PODCAST: Rd 12 vs Fremantle

[dazzledavey36 55,371]

7 minutes ago, Doug Reemer said:

I left a voice message after the Eagles game and was smugly dismissed when I stated we’d be lucky to make the 4 this year 

Good luck explaining this result. Time to wake up and smell the Roses. This era is over, if you can’t see it, after today. I’d like to order a pair of the “rose” coloured glasses the podcast panel is watching this season through!

Brilliant 😅

[Pipefitter 2,168]

The Petty experiment up forward  has to end. What can getting 2 touches a game be doing for his confidence? Get him back in defence so he can touch the leather again. 

[mpc 148]

The only thing that gives me the slightest bit of hope this season is that other teams have suffered disastrous losses during their premiership years and recovered, most recently Richmond 2017:

"In Richmond’s drought-breaking 2017 premiership year, it was stunned by St Kilda in a Round 16 encounter at Marvel Stadium. The Tigers had one meagre goal on the board at half-time and trailed by a whopping 82 points – 1.4 (10) to 14.8 (92). They lost by 67 points – 10.11 (71) to 21.12 (138)." https://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/966241/the-richmond-st-kilda-twilight-zone

We can also look to last year after 12 rounds two preliminary finalist teams only had 4 wins, and were 14th and 15th on the ladder. https://footyforecaster.com/AFL/Ladder/2023_Round_12

Unfortunately I think we have bigger issues, but I still hold out hope we somehow recover from this. After all we are only a game outside the top 4 with 12 rounds to go.

Edited June 2 by mpc

[layzie 34,023]

11 hours ago, Doug Reemer said:

I left a voice message after the Eagles game and was smugly dismissed when I stated we’d be lucky to make the 4 this year 

Good luck explaining this result. Time to wake up and smell the Roses. This era is over, if you can’t see it, after today. I’d like to order a pair of the “rose” coloured glasses the podcast panel is watching this season through!

Well I hope you call in this week because I do enjoy your contributions. 

[dino rover 714]

Can we put to bed please some time honoured demon homilies ?

1 we are in the premiership window- but we go out of the finals in straight sets

2 we have a great midfield- we have some great midfielders but we are slow on transition and weak on clearances particularly centre clearances 

3 big losses always explained by loading

4 we can get by without real ruck relief for Max

5 we are a young team - yes but not in some key positions/ roles - ruck max key backs may McDonald key fwds Bb

6 we can win flag in 2024

7 we will revert to a finals winning style (not the red and blueprint) come finals - switching game styles

let’s face the music try some young players and have a clean out of the NQR cadre we have collected 

 

[Lefty 412]

Kudos to you guys being able to front up an do a podcast tonight given that insipid performance.

Saw a post on Twitter by a guy who calls himself Footy Degenerate. His post is a pretty good summation.

"The Malice Springs Disaster

First of all, hats off to Fremantle. Played the game right. Too quick, too skilful and too efficient, well done.

Now.. The Dees.

Aboration? Mulligan? No.

Every loss has been a thumping and concern in one way or another. There’s a pattern. We haven’t had a 4 qtr performance all year. Today was the first time a team punished us rightfully on the scoreboard for 4 Qtrs.

Our new Gameplan doesn’t suit our squad. We don’t have the skills to play it, the boys haven’t bought into it, we are turning it over in defence and centre square and our defence has been under siege as a result.

I’ve said all year McQualter has offered nothing. I’m not seeing any “Richmond chaos ball”. Stafford hasn’t improved our fwd line ( cohesively or individually ). Both have ALOT of work to do.

Our wins haven’t been convincing. Bulldogs ( they had their chances ), Hawks ( they were awful ), Port ( they should have won ), Crows ( didn’t take their chances ), Tigers ( we were awful ), Cats ( played one very good quarter ) and Saints ( they were gross ).

None of the boys have improved on 2023 form. None. And with 16+ players Under 30, that’s a concern. Actually T-Mac has, but it’s his last or 2nd last year.

Without Max, Lever, May and Trac, we’d be in an awful spot.

How we took a Gameplan that worked and could easily have gotten us to a Prelim in ‘23 bar awful finishing, and  turn it into this inept Gameplan is beyond me.

There were ZERO red flags on our Gameplan, just on our fwd line setup and goalkicking accuracy. Absolute overreaction from our coaches.

Yet here we are.
Easy to play against.
No mongrel.
No confidence in what they are doing.
Little belief.
And stuff all depth.

Media cos ya to ask oppo coaches “how you guys gonna go against Trac, Viney and Clarry?”

Inside they are loving it. Cos they aren’t the 2021-2023 versions of themselves. It’s a broken system, with broken confidence and morale. ( on the field and in the stands ).

Richmond got spanked in 2017 by St Kilda in a similar fashion and went on to win the flag. They ensured it “made them” and didn’t break them.

Can the Dees do something similar?

Only time will tell.

They’ve got the Cattle, but the Farmer has to make some changes, otherwise their season will be Roast Beef in a few weeks time.

PS I obviously don’t “Hate” the MFC, but I do hate what those in charge are doing to it on the field."

[dpositive 1,708]

Depressing and interesting. I will try and catch the podcast .

The first four minutes the red and blue side dominated. Then cute handballs , silly overuse and the usual umpiring failures led to turnovers and loss of structure.

As the dockers confidence grew aided again by umpire protection the demons skill levels failed under pressure.

Handballs and kicks that fell short or off target seemed to benefit dockers opponents on their own. picking contests wher we were outnumbered seemed to be the desired delivery.

There was never any apparent coaching response to the most simple arts of the game. Tag an opponent and man up.

good luck with any analysis. I think a kick up the [censored] is needed for some players.

Petty is the most interesting dilemma. since rumours of Adelaide millions he has not been the same. Perhaps he is trying to protect his only asset, his body and not playing fearlessly. I did suggest that he should have been told when not traded that he would be released this year only after he had contributed to another flag when his value would be increased. No Flag he would be given away for a lot less.  But maybe he was offered an even better deal from Adelaide play poorly, bring down the dees and we will pay you even more. Drop him until; he can contribute sytrongly.

Trac and Max hold up even Clarry, while not dominating is still contributing. the roles of all midfielders rely on each component playing their part and that seems to be failing due to almost arragance and no protectiuon from umpires.

I have mentioned the defence / surge  strategy and still support it but every component must play their part. That seems to be the failure.

Our best is still very good but our worst like yesterday and eagles is diabolical.

[layzie 34,023]

Was this always going to be a 'step backward to go forward' year? I can't say for sure whether the old game style or the new game style is the way to go but are the holes in our list and aging cattle alone enough to say that this was always going to be a pivot season? 

A year getting the red and blueprint down and a few new acquisitions who can compliment this could see us with a better shot at it in 2025.

Is this too optimistic? What are your thoughts?

Edited June 3 by layzie

[DemonJack 14 89]

Thanks guys for fronting up to do the pod after an almost decade worst performance.

I would like to get the panel’s take on where they think our list is at and if a mini rebuild is necessary ? 

I know Binman says we have almost the best list in the competition. 3 years ago I would agree with him. Like many others I think our recruiting and list management decisions have been poor since our premiership win. 

I see holes everywhere in our list at the moment. Most concerning is no reliable key forwards apart from JVR. No adequate back up for Max. Our midfield is lacking speed , skill and depth.

I think there are obvious issues with the game plan as well, but I am very concerned  our list going forward and feel we need to make some smart decisions for the future before Tassie come into the comp and get given  a lot of first round draft picks like GC and GWS. 

[Demonsone 2,045]

5 minutes ago, DemonJack 14 said:

Thanks guys for fronting up to do the pod after an almost decade worst performance.

I would like to get the panel’s take on where they think our list is at and if a mini rebuild is necessary ? 

I know Binman says we have almost the best list in the competition. 3 years ago I would agree with him. Like many others I think our recruiting and list management decisions have been poor since our premiership win. 

I see holes everywhere in our list at the moment. Most concerning is no reliable key forwards apart from JVR. No adequate back up for Max. Our midfield is lacking speed , skill and depth.

I think there are obvious issues with the game plan as well, but I am very concerned  our list going forward and feel we need to make some smart decisions for the future before Tassie come into the comp and get given  a lot of first round draft picks like GC and GWS. 

We had a back up ruck but he’s at the Swans! Won a flag with 2 rucks and seems as this strategy changed after Grundy disaster and a back up ruck in Fullerton who can’t get a game. Not sure what the strategy has been since 21 but our game plan lack of key forwards won’t see us winning any finals & that’s even if we make them. Billings, Hunt, Mccadam , Shache are not winning big games, window shut & so glad we saw one 

[Demonland 73,188]

I'm going to cut off the questions and comments here. Thank you for your input and see you tonight @ 8:30pm.

[DeeMee 877]

I can’t find the thread for tonight’s podcast so putting it here.

Please discuss the ridiculousness -

So I think I understand it now after all the diagnosis here and elsewhere. Damned if I know how we’ve stayed top 4 most of the last few years given apparently:

1. The game plan has been stuffed up through attempts to change it.

2. The game plan needs to change to keep up with other teams.

3. Our recruiters are hopeless.

4. Our high performance staff are hopeless. The players lack condition and endurance.

5. Our players don’t care nor try.

6. The culture at the club is [censored] and there are mystery off field issues causing disconnects on game day.

7. Our players have sub standard skill levels.

8. We only have a backline and mids with a non existent forward line.

9. We suffer from chasing the dollar by selling games.

10. Our coach is a dud, plays favourites and has no imagination nor the much vaunted Plan B

11. We fail to keep good players or attract good players.

12. Our management team are useless and should have given us a home base by now, therefore we play like [censored].

13. We have no depth.

14. The rest … I’m sure I missed some.

I hated Sunday night but this era is the best I’ve experienced in many, many decades of Dee supporting so I take all the above with a large grain of salt.

Go Dees

[layzie 34,023]

Think he cut it off once there was enough content. 

[Demonland 73,188]

1 hour ago, DeeMee said:

I can’t find the thread for tonight’s podcast so putting it here.

Please discuss the ridiculousness -

So I think I understand it now after all the diagnosis here and elsewhere. Damned if I know how we’ve stayed top 4 most of the last few years given apparently:

1. The game plan has been stuffed up through attempts to change it.

2. The game plan needs to change to keep up with other teams.

3. Our recruiters are hopeless.

4. Our high performance staff are hopeless. The players lack condition and endurance.

5. Our players don’t care nor try.

6. The culture at the club is [censored] and there are mystery off field issues causing disconnects on game day.

7. Our players have sub standard skill levels.

8. We only have a backline and mids with a non existent forward line.

9. We suffer from chasing the dollar by selling games.

10. Our coach is a dud, plays favourites and has no imagination nor the much vaunted Plan B

11. We fail to keep good players or attract good players.

12. Our management team are useless and should have given us a home base by now, therefore we play like [censored].

13. We have no depth.

14. The rest … I’m sure I missed some.

I hated Sunday night but this era is the best I’ve experienced in many, many decades of Dee supporting so I take all the above with a large grain of salt.

Go Dees

I have to cut the thread off at some point on the day of the podcast so that I can prepare the runsheet for the podcast. We'll most likely cover all or most of your points in the podcast tonight.

[DeeMee 877]

My points are tongue in cheek - it is not possible that all these things are true

[Demonland 73,188]

4 minutes ago, DeeMee said:

My points are tongue in cheek - it is not possible that all these things are true

Read some of the other posts in this thread. 😱

[EverDee 9]

Hello Demonlanders, love your work.

I listen every week however never generally post, however this week I feel the need to after reading many of my fellow demons post on this forum and social media. I also do have some questions on the way forward for the dees.

Firstly, I want to show my support to Goodwin and question why the view across many of our supporters is that our current issues are due to Goodwin not changing our gameplan. This is exactly the opposite of whats happening. Clearly we've changed the way we play to put more speed on the ball, attack through the middle and handball our way out of congestion. Clearly at this stage if the season it isn't working, without being a complete failure. My view is the issue is we don't have the type of players that can execute this, hence it's breaking down and against any sort of pressure. So my question for the podcast is do we persist? Or revert back to our contest best?

I feel like goody built a game plan that suited our players and at the end of the day delivered us a flag after 57 years and made us one of the toughest teams in the comp to play against. So let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. 
 

To me this may be a transition year (like it may be for the pies and lions) however with some smart recruiting and decent pre season we can still compete for the ultimate glory for a few more years yet. Let's not panic and the last thing we want to be doing is sacking our most successful coach since Norm Smith. 
 

cheers

EverDees 

[Demonland 73,188]

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Skype: Demonland31

[Swooper Northey 494]

Hi Guys, thanks for conducting this much needed group therapy session. I appreciate that we're struggling to come to grips with an evolving gameplan which was exposed for all to see in the Alice, but I've been worried about our midfield for a while. Yes, we've tried running Pickett and Neal Bullen through the middle with some success, but it also robs us of their important role as forwards. I feel that we place too greater reliance on Petracca, Oliver and Viney as genuine mids which is starting to show, particularly given Clarry's limited pre-season. With the loss of Gus we have one less class midfielder in our ranks to add to those rotations in a game that is becoming more demanding by the year. It takes me back to the debate George and Binman were having in the preseason about midfield depth and just how deep our stocks run compared to other contenders. I feel we're vulnerable.

Carlton added big bodied mids like Hewett, Kennedy and Acres to their mix in recent years to support Cripps and Walsh. Sydney recruited Jordon and Adams to help Heaney, Warner, Gulden and Co. This is the depth we're lacking.
 

Edited June 3 by Swooper Northey

[Demonland 73,188]

[Demonland 73,188]

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[layzie 34,023]

Full credit to the guys for fronting up last night, it wasn't going to be an easy shift but your efforts are appreciated.

Binman thanks for answering what would be the umpteenth question about the 'Training program'. I know your intentions get misunderstood and I know it gives you the [censored]. I've agreed with you a few times that loading is a factor so I don't deny it. I must admit I wrote this question too soon after the game ended. Pro tip: Remember to breathe before posting podcast questions after a big loss. 

I think many were eagerly awaiting your first sentence on the show this week (no pressure) and I think you got it spot on. We can bang on about old gameplans, new gameplans, personel, coaching but they are all moot points if we can't get to first base with the first fundamental of football, effort. It would be like buying a new surfboard and rocking up one time to the beach with when the surf was garbage and then wanting to go back to the old board. 

None of us know what the reason was for lack of effort and desire on the day but that was just it. Even a hamster needs to put in effort for the wheel to go round, our hamster was playing dead.

[DemonWA 3,936]

Loved the pod as usual. 

#trigger warning for @binman but staggered to hear him cite the Buckley clip as almost a smoking gun Re loading implications though. 

To me the Buckley quote was around a view that the players were not afl standard body shape/skinfolds. A fairly damning view and a completely different aspersion (and far more critical) to an observation that would lead to the view that the players were hyper fatigued from a loading block. 

Body shape and fitness are (to me) things that are worked on predominantly during the preseason.  Loading/tapering is about refining for optimal performance, not loosing significant Skinfolds or getting upto an afl standard fitness base imo. 

Looking forward to the victory pod next week

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

Appreciate the weekly effort in doing the podcast.

I know we won't always agree on every single detail but it's always good to hear different perspectives.

@binman I wanted to mention something, regarding the part where you mentioned all the people who are overly critical, sometimes even harsh on the players and coaches. I think it would be more worrisome if the response here on Demonland was apathy, not a single care in the world. That's when you have lost the hearts of the supporters.

We all hurt after something like last Sunday's performance, we hurt because we care. We care because we love the team. We may not be perfect supporters, but we'll always be there.

Go the Mighty Dees! 🔴🔵🔥🔥

[binman 43,835]

2 hours ago, DemonWA said:

Loved the pod as usual. 

#trigger warning for @binman but staggered to hear him cite the Buckley clip as almost a smoking gun Re loading implications though. 

To me the Buckley quote was around a view that the players were not afl standard body shape/skinfolds. A fairly damning view and a completely different aspersion (and far more critical) to an observation that would lead to the view that the players were hyper fatigued from a loading block. 

Body shape and fitness are (to me) things that are worked on predominantly during the preseason.  Loading/tapering is about refining for optimal performance, not loosing significant Skinfolds or getting upto an afl standard fitness base imo. 

Looking forward to the victory pod next week

Perhaps I was unclear.

I wasn't citing Buckley's comments as evidence of being hyper fatigued from a loading block.

I was agreeing with him that we are not at optimal fitness.

Which is why I cited it as a possible explanation for our week to week, inconsistency and inability to play 4 good quarters.

Perhaps that lack of fitness was exacerbated by a heavier training block, but I doubt it. More likely just the normal accumulative fatigue all teams are impacted by at the half way mark of the season, particularly those clubs, like us, with a ot of young regular best 22 players.

I wonder whether it is partly by design ie plan to develop their fitness as the season goes on with the goal of minimising the impacts of training so hard for 6 months that perhaps makes it too hard to be in peak shape in September 

And there is no doubt the impact of having mutiple players in the team off interrupted preseasons who still clearly are not fully fit yet is having an impact- but are choosing to play them anyway (which intersects with the philosophy I'm wondering about above).

As George noted, quoting Libby birch in the age article about the spate of injuries and demands of the game, and length of season, clubs are having to change their high performance programs and are training hard in multiple blocks. 

For example the pies were def not in optimal shape for the first 5 weeks or so, as evidenced by their method and results, and there was a suggestion that was by design.

And that staggered approach might help explain why the cats and giants can look like world beaters for the first 7 weeks of the season then lose 4 and 3 games in a row respectively and look mid table teams.

Or help explain why the dogs suddenly look so much more dynamic 

That's the glass half full take.

The other possibility of course is that they have got the program wrong and/or the players have not done the work.

If the latter is the case we are toast. 

Either way, as I noted on the pod the Selwyn and the high performance team deserve scrutiny - scrutiny they are not getting much of on demonland. 

I'm of the view that the high performance manager is almost as important, perhaps even more important, than the coach in terms of a team's chances of winning a flag.

And should be critiqued accordingly.

Edited June 4 by binman