On 21/07/2024 at 12:56, deanox said:

Just to flag,Clarry is currently:

- 4th at the club for tackles (total and average per game)

- Leading the club for disposals (both)

- 7th for total effective kicks (the top 5 are all defenders who always take safe options so lead this stat, 6th is Langdon)

- Leading the club for total contested possessions (2nd behind Gawn in average)

- Leading the club for total possessions.

- 2nd for turnovers (unsurprising because of how many posessions he's had, but he is second behind Viney here).

- Streets ahead in first for ground ball gets.

- 2nd for centre clearances, 3rd for stoppage clearances.

- 4th for pressure acts.

And he's done that while averaging 77.7% tog which is 18th at the club (Ben Brown the only non regular above him)

 

Yeah he's having a down year by his standards, but a) he isn't on his own here and b) he is still performing statistically as well as anyone else in the midfield.

 

 

I think you’re cherry picking stats. Oliver has polled Coaches Votes in just one game this season. 

  On 21/07/2024 at 13:03, Doug Reemer said:

Couldn't disagree more. 
 

Viney could easily be used as a forward. He is a better kick for goal than he gets credit for. He applies pressure and tackles like a beast and can take a mark.

No doubt he can/could do it but who does he replace?

Has to be the Sparrow role and whatever that is, it is obviously considered quite important because he is definitely not doing anything with the footy.

Will not be ANB or Chin, their running appears to be the cornerstone for our defensive structure.

If not those he’s in a fight with quite a few blokes with more modern skill sets 

 

  On 21/07/2024 at 14:21, Fat Tony said:

I think you’re cherry picking stats. Oliver has polled Coaches Votes in just one game this season. 

Do you ever think that the problem here is that Clarry has set an impossible standard for himself? 

Imagine not pulling coaches votes regularly being the condition for getting traded. 
Oliver has been playing at a level so far above normal for like 90% of midfielders for his entire career. 
He is having his first ever below standard season, which is still comparable to most midfielders best seasons. And there are very clear and specific reasons why that is happening.

I understand that his pay packet demands he stays at the level we’ve all become accustomed to, but I also understand that he’s a human who has battled a lot of demons (pardon the pun), and is struggling with his fitness (77% average TOG is certainly not normal for him). 
To trade him now, especially when his value would be relatively low, is not only a ridiculously poor list move for a team lacking midfield depth, but also a culturally shocking decision. 

We asked Clarry to do certain things to remain part of our club. He has done those things as far as I’m aware. To go back on our word destroys the trust that the club has built with the playing list. It’s fraught with danger and it tells players that we won’t accept imperfection and flaws and fluctuations in their careers. 

We have a whole host of very talented youngsters that we want to keep on our list long term. How do you think they’ll feel seeing one the greatest players to ever pull on the red and blue, traded after a poor 12 months?

Imagine if Richmond had gone ahead and traded a problematic Dusty all those years ago. 3 flags gone. 

I can’t wait for the nuffies to call for Trac’s head next year when he’s rightfully going to struggle (probably) on the field with form/fitness. 

  On 21/07/2024 at 09:58, Demonstone said:

Guy Bradshaw?  

Guss' long lost cousin? Can he play footy?

  On 21/07/2024 at 14:21, Fat Tony said:

I think you’re cherry picking stats. Oliver has polled Coaches Votes in just one game this season. 

I don't think I'm cherry picking stats. Those stats are Clarry's bread and butter in good years too, and he is still at the top of the club for them.

He absolutely hasn't been at his best, I acknowledged that. My point is he hasn't been the complete disaster some people are making out. Someone claimed he didn't tackle, yet the stats show he is leading us for tackles.

It's true he isn't influencing games as he did previous years, this is reflected in the coaches votes.

 

Instead of comparing to other MFC players, we could compare his league wide:

34th for disposals

17th for contested possessions

9th for ground ball gets

42th for total clearances

41th for tackles

 

Not terrible by any stretch, he is still giving top line AFL numbers. But he isn't top 10 like he has been, maybe only top 50. He is ranked 35 in the the AFL ranking points, 74 in total fantasy points etc.

 

Edited July 21, 2024Jul 21 by deanox

I have a feeling that Clayton's hand is still causing him problems. His normal one touch surety and approach to loose balls looks less than it was.

  On 21/07/2024 at 14:21, Fat Tony said:

I think you’re cherry picking stats. Oliver has polled Coaches Votes in just one game this season. 

Impressive cherries, though.

  On 21/07/2024 at 23:02, Demonised said:

I have a feeling that Clayton's hand is still causing him problems. His normal one touch surety and approach to loose balls looks less than it was.

Yup, agree with this. If he needs any further surgeries I really hope they can do them early to give him the best chance of a good preseason. Partly wonder if it's psychological too - been kicked very hard in the hard a few times now, would surely cause some unconcious hesitancy (similar worry over situation with Petty's foot).

  On 21/07/2024 at 23:02, Demonised said:

I have a feeling that Clayton's hand is still causing him problems. His normal one touch surety and approach to loose balls looks less than it was.

I recall last week he copped one and really winced, yesterday he had plenty of times where he protected his hand

Happy Birthday to Clarrie from everyone at RevHQ

  On 21/07/2024 at 23:02, Demonised said:

I have a feeling that Clayton's hand is still causing him problems. His normal one touch surety and approach to loose balls looks less than it was.

Yep, he may have fitness issues, but his lack of competitiveness around stoppage is very concerning. Numerous times his opponent would grab the ball and just waltz straight past him. His ground coverage isn't that bad, which is why i don't think the fitness excuse explains it all. 

Its that, or he just lacks the desire to apply himself 100%. 

  On 21/07/2024 at 21:25, Jaded No More said:

We asked Clarry to do certain things to remain part of our club. He has done those things as far as I’m aware. To go back on our word destroys the trust that the club has built with the playing list. It’s fraught with danger and it tells players that we won’t accept imperfection and flaws and fluctuations in their careers. 

 

Oliver was told to become more professional or leave when the trade window was open in October last year. He then was sent home for our pre-season camp in January for being unprofessional and he was not allowed to start preseason with the team until late February. The club has the right to revisit things at the end of the year IMO.

  On 22/07/2024 at 00:09, Fat Tony said:

Oliver was told to become more professional or leave when the trade window was open in October last year. He then was sent home for our pre-season camp in January for being unprofessional and he was not allowed to start preseason with the team until late February. The club has the right to revisit things at the end of the year IMO.

Mental health recovery is never linear.

He has missed 1 game this year, and that was due to injury. To me that says he is doing all the right things since he was banished from training in the pre-season.

If he wasn't doing the right things off the field, firstly you can bet your bottom dollar the bin divers in the media would be ALL over it, and secondly he wouldn't be playing, and going to WA with Kosi, and getting hugs from Goody post game.

Of course if he goes off the rails again the club will absolutely revisit the idea of trading him, and so they should!

But they will absolutely categorically not trade him because his on field output is down. I think they expected this to be the case this year, in fact, they were fine with him playing very little football this year anyway as long as he got himself right off the field. That he's played all but one game is a massive bonus.

  On 21/07/2024 at 21:43, deanox said:

I don't think I'm cherry picking stats. Those stats are Clarry's bread and butter in good years too, and he is still at the top of the club for them.

He absolutely hasn't been at his best, I acknowledged that. My point is he hasn't been the complete disaster some people are making out. Someone claimed he didn't tackle, yet the stats show he is leading us for tackles.

It's true he isn't influencing games as he did previous years, this is reflected in the coaches votes.

 

Instead of comparing to other MFC players, we could compare his league wide:

34th for disposals

17th for contested possessions

9th for ground ball gets

42th for total clearances

41th for tackles

 

Not terrible by any stretch, he is still giving top line AFL numbers. But he isn't top 10 like he has been, maybe only top 50. He is ranked 35 in the the AFL ranking points, 74 in total fantasy points etc.

 

Those stats are average volume for a centre square midfielder, but they don’t take into account the poor effectiveness of his disposal.

Oliver has been an elite volume midfielder but a relatively poorly skilled ball user. Without elite pace, he is now getting only average stat numbers (for a centre square midfielder) and he can no longer breakaway from congestion, which means he is not getting the same depth and penetration from his disposals. His drop off in explosiveness has reduced both his volume and the effectiveness of his possessions. The latter is the main issue with his game and he is a liability unless this is fixed.

The way I see it, he will either go back to being a top line midfielder (with elite breakaway pace) or a C-Grade midfield plodder for the rest of his career. (He is not able to play any other position.) We don’t know if he will get his acceleration and power back to an elite level, but this is the only way he becomes an asset again. I have my doubts. What I do know is that no AFL team can be a premiership team with a C-Grade inside midfielder taking home 10% of our salary cap.

  On 22/07/2024 at 00:16, Jaded No More said:

Mental health recovery is never linear.

He has missed 1 game this year, and that was due to injury. To me that says he is doing all the right things since he was banished from training in the pre-season.

If he wasn't doing the right things off the field, firstly you can bet your bottom dollar the bin divers in the media would be ALL over it, and secondly he wouldn't be playing, and going to WA with Kosi, and getting hugs from Goody post game.

Of course if he goes off the rails again the club will absolutely revisit the idea of trading him, and so they should!

But they will absolutely categorically not trade him because his on field output is down. I think they expected this to be the case this year, in fact, they were fine with him playing very little football this year anyway as long as he got himself right off the field. That he's played all but one game is a massive bonus.

I think Goodwin is ruthless and would trade him in a heartbeat if he could get a deal that puts us in a much better position. He knows that Oliver is not a good example or influence on the younger players, is a media distraction and that he is being paid 10% of our cap.

  On 22/07/2024 at 00:23, Fat Tony said:

Those stats are average volume for a centre square midfielder, but they don’t take into account the poor effectiveness of his disposal.

Oliver has been an elite volume midfielder but a relatively poorly skilled ball user. Without elite pace, he is now getting only average stat numbers (for a centre square midfielder) and he can no longer breakaway from congestion, which means he is not getting the same depth and penetration from his disposals. His drop off in explosiveness has reduced both his volume and the effectiveness of his possessions. The latter is the main issue with his game and he is a liability unless this is fixed.

The way I see it, he will either go back to being a top line midfielder (with elite breakaway pace) or a C-Grade midfield plodder for the rest of his career. (He is not able to play any other position.) We don’t know if he will get his acceleration and power back to an elite level, but this is the only way he becomes an asset again. I have my doubts. What I do know is that no AFL team can be a premiership team with a C-Grade inside midfielder taking home 10% of our salary cap.

I generally agree with this. Though, so long as Oliver abides by team rules off field, I expect he'll be given until next season before his contract is evaluated against what he does on field. 

Oliver is out of form and he needs to have an interrupted preseason to play good footy. That is the key. 

If he can do that at this club - you keep him around on that salary.

If he can’t, then you have to ask the questions. 

To me, after that start to the year - his current form was immaterial to any trade. 2024 was always going to be a write off.

Any chance we give our multiple club champion, premiership winning midfielder an uninterrupted pre-season before we talk about trading him? It’s his first down year ever and if we’re being honest it was probably expected after the troubles he had before this season.

Clayton deserves far more respect than he is getting from some. 

Clarry is the best contested possession player I have ever seen, also though not relevant to the discussion, my favourite Demon player.

Judging him on this year is just ridiculous, given all his issues, that have been well documented.

As someone posted above, despite all those issues, he is still ranked in the top 35-40 mids in the AFL.

Lets see how he is going next year, after hopefully putting most of the issues behind him.

I think he might make a lot of people eat humble pie.

 

Edited July 22, 2024Jul 22 by Redleg

  On 22/07/2024 at 00:34, Fat Tony said:

I think Goodwin is ruthless and would trade him in a heartbeat if he could get a deal that puts us in a much better position. He knows that Oliver is not a good example or influence on the younger players, is a media distraction and that he is being paid 10% of our cap.

I don't think you know Goodwin all that well if you think he would trade him in a heartbeat.

The reality is that players of Oliver's calibre come around so rarely. They also get traded so rarely, and for good reason.

Trading him after one poor year for reduced value would 1000% not put us in a better position. Please tell me who you think we could get in return for Clarry that would make us better? 

As for not being a good influence or a media distraction; do you want to have a chat about Max Gawn all those years ago? How about Dusty? Toby Greene? Ummm remember the time Lance Franklin took a mysterious year off football? 

You cannot expect loyalty from players, and then turn around and throw it back in their face at the slightest hiccup. 
Oliver is a champion of our club. He's won 4 B&Fs, 2 coaches awards, and is a 3 time AA. And he's 26! 

Were you a perfect human at 26? 

  On 21/07/2024 at 10:22, The Taciturn Demon said:

The more I see of Windsor the more I think he was absolutely the right choice at our pick and the more I think he's not just a winger. 

Interesting to see what we can snag at (what seems like it might be) a similar pick in the coming draft. 

His ability to win the hard ball places him well to play inside the centre square rather than outside it much more than I thought in March

  On 22/07/2024 at 04:31, Waltham33 said:

His ability to win the hard ball places him well to play inside the centre square rather than outside it much more than I thought in March

Yes, exactly. I expected a goal-a-game speedster with little contested ability. A bit of a risk with such a high pick. 

What I've seen is a very quick but extremely tenacious player who sticks difficult tackles, chases hard and doesn't mind physical contact at all. 

  On 21/07/2024 at 10:22, The Taciturn Demon said:

The more I see of Windsor the more I think he was absolutely the right choice at our pick and the more I think he's not just a winger. 

Interesting to see what we can snag at (what seems like it might be) a similar pick in the coming draft. 

His ability to win the hard ball places him well to play inside the centre square rather than outside it much more than I thought in March

Well I never, Clayton Oliver is a List Clogger... 🫠

  On 22/07/2024 at 04:15, Jaded No More said:

I don't think you know Goodwin all that well if you think he would trade him in a heartbeat. You left out the bit where I said " if he could get a deal that puts us in a much better position".

The reality is that players of Oliver's calibre come around so rarely. They also get traded so rarely, and for good reason. Firstly, most player trades are driven by the player involved and not driven by the club. Secondly, clubs have been much more active in trading 'bad' contracts off their books in recent years. Grundy was sold off by the Pies. Mitchell sold off by the Hawks.

Trading him after one poor year for reduced value would 1000% not put us in a better position. Please tell me who you think we could get in return for Clarry that would make us better?  The key to being successful in the AFL is in managing the salary cap. We will find other players. Look at how quickly Hawthorn has recovered from trading Mitchell and O'Meara.

As for not being a good influence or a media distraction; do you want to have a chat about Max Gawn all those years ago? How about Dusty? Toby Greene? Ummm remember the time Lance Franklin took a mysterious year off football? 

You cannot expect loyalty from players, and then turn around and throw it back in their face at the slightest hiccup. I think this has been the "slightest hiccup". You are underselling it. I also think our players would understand and not think it was disloyal to put him up for trade given the history. 

Oliver is a champion of our club. He's won 4 B&Fs, 2 coaches awards, and is a 3 time AA. Agreed. He always will be. And he's 26! He is 27 (today). Happy birthday Clarry!

Were you a perfect human at 26? Definitely not.