Season 2024 Over for Clayton Oliver

[demon3165 2,721]

I don't care about awards and by the way I haven't said Oliver is not a good player but you guys fawn over stats as if it's the only thing that matters and get blinded by them.

[Jaded No More 68,958]

Just now, demon3165 said:

I don't care about awards and by the way I haven't said Oliver is not a good player but you guys fawn over stats as if it's the only thing that matters and get blinded by them.

So winning 4 B&Fs, including in a premiership year and two coaches awards and 3 AAs by 26, is meaningless? 

 

[MrFreeze 1,966]

13 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Oliver is the only player since Gary Ablett Jnr to win back to back coaches awards, but of course 18 AFL coaches know a lot less than pundits on the internet so please carry on.

By the way, disposal efficiency 

Daicos 67%
Clarry 66%
🙄

IMO score involvements is the best measure of effective ball use forward of centre 

[demon3165 2,721]

Just now, Jaded No More said:

Inside mids always have worse disposal efficiency stats because they’re almost always disposing the football under immense pressure and with little time to spare. 

My eyes, and Clarry’s accolades tell me that he’s an elite footballer and one of the best ever inside mids. Not sure how anyone is arguing against that because he’s had a down season, where he was still above average for disposals and clearances. 

He is not elite in late 21 he started becoming an outside player and Viney was part of that change when he stopped trying to be a rugby player and just dished the ball off and Oliver was the better for it.

[DEE fence 5,018]

8 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

And Jeremy hasn't? The guy kicked 62 goals in his second year of the competition as a 19 year old.

Cameron is one of, if not, the most consistent players in the competition and is still at his absolute best at the current age of 31 years of age.

He's already kicked 62 goals for the year and doesn't look like slowing down anytime soon.

Give me Jeremy Cameron everyday of the week.

The bit where I said brilliant one day didn't register? up until recently Oliver has been consistent like no other, that is the only thing I am comparing between him and Jezza. Otherwise this is an apples and oranges argument. And as much as Jezza is great and would have happily had him in my team I've seen him go missing or get the yips, he hasn't has had much work put into him, as the opposition has put into Clarry.  

The other thing that Clayton was doing from day one (and I think the only thing I ever agreed with PF about) is putting his team mates into space creating the scoring chains from turnovers (you know that's hard to do right?), I really hope Daicos has a good career he is a jet, and seems like a really decent kid. I just hope he is as durable as Clarry, because he has alot of attention coming his way and I hope he copes with it as well as Clarry has. I couldn't give a rat's freckle how many goals Clarry kicks, would be nice if he kicked more but not why he is in the team.

 

 

 

[SPC 3,551]

Clarry is the greatest hand baller since diesel. He could even be better. Stuff kicking it, when you have golden hands!!

[demon3165 2,721]

3 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

So winning 4 B&Fs, including in a premiership year and two coaches awards and 3 AAs by 26, is meaningless? 

 

It must be hard for you to understand,  just because I don’t excited over awards doesn't mean he doesn't he’s not worthy of them, but I will say B&F voting in most clubs are a bit strange to say the least.

[KozzyCan 764]

1 minute ago, Jaded No More said:

Inside mids always have worse disposal efficiency stats because they’re almost always disposing the football under immense pressure and with little time to spare. 

My eyes, and Clarry’s accolades tell me that he’s an elite footballer and one of the best ever inside mids. Not sure how anyone is arguing against that because he’s had a down season, where he was still above average for disposals and clearances. 

Oliver at his best is exceptional in close at using the ball by hands to get it to the outside. His kicking has never been much chop, pretty much always skies it which helps his disposal efficiency as it's safer but not as effective at generating scores. A common problem across our midfield.

Daicos is an elite ball user, goes for dangerous kicks that totally break the game open.

My fear with Oliver is that inside mids who can only do it one way are seemingly nowhere near as valuable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. Game is being played more and more on the outside these days.

Being able to move the ball becoming more important than being able to win it at the source.

[demon3165 2,721]

4 minutes ago, SPC said:

Clarry is the greatest hand baller since diesel. He could even be better. Stuff kicking it, when you have golden hands!!

Forget this year when obviously he's had his issues mind and body, but he also puts other players in no win situations or he just rushes his kicked and handballs.

[demon3165 2,721]

4 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Oliver at his best is exceptional in close at using the ball by hands to get it to the outside. His kicking has never been much chop, pretty much always skies it which helps his disposal efficiency as it's safer but not as effective at generating scores. A common problem across our midfield.

Daicos is an elite ball user, goes for dangerous kicks that totally break the game open.

My fear with Oliver is that inside mids who can only do it one way are seemingly nowhere near as valuable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. Game is being played more and more on the outside these days.

Being able to move the ball becoming more important than being able to win it at the source.

Someone who understands football....

[Neil Crompton 5,562]

2 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

 

Being able to move the ball becoming more important than being able to win it at the source.

Doesn’t someone have to “win it (the ball) at the source” before you can then “move the ball”?

[KozzyCan 764]

3 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Doesn’t someone have to “win it (the ball) at the source” before you can then “move the ball”?

No because turnovers are a thing.

[Jaded No More 68,958]

12 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Oliver at his best is exceptional in close at using the ball by hands to get it to the outside. His kicking has never been much chop, pretty much always skies it which helps his disposal efficiency as it's safer but not as effective at generating scores. A common problem across our midfield.

Daicos is an elite ball user, goes for dangerous kicks that totally break the game open.

My fear with Oliver is that inside mids who can only do it one way are seemingly nowhere near as valuable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. Game is being played more and more on the outside these days.

Being able to move the ball becoming more important than being able to win it at the source.

Finals are still all about contest and winning the pressure game. 

[BW511 2,672]

A fit, confident and aggressive Oliver would be a welcome sight in 2025.

If he can get there, we are in for a treat. It’s a big if, though.

[KozzyCan 764]

Just now, Jaded No More said:

Finals are still all about contest and winning the pressure game. 

Pressure yes, clearance and contested ball not as much. Take the Geelong and Hawks wins. Both Hawthorn and Geelong have pretty average midfields on paper and were up against two of the best midfields in the comp. Both dominated by stiffing their opponents ball movement and getting the ball quickly into their forwardline rather than contest/defence.

Same thing happened to Carlton who were pretty even at the contest but got murdered on the outside.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

7 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Finals are still all about contest and winning the pressure game. 

Yes, but you have to Qualify first 

Goodwin needs to upgrade a number of areas in his Coaching template 

there are still high scoring finals where pressure is Full on

[djr 1,544]

4 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

No because turnovers are a thing.

So in your alternative universe, it's more important that no one wins the ball at centre bounces but waits for the turnover. Imagine both teams adopting this strategy. Everyone will be standing around and looking at each other.

[Neil Crompton 5,562]

16 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

No because turnovers are a thing.

Ok then, Doesn’t someone have to “win it (the ball) at the turnover” before you can then “move the ball”?

[binman 43,025]

3 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

Finals are still all about contest and winning the pressure game. 

Never was that more evident than in the cracking GWS Swans game.

That game highlighted that whilst a good turnover, transition game get you to finals (and therefore silky skills like say Guldens' are important), come finals you still need the hard at it bulls like heeney.

The swans won that game because of their intensity and pressure in the second half, not their much vaunted skill and transition game.

Edited September 8 by binman

[KozzyCan 764]

1 minute ago, djr said:

So in your alternative universe, it's more important that no one wins the ball at centre bounces but waits for the turnover. Imagine both teams adopting this strategy. Everyone will be standing around and looking at each other.

Why is it all or nothing? Yes you need ball winners but I'm saying the balance has shifted from when they were 90% of why teams won games. For a while footy used to live in contest and repeat stoppages so having those guys was gold, it was a war of attrition. These days teams that can't move the ball properly are being left behind.

[demon3165 2,721]

4 minutes ago, djr said:

So in your alternative universe, it's more important that no one wins the ball at centre bounces but waits for the turnover. Imagine both teams adopting this strategy. Everyone will be standing around and looking at each other.

That's not what he is saying, the style of gameplan in 21 was contest to contest it is not played that way now it's an open style and we got slaughtered at times doing that.

[KozzyCan 764]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

Never was that more evident than in the cracking GWS Swans game.

That game highlighted that whilst a good turnover, transition game get you to finals (and therefore silky skills like say Guldens'), come finals you still.heed the hard at it bulls like heeney.

The swans won that game because of their intensity and pressure in the second half, not their much vaunted skill.

I reckon their skills helped!

 

4 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Ok then, Doesn’t someone have to “win it (the ball) at the turnover” before you can then “move the ball”?

We're talking about Oliver here.

[djr 1,544]

2 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Why is it all or nothing? Yes you need ball winners but I'm saying the balance has shifted from when they were 90% of why teams won games. For a while footy used to live in contest and repeat stoppages so having those guys was gold, it was a war of attrition. These days teams that can't move the ball properly are being left behind.

I agree. Just playing with you. Inside bulls have lost their lustre mainly because the game today is about creating space to run and, as you say, move the ball. Port Adelaide possess the modern game elite midfielders who can extract the ball out of centre and into space. That said, they were terrible the other night. Hawthorn are doing it well, and teams are struggling to lock down their skilled run and carry. Sydney are the same.

[dazzledavey36 54,951]

54 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

The bit where I said brilliant one day didn't register? up until recently Oliver has been consistent like no other, that is the only thing I am comparing between him and Jezza. Otherwise this is an apples and oranges argument. And as much as Jezza is great and would have happily had him in my team I've seen him go missing or get the yips, he hasn't has had much work put into him, as the opposition has put into Clarry.  

The other thing that Clayton was doing from day one (and I think the only thing I ever agreed with PF about) is putting his team mates into space creating the scoring chains from turnovers (you know that's hard to do right?), I really hope Daicos has a good career he is a jet, and seems like a really decent kid. I just hope he is as durable as Clarry, because he has alot of attention coming his way and I hope he copes with it as well as Clarry has. I couldn't give a rat's freckle how many goals Clarry kicks, would be nice if he kicked more but not why he is in the team.

 

 

 

Oliver has been missing all year and Cameron has pretty much been given the best defender since he was 19. 

Oliver has struggled with the tag all year, and please don't give me the injury excuse.

Oliver's last two years has been poor. That's a combination of his own discretion due to his off field behaviour and [censored] poor preparation and then not listening to the medicos around managing his hammy issues.

We're paying this guy a ridiculous salary and so far he hasn't performed remotely close to that expectation. 

If you do a poll to neutral supporters who'd they take out of Cameron or Oliver I can guarantee 98% of the public would take Cameron.

He is a genuine superstar of the game and it's ridiculous how he's still performing at an elite level at 31 years of age. That comes down to being the ultimate professional and elite preparer every single year. 

 

[picket fence 17,172]

1 hour ago, Demon17 said:

Any club that does deep due diligence on Clayton will pass on a trade.

He'll be staying with us as a consequence. 

We have to help improve for him to be of value in 2025.

What does that mean, Due Dilligence? You mean whats known or what??