Newton v Carlton

[Jarka 767]

"Having good forwards straightens up midfields."

I responded to CB.

Thanks

It's pretty obvious that my whole argument has been about our poor development of key forwards, if you've missed that poin tthen you've missed alot of other things as well.

MayI congratulate you on posting something that Nasher hasn't had to delete, I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

[Jaded No More 68,958]

How many premierships have they won in the last 10 years?

I asked you before whether not winning a premiership is where our failure lies.

If we won a flag in 2000 but had the exact same list today, would we be a failure?

Are we talking failure to win flags, or failure to draft and develop players, because according to your last post, it's about a failure to develop key forwards. Therefore West Coast are a failure.

In the last 10 years we've never once had a problem with kicking winning scores. Our forward line has always been a strength.

Now Neita is close to the end, and we've got Newton, Bate, Dunn and Garland waiting in the wings. Where's the failure in that?

[Jarka 767]

If we won a flag in 2000 but had the exact same list today, would we be a failure?

In the last 10 years we've never once had a problem with kicking winning scores.

Obviously we had a problem kicking a winning score in 2000 or we would have won the GF

[Jaded No More 68,958]

Obviously we had a problem kicking a winning score in 2000 or we would have won the GF

You can't seriously believe that we lost the 2000 GF because we didn't have a good enough forward line.

Oh dear!

(For your information, we were 4th in the league for points 'For' in 2000).

[Jarka 767]

"Having good forwards straightens up midfields."

I responded to CB.

Robbo kicked 75 goals in 2005. Pity he is not a key forward.

Thanks

Do you understand what benefits a Key forward bring to a team?

Robo isn't a key forward, he will never play the role of a big contested marking CHF, he takes speccies but as the number one target up forward he is easily countered, shown by the fact that he has kicked more than 50 goals in a season only once.

Your welcome

[Jarka 767]

You can't seriously believe that we lost the 2000 GF because we didn't have a good enough forward line.

Oh dear!

(For your information, we were 4th in the league for points 'For' in 2000).

What's your actual argument here?

[Jarka 767]

You can't seriously believe that we lost the 2000 GF because we didn't have a good enough forward line.

Oh dear!

(For your information, we were 4th in the league for points 'For' in 2000).

In 2000 we had Neitz and Schwartz playing as key forwards, both taken prior to Daniher's reign.

Thanks for proving my point

[Jaded No More 68,958]

What's your actual argument here?

I'm not really sure what your argument is.

You're saying we've failed to develop key forwards, and yet we've never had a problem with kicking goals.

I've highlighted that we have a fair number of key forwards in the wings, and that we've drafted mainly midfielders post 2000 because that is what we needed most.

What exactly do you disagree with?

[Jarka 767]

I'm not really sure what your argument is.

You're saying we've failed to develop key forwards, and yet we've never had a problem with kicking goals.

I've highlighted that we have a fair number of key forwards in the wings, and that we've drafted mainly midfielders post 2000 because that is what we needed most.

What exactly do you disagree with?

Read my posts, it's no that difficult to comprehend, but do you really think we've never had a problem of kicking goals?

Oh dear!

[Jaded No More 68,958]

Read my posts, it's no that difficult to comprehend, but do you really think we've never had a problem of kicking goals?

Oh dear!

Considering that since 2000, we've been in the top 6 for average goals 5 times, I would suggest that no, kicking goals is not our problem.

Getting our hands on the ball in the first place, is our problem!

This argument is now stale and boring, I've said what I had to say, you didn't want to take any of it on board. I'm done.

[deanox 9,931]

jarka, im finding it hard to follow all of the arguments in here. could you do me a favour and write out a post and specify what exactly it is you are saying? is it that we've failed to develop key forwards? that seems to be the crux of your argument. and im interested to know why you think we've failed. poor recruiting would be high on my list with rogers, molan and smith, but then injury has also an issue. do you think we should have bought a player? or maybe tried to trade with one of our ruckmen?

you say the last 10 years has been a failure, and yes in terms of premiership success it has been, but in that case the last 10 years have been a failure for more than half of the competition, at least 10 teams, who havnt won a flag in that time. again i ask what factors do you think are the reasons for our failure. i point strongly towards a massive rebuilding phase since 2000 which has been thwarted by a combination of the draft pick penalties and by injuries - in particular the OP curse and the horrible luck a couple of young kpp had (smith and molan). some good fortune with those two players would seem to counter all your arguments thus far. do you think we are 2 players short of being a premiership contender? i dont think thats a bad argument.

perhaps you could grant me one post outlining what you have been trying to argue in this thread, as a summary, and another post with the answers to the above questions. it might be worth keeping in mind that this thread was about newton, so a lot of posters in here (me included) directed our questions and discussions around the development of juice to date.

[drdrake 3,178]

Do you understand what benefits a Key forward bring to a team?

Robo isn't a key forward, he will never play the role of a big contested marking CHF, he takes speccies but as the number one target up forward he is easily countered, shown by the fact that he has kicked more than 50 goals in a season only once.

Your welcome

Against St Kilda we had a full strength forward line, we are talking about KPP and one point is that our midfield hasn't been able to give them enough supply. Not only this year, we get beaten because our midfield gets beaten. You talk about straighten us up Miller has played most games and is a good lead up forward, thats what straightens us up a CHF not your FF line because coming out of defense you still need to hit an option leading in the middle of the ground. We are talking about Newton at FF, we didn't get enough ball inside 50m and I would hate to see a stat for inside 30m we would be rock bottom in the league.

[timD 994]

I don't think Jarka has an argument, he has several half-arguments that he defends with the ultimate "we don't have a flag and therefore I am right".

I could say that West coast in 200o-2006 were a disgrace that failed to find one good key forward and my evidence is that they hadn't won a flag. THen they won one without a key foward of any significant talent, proving...

Nup, stuffed if I know what Jarka is saying.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I guess having Neitz and Robbo does not constitute good forwards.

No.

Neitz and Robertson did a very good job.

The problem is that for much of the game they were the only forwards, meaning they had no support, there were fewer options up forward to kick it to and St Kilda were able to easily get back and out-number them.

The problem was when the mid fielders looked up, had no options, over-used the ball as a result and then turned the ball over.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No.

Neitz and Robertson did a very good job.

The problem is that for much of the game they were the only forwards, meaning they had no support, there were fewer options up forward to kick it to and St Kilda were able to easily get back and out-number them.

The problem was when the mid fielders looked up, had no options, over-used the ball as a result and then turned the ball over.

Your argument was debunked months ago why do you hang on to it?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Your argument was debunked months ago why do you hang on to it?

No, you just said it was debunked.

[Jarka 767]

I don't think Jarka has an argument, he has several half-arguments that he defends with the ultimate "we don't have a flag and therefore I am right".

I could say that West coast in 200o-2006 were a disgrace that failed to find one good key forward and my evidence is that they hadn't won a flag. THen they won one without a key foward of any significant talent, proving...

Nup, stuffed if I know what Jarka is saying.

We have failed to develop key forwards and ruckman tim, it's something we need to make sure we do properly in the future.

Prove that I'm wrong with this statement.

West Coast's midfield got them over the line, we don't have a midfield like that, it's not that hard to comprehend.

[old55 23,609]

We have failed to develop key forwards and ruckman tim, it's something we need to make sure we do properly in the future.

Prove that I'm wrong with this statement.

We've failed relative to whom?

Who are the key forwards that other clubs have developed who were available to us?

[timD 994]

Jarka, I really do not think you have an argument at all. You could very well abandon your KPP line and just argue that as we do not have a great midfield we have wasted ten years.

[deanox 9,931]

...

any reason, jarka, why you did not respond to my post?

[Jarka 767]

Jarka, I really do not think you have an argument at all. You could very well abandon your KPP line and just argue that as we do not have a great midfield we have wasted ten years.

But that wouldn't be accurate

[Jarka 767]

any reason, jarka, why you did not respond to my post?

Sorry deanox, wasn't done intentionally. I've tried to debate and alot of others have come in and I've must of lost track of your posts, also responding to posts that had had to have been deleted by mods has confused me more, it's been a little tricky keeping track of arguments when they dissappear.

When I get some more time I'll go back and respond properly.

[Jarka 767]

We've failed relative to whom?

Who are the key forwards that other clubs have developed who were available to us?

This has already been mentioned before, I don't want to continually go over the same stuff. Look at one of RR's posts (the ones that Nasher didn't delete) and look at my response to it.

[Nasher 33,616]

Sorry deanox, wasn't done intentionally. I've tried to debate and alot of others have come in and I've must of lost track of your posts, also responding to posts that had had to have been deleted by mods has confused me more, it's been a little tricky keeping track of arguments when they dissappear.

Nothing that was relevant to the topic at hand has been deleted.

[Jarka 767]

Nothing that was relevant to the topic at hand has been deleted.

That's exactly my point, it's hard when you have to sift through the garbage.