POSTGAME: Rd 07 vs Richmond

[leave it to deever 17,511]

33 minutes ago, SPC said:

One thing I’m sick of hearing is about undermanned Tigers. We are also missing from our end of year list, Brayshaw, Smith (both done i Know) Bowey, Salem. All best 22 last year. We are also a little light on, considering 3 or possibly 4 of those are defenders. 

Interesting though that our backline is still one of the strongest around despite those outs you mentioned. It's our lack of depth on the middle and forward.....I would drop Sparrow but there is nobody to replace him with. I'd drop Jvr and Petty but again....

 

[binman 42,888]

49 minutes ago, SPC said:

One thing I’m sick of hearing is about undermanned Tigers. We are also missing from our end of year list, Brayshaw, Smith (both done i Know) Bowey, Salem. All best 22 last year. We are also a little light on, considering 3 or possibly 4 of those are defenders. 

And you can add melksham and Hunter too.

And whilst McAdam wasn't with us last season, he is def possible best 22 this year.

[binman 42,888]

1 hour ago, Bimbo said:

Have read through about half post game thread and it is a pleasure not to see any critisism of the umpires.

 

 

It is just possible there may be some comment on the Richmond fan forums.

24-12 our way helps to chill the criticism of the umps I reckon.

Long may it reign.

[Adam The God 30,218]

4 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

Some nice cameos from some of the younger, less experienced players, a rollicking performance from Ed Langdon and a real injection of speed and sure ball handling from Pickett made the second half a pleasure to watch.

I missed this, but my sister noted that Billings often started on the wing and Langdon played significant minutes as a half forward. I think it was a great move, obviously they rotated a bit between half forward and wing, but it really enabled Lingers to get into the game.

Aside from some of his ball use, I think Billings was decent too. If he's getting the footy 15-20 times a game, we'd usually be happy.

They both played back of stoppage clog up space roles too and along with Windsor and ANB are vital to the stigyness of our defence. 

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

12 hours ago, layzie said:

So many Richmond marks in our 50 too. We couldn't get it to hit the desk to save ourselves.

Our forwards 'almost refused' to penetrate the spaces they should have - overall laziness and poor coordination. There is no profitable gain in statically waiting for the 'perfect' incoming bomb. 

[Hopeful Demon 1,517]

The most pleasing thing about this season so far is the form of Gawn and May. I thought they were both on the decline last year but they're playing as well as they did three years ago.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

43 minutes ago, binman said:

case, yes our kicking was woeful in rhe first half but as ive noted we piled on 10 goals in the second half (to their

You didn't mention our handballs which for me were at least just as bad. Players handballed like the pill like it was ticking inside. Honestly looked like many didn't want it or take responsibility with it.

So many handballs just went up in the air and were intercepted or when they did find a player it was usually one in a more precarious position. Often done by a seasoned player too. There were too many instances at times when a player wasn't really looking in the right direction as the he attempted handball.

Yes we are struggling to find a working forward line once again. How Fritta, Petty and Jvr got away with laying a total of 3 tackles between them v the lions. The shining star of last night at least was Turner.

But our midfield is the most pressing issue at the min. It's been flat now for two weeks. Prior to that it was struggling to win clearances. And all of Maxy's great tap work was sharked by the opposition.

Excluding Oliver who has had genuine injuries,( I thought he was ok), Viney wasn't sighted, Tracca only had a couple of cameos and Sparrow was or is rather the proverbial bridesmaid.

Ultimately the sloppiness seemed contagious and begs the question of why. This is a team that just bagged two scalps in Adelaide 

Although the celebrations of those two wins was perhaps a tad too strong because we have clearly lost sight of the big picture since. 

But again there were over a dozen comprehensive flag 21 players on the track last night so it begs the question 

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED.

Im putting this out to all the seasoned and genuine knowledgeable posters of the game because I'm seriously baffled.

And with all due respect please don't say we doubled their score because we were terrible. 

Many of our errant kicks were from no pressure acts by the opposition. Those couple of just poor out of bounds on the full and direct kicks to opposite players standing by their lonesome are evidence of a sub par performance.

A good thing Richmond are just shot. How can we confidently face the cats next week?

Sorry to dump this on you Binners.

But I just want an attempted no nonsense fair critique. I think it's very naive not to be concerned after that in terms of us getting to a top four spot.

To quote a line from that iconic Oz movie .." Tell em their dreaming."

Maybe I should change my moniker to don't make me angrier.

Cheers.

 

 

 

[binman 42,888]

32 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 

That is just so brilliant.

And is the sort of analysis that coverage of hamwsso desperately needs. It would be so easy to introduce too.

White notes the space viney creates and holds. One thing I noticed about tracc getting tagged by kickett is at centre square stoppages he took kickett away from the drop of the ball. That space often allowed koz to get involved and helped with clean exits.

Which is the sort of thing goody  us referecing when he talks about how we take advantage of a tag on clarry, tracc or Oliver.

[Adam The God 30,218]

4 hours ago, samcantstandya said:

Windsor had 6 kicks but a couple of times he kicked straight to a Tiger which lost us momentum

Yeah, he made errors. It'll happen. It was also easily the biggest crowd and occasion he's played in front of.

He'll be better for the experience. And when the time came to kick a crucial goal he did.

[binman 42,888]

20 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

You didn't mention our handballs which for me were at least just as bad. Players handballed like the pill like it was ticking inside. Honestly looked like many didn't want it or take responsibility with it.

So many handballs just went up in the air and were intercepted or when they did find a player it was usually one in a more precarious position. Often done by a seasoned player too. There were too many instances at times when a player wasn't really looking in the right direction as the he attempted handball.

Yes we are struggling to find a working forward line once again. How Fritta, Petty and Jvr got away with laying a total of 3 tackles between them v the lions. The shining star of last night at least was Turner.

But our midfield is the most pressing issue at the min. It's been flat now for two weeks. Prior to that it was struggling to win clearances. And all of Maxy's great tap work was sharked by the opposition.

Excluding Oliver who has had genuine injuries,( I thought he was ok), Viney wasn't sighted, Tracca only had a couple of cameos and Sparrow was or is rather the proverbial bridesmaid.

Ultimately the sloppiness seemed contagious and begs the question of why. This is a team that just bagged two scalps in Adelaide 

Although the celebrations of those two wins was perhaps a tad too strong because we have clearly lost sight of the big picture since. 

But again there were over a dozen comprehensive flag 21 players on the track last night so it begs the question 

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED.

Im putting this out to all the seasoned and genuine knowledgeable posters of the game because I'm seriously baffled.

And with all due respect please don't say we doubled their score because we were terrible. 

Many of our errant kicks were from no pressure acts by the opposition. Those couple of just poor out of bounds on the full and direct kicks to opposite players standing by their lonesome are evidence of a sub par performance.

A good thing Richmond are just shot. How can we confidently face the cats next week?

Sorry to dump this on you Binners.

But I just want an attempted no nonsense fair critique. I think it's very naive not to be concerned after that in terms of us getting to a top four spot.

To quote a line from that iconic Oz movie .." Tell em their dreaming."

Maybe I should change my moniker to don't make me angrier.

Cheers.

 

 

 

Lots to unpack there.

So ill pick just one element - your critisism of the midfield.

As goody noted in his post match presser, it's not the number of clearances, it's the quality of clearances.

And as he also referenced, we set up at stoppages one player down, making it less likely we will win any given around the ground stoppage.

But when we do win a stoppage no team, with the possible exception of the blues, is better at turning that stoppage win into a score.

And no team is better at stopping an opponent score from a stoppage when they win it, in large part because we use the spare we create because we bring one (sometimes more) less to the stoppages behind the ball. 

In other words, it doesn't matter so much how many clearances we win or lose. It matters how much more, or less, we score from them.

Quality not quantity - as defined by scoreboard impact.

The lions game is an outlier. Smashed in total clearances and scores from stoppages 

But otherwise we are consistently outscoring teams from stoppages, often by very big margins.

Here's our raw clearance totals from last night:

Centre Clearances	8	10	-2
Stoppage Clearances	24	15	+9

And here is our score from stoppages:

Centre Bounce	1.1.7	0.1.1	+6
Stoppage (Other)	3.1.19	0.2.2	+17

So plus 23 points from stoppages. 

Impressive by my measure.

And a huge factor in the end result.

I'd also add that a key part of our midfield, maxy, who came up against two rucks, won the award for BOG.

In what world does that equate to our midfield struggling?

Edited April 25 by binman

[Adam The God 30,218]

3 hours ago, rpfc said:

Oh right, yeah, I hate it when young players play their roles really well and we win…

What effing planet am I on? We are 5 and 2 and just doubled a teams score while possibly unearthing a possible medium tall option that could answer a few questions in the short, medium and long term.

And we are obviously struggling to get our new gameplan focussed on back half turnover and quick movement from there because Salem and Bowey are missing and it can expose Lever, May, TMac more than we would like. 

I am glad we are persisting and not succumbing to what ‘better suits’ our defensive stars because it will benefit us in the long term, even if we drop a few games getting there.

Very good point and probably something I've overlooked. 

[DemonOX 8,791]

12 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Carlton beat practically the same side by 5 points and despite only losing one game by less than a kick still have a worse percentage than us.

We can’t expect to have that many turnovers and beat the better sides. 
 

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

28 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Our forwards 'almost refused' to penetrate the spaces they should have - overall laziness and poor coordination. There is no profitable gain in statically waiting for the 'perfect' incoming bomb. 

I’m going the opposite on this. Our forwards worked extremely hard, created space and separation. Problem was we didn’t make the right decisions with the ball in the first half. 

[Adam The God 30,218]

3 hours ago, Maldonboy38 said:

I fully agree about getting games into them, and the club is doing it at the right time. Windsor is a lock, and I was glad to see Turner back in.

Howes, Laurie and Woewodin are good, and long term I can see Woewodin being at the club for a good long career. I can see the other two leaving for more game time with another club - like Jordon. However, at the current stage of their development they can show lack of awareness, iffy decision making, and all three are quite slow. I hope Bowey & Salem recover soon. If we go into the Carlton or Cats game with the same 5 young players, these weaknesses will be exploited. I am VERY happy to be proven wrong.

Completely disagree on Howes mate, but each to their own. 

[layzie 33,793]

Burn, baby burn, DISCO INFERNO!

[whatwhat say what 22,737]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

 

can't wait for all three of jeff's kids being at the dees

[layzie 33,793]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

 

Get him on the podcast. 

[Bang Bang Bang 5,824]

1 hour ago, Hopeful Demon said:

The most pleasing thing about this season so far is the form of Gawn and May. I thought they were both on the decline last year but they're playing as well as they did three years ago.

I don't think Gawn was declining last year, it was moreso the silly decision to get Brodie Grundy that limited his ability to influence games. After we abolished the combo mid-season he still nearly did enough for AA guernsey #6. He's a freak. 

Both of them still being elite at age 32 is a big win though, I agree. 

[DeelightfulPlay 2,544]

2 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

Interesting though that our backline is still one of the strongest around despite those outs you mentioned. It's our lack of depth on the middle and forward.....I would drop Sparrow but there is nobody to replace him with. I'd drop Jvr and Petty but again....

 

But the outs mentioned don't quite go to our backline traditionally.  Gus last year was spending more time through the middle, so his retirement effects both mids and backs.  But then our solution this season was to have Salem play more through the middle, enabled by Bowey taking on the crisp, accurate kicking role from the back.  So Salem and Bowey out leaves holes in the midfield for us again, even if we are able to supplement their other roles up back.  TMac and Howes have both had lots of exposure to our defence system so it makes sense they've been able to slot in nicely (even if disposal isn't a strong suit).

Separately Smith was finally coming good as a forward last season (and was likely seen as too unpredictable to be anything more than a back up defender given he wasn't used to our defensive system up back), so he's not really missing for our backline.  If anything, Smith was a bit of a Melksham replacement (and we missed Melk's banana goals last night!)

1 hour ago, binman said:

And you can add melksham and Hunter too.

And whilst McAdam wasn't with us last season, he is def possible best 22 this year.

Windsor seems to have done a good job so far picking up Hunter's role, will be interesting to watch the battle for this spot as the season continues

[Brownie 5,980]

50 minutes ago, layzie said:

Get him on the podcast. 

Get him on TV too. Jeff's analysis there was better than most stuff I've seen on fox in the last 12months.

[Adam The God 30,218]

3 hours ago, Doug Reemer said:

If we let Carlton waltz it out of the middle to Curnow and McKay it won’t be 23-24 at half time.

It’ll be 23-76

We also couldn’t hit the side of a barn when we did turn it over last night, can’t blame fatigue like against the lions.

When did we let them waltz it out of the middle? They had maybe 1 or 2 put the front clearances the whole night and so did we...

[Kent 2,909]

5 hours ago, Dee Viney Intervention said:

In my lifetime I have never been so meh about a 43 point win. I guess it is a good thing because for most of my Melbourne supporting life we have been poor. I don’t want to be the supporter that is just satisfied, I want more. I don’t want mediocre I want great.
 Defensively outstanding as a unit and occasional howlers aside individually Lever, May, McDonald were good and I thought Rivers was outstanding.

We started to win clearance in the middle in the 3rd 1/4. As we should though. We have a generational ruckman and AA midfielders we should be winning the clearance battle more often than not. 
 

But I am losing faith in our structure forward of the ball. Until it is sorted out we are not troubling the best teams in the competition. After years of this relatively stable coaching group we still do not know what our best forward line looks like. But more importantly for me is the structure. Our forwards all push so high up the ground eg Fritsch taking marks at Centre Half Back and the Back Pocket. He is a crafty forward one on one that is also our best shot for goal. We win the ball thru turnover and we can’t go quick because we literally have nobody to give it to so we have the go slow,chip, chip, chip it around. 
 Why can’t we structurally have two talls and a small stay in our front half to give us a quick release target and beat congestion in our forward line and give ourselves the best and highest percentage chance to score with clean looks on goal. 
 There is zero urgency in the offensive side of our game. We switch the ball and there is no urgency to spread and work to the fat side of the ground or spread for a quick transition into our forward line which should be relatively open. Yet the work their arses off to set up defensively the second we are not in possession.
 Our commitment and work rate to defend is absolutely outstanding.and I cannot be more effusive in our praise there.I had hoped with Mcqualter coming in that we would see a change in ball movement and a more connected attacking game plan. 
 That first half last night was garbage littered with skill errors and I believe that it is because we overuse the ball and I think it is the way we are set up that forces the overuse because of the congestion we create structurally. 
 It has been the same issue for years connection and forwardline. This group has had more than enough time to sort it out, they haven’t and I am started to get a bit over it. Can this coaching group please put some value on the offensive side of our game because until we do we are just making up the numbers. Our brand or gamestyle is not enjoyable to watch but the most important question is our brand or gamestyle enjoyable to play. If you were a forward at Melbourne I would say no.

Nice that we got the win against a bog ordinary Richmond side but Meh. 

 

Agree completely

 

Goodwin doesn't have a properly structured offensive nature

We have overcommitted to a poor plan been the same for years if I were midfield or forward I would be disheartened having to play this forward system

We cause the congestion!!!

[demon3165 2,717]

2 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Our forwards 'almost refused' to penetrate the spaces they should have - overall laziness and poor coordination. There is no profitable gain in statically waiting for the 'perfect' incoming bomb. 

That's the game plan they play with...

[Adam The God 30,218]

1 hour ago, DemonOX said:

We can’t expect to have that many turnovers and beat the better sides. 

Each game is different. It depends what our pressure is like on the opposition. If they're turning it over as much, then you can't read into a specific stat too much.

[demon3165 2,717]

25 minutes ago, DeelightfulPlay said:

But the outs mentioned don't quite go to our backline traditionally.  Gus last year was spending more time through the middle, so his retirement effects both mids and backs.  But then our solution this season was to have Salem play more through the middle, enabled by Bowey taking on the crisp, accurate kicking role from the back.  So Salem and Bowey out leaves holes in the midfield for us again, even if we are able to supplement their other roles up back.  TMac and Howes have both had lots of exposure to our defence system so it makes sense they've been able to slot in nicely (even if disposal isn't a strong suit).

Separately Smith was finally coming good as a forward last season (and was likely seen as too unpredictable to be anything more than a back up defender given he wasn't used to our defensive system up back), so he's not really missing for our backline.  If anything, Smith was a bit of a Melksham replacement (and we missed Melk's banana goals last night!)

Windsor seems to have done a good job so far picking up Hunter's role, will be interesting to watch the battle for this spot as the season continues

Salem doesn't have the tank to be s full-time midfielder or the speed to play that role.