - 192cm 90kg

Dunn - 192cm 90kg

From History/Current Players:

Carey - 192cm 97kg

Pavlich - 192cm 100kg

Riewoldt - 193cm 92kg

Neitz - 191cm 100kg

I have no doubt looking at Newton's frame that he will develop into a 95-100kg power forward, and there is every chance that one or both of Bate and Dunn will do likewise.

Size is irrelevant, but from that list only Newton is a realistic key forward proposition. Dunn is unable to take contested marks and Bate is a midfielder who can pinch hit up forward. If you want an indication that size means nothing then look at Brereton's height, it's all about the attitude.

[sylvinator 96]

There is a lot of pontificating going on in here, and some peoples opinions are being treated as absolute fact. Thinking highly of ourselves aren't we.

And it would be nice of some folk not to treat those that disagreed with them with total disregard and disrespect. It could be worth remembering that no-ones thoughts and opinions are any more right or wrong than any one else's, no matter how condescending and dismissive some posts are.

Now the way I see it, Miller will probably get another year (and who knows under a new coach what can happen and I am going to continue to have at least some faith, blind or not, and loyalty in this player. Besides he would be a pretty useful depth if nothing else), that is, of course, if he is not bundled up as a sweetener (he could become very valuable in this particular scenario) for another bigger and more important trade that hopefully will improve the list.

The problem with finding a trade on its own is two fold in my opinion (and I am not going to tell people that this is fact as I have no more idea than any one else around here), the first being, there are far more valuable players on our list that can, and should be able to be traded, if needed, for a bigger list improving scalp. The other side of the coin is that there are probably less valuable players that will be delisted before anyone even gets to Miller.

Therefore he is stuck somewhere in between (on the lower rung, but still in between). And I don't know and am not going to pretend to know what a new coach would do about trading Miller for a draft pick, especially given the element of unknown (to us all). Not to mention I certainly don't know enough about the depth and/or quality of this years draft, since it seems to be generally acknowledged that he will only draw a lower round selection.

Thus if his inclusion in an offer to another club gets us what we want then so be it, otherwise I see him staying put for next year.

QueenC, you have a point that everyone should respect other people's opinions and not belittle them...but if posters gave both sides of the argument and then rationally considered the merit of both this board would be pretty boring i reckon.

no harm in voicing a strong opinion...

on a different note...Bate most certainly has the capability and attributes to become a very succesful CHF.

a) he knows how to kick goals. his goal sense is great, whether it's booming them from outside 50, from a set shot or a quick snap. this is vital for a CHF to be able to kick 2-3 goals a game even when he spends most of his time outside 50m arc

B) he is a fantastic mark, both on the lead and over his head and in a contested pack situation.

c) his motor is outstanding. he works his but off and runs all day

the only problem i see with Bate at the moment is that i hate see him duck out of situations backing into packs. he doesnt do the courageous things and it can be obvious at times that he wont put his body on the line. however, considering he is 20 i think that if that's his only problem them we might have a gem of a player.

[Kit Walker 225]

Size is irrelevant, but from that list only Newton is a realistic key forward proposition. Dunn is unable to take contested marks and Bate is a midfielder who can pinch hit up forward. If you want an indication that size means nothing then look at Brereton's height, it's all about the attitude.

It's not irrelevant, Dunn can take contested marks, and Bate is quite possibly capable of playing as a key forward. It is rare that a player can take a KPF position at the age of 20 and my comments were directed at the various people who have said that any or all of these three are not big enough to be key position players.

Brereton was a freak, as was Gary Ablett as is James Hird. Hope that one or more of these players become very good/excellent players. Those three are in the stratosphere.

[QueenC 74]

QueenC, you have a point that everyone should respect other people's opinions and not belittle them...but if posters gave both sides of the argument and then rationally considered the merit of both this board would be pretty boring i reckon.

no harm in voicing a strong opinion...

No probs there at all sylvinator......

I would never expect everyone to agree, that would be boring and pretty pointless in the overall scheme of things, but it's the condescension and dismissal or belittling of others simply because they state something unpopular or that some or even most posters will never agree with that grates my last nerve.

And unfortunately the Miller topic seems to bring that out in some. I have worn it for quite a while now simply because I refuse to give up on him when others have and I will only do so if and when the club also decides to do so. For some around here that seems to make me (and others) stupid and my opinion irrelevant.

Disagreeing with the popular opinion, for my reasons, does not mean I should be disrespected, which unfortunately happens in regards to this topic !!!

[brey9186 102]

yep great! lets pick up another player that is old and fat...

he and pickett can form a club of players who earn over $250,000 per year and spend the first 8 weeks of a season in the 2's getting their weight down cause they aren't committed enough to put in a hard pre season

if pickett is lucky he may join him on a saturday night bender before a sunday game

brey,

Whitnall is nowhere near an upgrade on dutchy, the fact that it was even suggested is an insult to holland

i dont think thats true

at his best, whitnall is a smart, skillful player, who has the ability to kick bags of goals, or shut down and zone off in the back line

where as dutchy, who has given his all for the demons, can still put the fear of god into most supporters when he has the ball in hands

on the miller note, miller to brisbane, cameron wood to adelaide, john meeson to melbourne