POSTGAME: Rd 15 vs Geelong

[binman 43,757]

54 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

this loading myth which was put to bed the moment we lost our first final..

Sorry, dazzler, that is just absolute rubbish - as I have already noted at length in response to a similar comment from you a couple of weeks back.

The cats, having run out of gas come the pointy end of the season for about a decade, and knowing they had to change something, won the flag copying our program for pete's sake.

And please, do me a favor and stop this bulltish about excuses.

No one is making any excuses. No one. 

Not a single person would disagree with the fact that playing that game at Kardinia Park was a FACTOR in our loss.

But that's apparently OK to say.

But it so triggering to some to suggest fatigue from loading was a factor.

I mean, how else to explain how the Cats, who post bye last week ran out of gas completely in the last q against Port, could out run the team with the best 4th quarter record in the AFL.

Or how our pressure rating could drop from a crazy high 214 in the third to 163 in the last quarter (by way of contrast the cats, second game post bye, had a rating of 197 in the 3rd, but had enough in the tank to increase it to 204 in the last).

Sheesh.

Edited June 25, 2023 by binman

[Roost it far 8,581]

34 minutes ago, binman said:

Very similar to the vaxers v anti vaxers.

FWIW I'm on the vaxers side.

Let’s not go there.

[Watson11 2,241]

19 minutes ago, binman said:

Sorry, dazzler, that is just absolute rubbish - as I have already noted at length in response to a similar comment from you a couple of weeks back.

The cats, having run out of gas come the pointy end of the season for about a decade, and knowing they had to change something, won the flag copying our program for pete's sake.

And please, do me a favor and stop this bulltish about excuses.

No one is making any excuses. No one. 

Not a single person would disagree with the fact that playing that game at Kardinia Park was a FACTOR in our loss.

But that's apparently OK to say.

But it so triggering to some to suggest fatigue from loading was a factor. 

Sheesh.

I may have missed where you addressed the topic, but I’m pretty sure that Isaac Smith spoke about the cats loading program and they had a staggered loading program with different groups loading at different times.  They didn’t lose a game after round 9 (14 May), so managed to go undefeated through the loading period. Maybe we need to copy what they did, not what we did in 2021.

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

Just now, binman said:

Sorry, dazzker, that is just absolute rubbish. As I have already posted at length in response to a previous similar to comment from you.

The cats, having run out of gas come the pointy end of the season for about a decade,and knowing they had to change something, won the flag copying our program for petes sake.

If you think there isn't far more pressing concerns other then your 'loading' fantasy then you're delusional once again. Bit like last year.

The fact that you genuinely think that the cats the just clicked their fingers and realised that all those years it was all just due to loading is a [censored] take from your end. You don't even have the facts to even back this up. Cats have been loading year after year.

The fact is, the cats had a complete revamped of their whole footballer department at the end of 2021 after the loss in the preliminary and had a mini review at the end of the season.

Scott completely changed his whole coaching structure and brought in new Intel into the group which meant they had a complete revamp of their game plan.

They played a far more attacking style that was a complete opposite to what Scott had ran with previous years of the chip, slow and controlled ball movement.

Not only that, they rested players in the 2nd half of the year which had them absolutely cherry ripe for September. They had the luxury of doing as they played some lower end teams. Complete opposite to what we did last year when we sent Gawn and Lever up to Perth against West Coast with back and ankle issues when the opportunity was there to rest them.

So as I am pointing out, Geelong identified far bigger concerns that was holding them back instead of pin pointing loading as their main key target. I mean thanks for the laugh though.

In terms of more pressing concerns then 'loading'.

• Forward connection is one. Forwards starting behind defenders and not willing to lead at the ball carrier. We struggled to connect in the first quarter. This has zero to do with 'loading'. We're still fresh even in the first quarter. No player ever goes into a game feeling gassed from a main training session especially when recover now days is at an all time premium. Nothing to do with loading.

• Botched team selections. Playing a completely underdone Petty off 6 weeks with zero match condition over an in form and fit Tomlinson. Not only that, he started down back after Goodwin promised that he'd be spending most of the year up forward. Spargo as a sub was just bizarre. James Jordon who has zero influence over the game ahead of Jake Bowey who would have added cleanness and speed off half back. Again, nothing to do with loading.

• Form concerns of certain players. Pickett, Langdon, Gawn, Spargo, Chandler, ANB, May are all in a form slump and need to find ways to get themselves out of it because it's costing us. They all seem bereft of confidence and are simply struggling. When I see Kozzie picky try and toe poke a ball forward instead of bending down and picking up the footy then it's got absolutely nothing to do with loading, but more so on confidence.

• Game plan. We've reverted back to the slow ball movement style which simply gets picked apart, eerily similar to last year as well. I remember watching the Doggies and Sydney and thinking that this will be the game plan that'll win us the flag this year. We played a fast attacking brand that caught teams off side with the way we were able to sling shot off half back generate scoring pressure so quickly. It's why we were at one stage the highest scoring team in the competition. Nothing to do with loading, it's the tinkering of game plan that is evident.

 

[bobby1554 1,261]

11 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

If you think there isn't far more pressing concerns other then your 'loading' fantasy then you're delusional once again. Bit like last year.

The fact that you genuinely think that the cats the just clicked their fingers and realised that all those years it was all just due to loading is a [censored] take from your end. You don't even have the facts to even back this up. Cats have been loading year after year.

The fact is, the cats had a complete revamped of their whole footballer department at the end of 2021 after the loss in the preliminary and had a mini review at the end of the season.

Scott completely changed his whole coaching structure and brought in new Intel into the group which meant they had a complete revamp of their game plan.

They played a far more attacking style that was a complete opposite to what Scott had ran with previous years of the chip, slow and controlled ball movement.

Not only that, they rested players in the 2nd half of the year which had them absolutely cherry ripe for September. They had the luxury of doing as they played some lower end teams. Complete opposite to what we did last year when we sent Gawn and Lever up to Perth against West Coast with back and ankle issues when the opportunity was there to rest them.

So as I am pointing out, Geelong identified far bigger concerns that was holding them back instead of pin pointing loading as their main key target. I mean thanks for the laugh though.

In terms of more pressing concerns then 'loading'.

• Forward connection is one. Forwards starting behind defenders and not willing to lead at the ball carrier. We struggled to connect in the first quarter. This has zero to do with 'loading'. We're still fresh even in the first quarter. No player ever goes into a game feeling gassed from a main training session especially when recover now days is at an all time premium. Nothing to do with loading.

• Botched team selections. Playing a completely underdone Petty off 6 weeks with zero match condition over an in form and fit Tomlinson. Not only that, he started down back after Goodwin promised that he'd be spending most of the year up forward. Spargo as a sub was just bizarre. James Jordon who has zero influence over the game ahead of Jake Bowey who would have added cleanness and speed off half back. Again, nothing to do with loading.

• Form concerns of certain players. Pickett, Langdon, Gawn, Spargo, Chandler, ANB, May are all in a form slump and need to find ways to get themselves out of it because it's costing us. They all seem bereft of confidence and are simply struggling. When I see Kozzie picky try and toe poke a ball forward instead of bending down and picking up the footy then it's got absolutely nothing to do with loading, but more so on confidence.

• Game plan. We've reverted back to the slow ball movement style which simply gets picked apart, eerily similar to last year as well. I remember watching the Doggies and Sydney and thinking that this will be the game plan that'll win us the flag this year. We played a fast attacking brand that caught teams off side with the way we were able to sling shot off half back generate scoring pressure so quickly. It's why we were at one stage the highest scoring team in the competition. Nothing to do with loading, it's the tinkering of game plan that is evident.

 

Absolutely nailed it. Best response I have read on DL ever.

[binman 43,757]

Dazzler, i haven't been true to my word as stayed out of the loading discussion this year. I'm trying though. Why?

Because of posts like the one above.

To be perfectly honest, i find comments like 'If you think there isn't far more pressing concerns other then your 'loading' fantasy then you're delusional once again. Bit like last year' flat out insulting (as i assume most would).

But leaving aside the puerile insults (which by in large i think you would agree i don't stoop to), i'm thoroughly over having my words and opinions on this topic being completely misrepresented.

There a million such examples in the last 3 seasons when this discussion comes up - the making excuses and some promise to win the flag  being the two most common variants. But this is yet another example (i mean who would think this, for all the reasons you point out - how stupid do yo think i am?) :  

• The fact that you genuinely think that the cats the just clicked their fingers and realised that all those years it was all just due to loading is a [censored] take from your end.

What really frustrates me is that i am hesitant to make a point, or post, about the impact of faitgue from loading, and hope to have some sort of nuanced discussion about it, for fear of being ridiculed and howled down by posters for whom the tipic seems to trigger some sort of irrational angst. 

But that's where we are. 

 

 

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

55 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Same, RiF. Mainly because the ppl who support the loading theory have valid arguments and can back them up. Also, they take emotion out of the conversation, unlike the unbelievers, if you will, who are usually fired up (in particular after a loss) and rather than put forth a legitimate case, they’ll waste time trying to make the believers answer dumb questions like, “we lost, how’s your loading theory working now?!” Totally unproductive, adds nothing to the debate whatsoever. 

I'm sorry, back them up with what exactly? 

If you're believer by the looks of it then what's your take on it? Intrigued to hear your personal opinion you have on it as you are a regular training attendee.

Because I would like to think you're simply not just jumping on the back of others purely because your dislike for myself has a different narrative that doesn't wear rosy red and blue glasses like you'd all like us to be and just calls it as he sees it....

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

1 minute ago, binman said:

Dazzler, i haven't been true to my word as stayed out of the loading discussion this year. I'm trying though. Why?

Because of posts like the one above.

To be perfectly honest, i find comments like 'If you think there isn't far more pressing concerns other then your 'loading' fantasy then you're delusional once again. Bit like last year' flat out insulting (as i assume most would).

But leaving aside the puerile insults (which by in large i think you would agree i don't stoop to), i'm thoroughly over having my words and opinions on this topic being completely misrepresented.

There a million such examples in the last 3 seasons when this discussion comes up - the making excuses and some promise to win the flag  being the two most common variants. But this is yet another example (i mean who would think this, for all the reasons you point out - how stupid do yo think i am?) :  

• The fact that you genuinely think that the cats the just clicked their fingers and realised that all those years it was all just due to loading is a [censored] take from your end.

What really frustrates me is that i am hesitant to make a point, or post, about the impact of faitgue from loading, and hope to have some sort of nuanced discussion about it, for fear of being ridiculed and howled down by posters for whom the tipic seems to trigger some sort of irrational angst. 

But that's where we are. 

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, binman said:

Sorry, dazzler, that is just absolute rubbish - 

 

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

And yes, @binman my bad on the personal jibe at you. 

My apologies. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

2 hours ago, binman said:

All excellent points AF.

I'd add one more (and then stay out of it, i mean who can be bothered - if someone is not convinced by the mountain of evidence by now - teams losing after the bye being just one more - then their minds are made up).

Our fitness fell away late in the 2022 season. Some argue that is evidence against the fact we did a mid season heavy block of training  (which frankly is just assinine).

Well, the obvious counter is that whilst it did not work for us - it DID work for the cats, who openly said they copied our approach (and acknowledged that a factor in their perennial failure to win a flag despite finishing top 4 in mutiple seasons was running our of gas late in the season)

The cats ran out the season as powerfully as we did in 2021, and like us had a clear fitness edge over all other teams (bar perhaps the pies). It was a massive factor in their dominant run from aprox this point in the 2022 season.

Having adopted our mid season heavy block of training, the Cats won the flag.

So, the last two flags, at least, have been won by teams who have done a mid season heavy block of training.

No doubt it is industry standard now. 

Not that you'd know that listening to media people scratch their heads trying to explain how freo, coming off a bye and clearly fatigued, could be so, so poor against the giants.

And play so well the very next, beating a top 8 team convincingly, looking a completely different side, and magical running over the ground and looking fresh.

Same deal for the suns, who fell in a heap last week, and were out of gas and look a completely different team today (against the hawks, who out ran and smashed the post bye lions just a couple of weeks back).

Or even amusingly, how they will explain why so far, if the suns go on to win their game against the hawks, the only two teams who have won after the bye have played a team also coming off a bye (saints and pies). 

So the fact that the Pies were allowed a full bye and allowed to play against another team coming off the bye (one they have already played this year mins you) is an absolute joke. 

[layzie 33,991]

I think there is good evidence for the loading theory and it is playing a part. That drop off in pressure rating in the 4th quarter is just too dramatic to ignore and it wasn't like we were in possession for most of it either. The guys were gassed and maybe the wet weather was a multiplier effect, I don't know.

What frustrates me is when we can't discuss the issues of our game without that coming up. I must stress that  Binman is not one of these people nor has he promised success out of it. If you listen to the pod he's not even bringing it up much this year unless asked. However there are people that took this way too far and they would go to the length of making you look stupid for not believing it. In the Swans game in the middle of the year last year when Max missed that relatively close shot at goal to put us up about 9 points late you couldn't even question why we weren't able to execute fundamental kicks like that without being basically told "It's loading mate, are you stupid or something?".

I think it exists, I think it's a factor and you only have to look at the game today to see how gassed both teams were today but I'm not going to take part in a [censored] for tat argument about it as it's not the only thing to worry about.

To be honest I'm more frustrated with the people who claimed Petty simply had to come in because he was better. A few of those people have disappeared into vapour.

Edited June 25, 2023 by layzie

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

15 minutes ago, layzie said:

I think there is good evidence for the loading theory and it is playing a part. That drop off in pressure rating in the 4th quarter is just too dramatic to ignore and it wasn't like we were in possession for most of it either. The guys were gassed and maybe the wet weather was a multiplier effect, I don't know.

What frustrates me is when we can't discuss the issues of our game without that coming up. I must stress that  Binman is not one of these people nor has he promised success out of it. If you listen to the pod he's not even bringing it up much this year unless asked. However there are people that took this way too far and they would go to the length of making you look stupid for not believing it. In the Swans game in the middle of the year last year when Max missed that relatively close shot at goal to put us up about 9 points late you couldn't even question why we weren't able to execute fundamental kicks like that without being basically told "It's loading mate, are you stupid or something?".

I think it exists, I think it's a factor and you only have to look at the game today to see how gassed both teams were today but I'm not going to take part in a [censored] for tat argument about it as it's not the only thing to worry about.

To be honest I'm more frustrated with the people who claimed Petty simply had to come in because he was better. A few of those people have disappeared into vapour.

Whilst our 4th quarter against Geelong was unacceptable, I could also mount an argument that our 4th quarter against Collingwood we had the chance to blow them away early. We missed 5 shots on goal in a row which would have iced the game. We were running well over on top of them.

We let them in the game purely because we missed gettable set shot goals in front. I mean, we kicked 2.7 in the last means we had 9 scoring shorts. Turn that the other way around and we're pumping Collingwood close to 40 points.

Even against Carlton and Freo we still won the last quarter and again, had opportunities to extend the lead further but wasted our opportunities in front of goal.

Go back to Port Adelaide and no coincidence that they outscored us in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions similar to Geelong.

See where I'm getting..?

Edited June 25, 2023 by dazzledavey36

[Jaded No More 68,973]

Why can’t we have issues AND loading be ONE of those issues?

Will we improve once we taper off? Probably. Will we become a flawless team? Absolutely not. 

There are many issues going on with the side at the moment. Some easier to solve than others. Some that can be explained by a heavier block of loading, and some that cannot. 

Our limp performance against Freo and the last quarter against Geelong/Pies are maybe a loading issue. Our lack of reliable contested marking forward target, is not. 
Poor skill execution is maybe a loading fatigue issue. Overusing the footy by hand in heavy rain is not, it’s just dumb football. 

Can we still win the flag this year? Absolutely. This is a season of ordinary top sides and equally competitive middle of the road sides. If you make the 8 you can probably win it if you get some good luck. 
Do we need to improve our ball use/goal kicking/forward connection and settle on a winning structure in order to win it? Absolutely. 

[Mel Bourne 4,534]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

…..When I see Kozzie try and toe poke a ball forward instead of bending down and picking up the footy then it's got absolutely nothing to do with loading, but more so on confidence.

 

 

Aside from everything else being said (I have no opinion on loading, except to say that it would be quite a blessing to actually get a player/coaching staff tell us what exactly is happening in this regard), this aspect of Kozzie’s game really does my head in, sometimes. 
 

I get that wet-weather footy tends to ask players to keep on their feet, so I was willing to let it slide last game, but it’s a general technique he employs in most matches. You’ll see it work for him on occasion, which probably keeps enough heat from the coaching staff at bay, but I get really frustrated watching Koz stick his feet into the packs hoping to pluck out miracles when four out of five times he should be getting his hands dirty. 

[Demon17 5,202]

3 hours ago, binman said:

Sorry, dazzler, that is just absolute rubbish - as I have already noted at length in response to a similar comment from you a couple of weeks back.

The cats, having run out of gas come the pointy end of the season for about a decade, and knowing they had to change something, won the flag copying our program for pete's sake.

And please, do me a favor and stop this bulltish about excuses.

No one is making any excuses. No one. 

Not a single person would disagree with the fact that playing that game at Kardinia Park was a FACTOR in our loss.

But that's apparently OK to say.

But it so triggering to some to suggest fatigue from loading was a factor.

I mean, how else to explain how the Cats, who post bye last week ran out of gas completely in the last q against Port, could out run the team with the best 4th quarter record in the AFL.

Or how our pressure rating could drop from a crazy high 214 in the third to 163 in the last quarter (by way of contrast the cats, second game post bye, had a rating of 197 in the 3rd, but had enough in the tank to increase it to 204 in the last).

Sheesh.

Well put argument, supported by Facts.  Thanks. I wasn't aware of those numbers.

[The heart beats true 18,145]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Whilst our 4th quarter against Geelong was unacceptable, I could also mount an argument that our 4th quarter against Collingwood we had the chance to blow them away early. We missed 5 shots on goal in a row which would have iced the game. We were running well over on top of them.

We let them in the game purely because we missed gettable set shot goals in front. I mean, we kicked 2.7 in the last means we had 9 scoring shorts. Turn that the other way around and we're pumping Collingwood close to 40 points.

Even against Carlton and Freo we still won the last quarter and again, had opportunities to extend the lead further but wasted our opportunities in front of goal.

Go back to Port Adelaide and no coincidence that they outscored us in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions similar to Geelong.

See where I'm getting..?

I think I see what you are getting at…

That we are heavily fatigued from a large block of training and our efficiency by foot drops off as games go on, resulting in poorer shots at goal? Right?

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

2 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

I think I see what you are getting at…

That we are heavily fatigued from a large block of training and our efficiency by foot drops off as games go on, resulting in poorer shots at goal? Right?

What's Geelongs excuse for kicking 6.2 in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions?

Collingwood kicked 5.2 in the last quarter and ran out winners.

They're loading in a heavy block of training too??

[layzie 33,991]

Loading is a common thing in sport but so is sqaud rotation and sharing loads. If fatigue is a massive issue it does make you wonder why we aren't rotating the team more and rewarding guys like Howes and Woey with games?

 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

13 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

What's Geelongs excuse for kicking 6.2 in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions?

Collingwood kicked 5.2 in the last quarter and ran out winners.

They're loading in a heavy block of training too??

We’d be mad to think that any other finals contending team wouldn’t have some form of loading program in flight. So agree that in most part it should cancel itself out. 

The bye factor though - is something different. And playing the Cats off the bye appears to be consistent with some really shockers over the past few weeks. How the Pies managed to escape that fate, must be part of the same deal with the AFL have with Pies on away game reserve seating. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Gawndy the Great

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,708]

4 hours ago, binman said:

All excellent points AF.

I'd add one more (and then stay out of it, i mean who can be bothered - if someone is not convinced by the mountain of evidence by now - teams losing after the bye being just one more - then their minds are made up).

Our fitness fell away late in the 2022 season. Some argue that is evidence against the fact we did a mid season heavy block of training  (which frankly is just assinine).

Well, the obvious counter is that whilst it did not work for us - it DID work for the cats, who openly said they copied our approach (and acknowledged that a factor in their perennial failure to win a flag despite finishing top 4 in mutiple seasons was running our of gas late in the season)

The cats ran out the season as powerfully as we did in 2021, and like us had a clear fitness edge over all other teams (bar perhaps the pies). It was a massive factor in their dominant run from aprox this point in the 2022 season.

Having adopted our mid season heavy block of training, the Cats won the flag.

So, the last two flags, at least, have been won by teams who have done a mid season heavy block of training.

No doubt it is industry standard now. 

Not that you'd know that listening to media people scratch their heads trying to explain how freo, coming off a bye and clearly fatigued, could be so, so poor against the giants.

And play so well the very next, beating a top 8 team convincingly, looking a completely different side, and magical running over the ground and looking fresh.

Same deal for the suns, who fell in a heap last week, and were out of gas and look a completely different team today (against the hawks, who out ran and smashed the post bye lions just a couple of weeks back).

Or even amusingly, how they will explain why so far, if the suns go on to win their game against the hawks, the only two teams who have won after the bye have played a team also coming off a bye (saints and pies). 

It makes total sense @binman the proof will be in the pudding in a months time.

Key is for the team to stay healthy.

Edited June 25, 2023 by YesitwasaWin4theAges

[Jaded No More 68,973]

52 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

What's Geelongs excuse for kicking 6.2 in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions?

Collingwood kicked 5.2 in the last quarter and ran out winners.

They're loading in a heavy block of training too??

The only team to win after the bye were teams to play other teams coming off a bye. And neither win was convincing (see today’s Pies Adelaide game). 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I'm sorry, back them up with what exactly? 

If you're believer by the looks of it then what's your take on it? Intrigued to hear your personal opinion you have on it as you are a regular training attendee.

Because I would like to think you're simply not just jumping on the back of others purely because your dislike for myself has a different narrative that doesn't wear rosy red and blue glasses like you'd all like us to be and just calls it as he sees it....

How patronising you are. You’re implying I have no idea about loading. I’ve read pretty much everything here about the loading theory (or as you childishly call it, ‘fantasy’) but why the hell would I even entertain the thought of expounding on such to any degree when I witness how frustrating it is for the likes of Binman and others who are constantly coming up against stubborn, unreasonable people whose minds are well and truly made up? I’m not a masochist.  (Ironically it’s these selfsame ppl who usually raise the topic, after a loss of course.)

I make no secret of the fact that I dislike you but that has nothing to do with my belief in the loading theory. That’s your caper, ie: you applaud or like certain posts not necessarily because you agree with them but because they disagree with the opinion of someone you don’t like. I’m not alone in seeing this. I received a surprising number of PMs the other night each sharing the same sentiment.

Maybe you should try on a pair of red and blue glasses. See how you go. You’ll likely enjoy and appreciate our team as you (even occasionally) should. 

[The heart beats true 18,145]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

What's Geelongs excuse for kicking 6.2 in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions?

Collingwood kicked 5.2 in the last quarter and ran out winners.

They're loading in a heavy block of training too??

First of all this is the funniest way to make an argument against something you don’t believe in. Argue that we aren’t doing it, but that other teams are???

But I’ll humour your odd assumption by saying that you are completely correct. The teams mentioned ARE all in different heavy training, BUT you have to take the contexts of their wins into consideration.

Collingwood played against another side off the bye who also are training to be playing in September. Adelaide is Burgess and Burgess is a huge advocate for loading. The effects possibly nullified each other - and it was as close to a draw as you can get.

Geelong played last week so would have had a lighter running load this week, and a crucially important week of match conditioning. But don’t take my word for it….

Not one side has won coming off the bye playing a side that played the week before. Not one. The 16th side beat the 3rd side. The 9th side beat the 4th side. The 11th side beat the 6th. I could go on and on across literally every game. All 8 of them.

Training loads have a massive impact on output and performance. If you don’t want to see that then there’s not much point talking about it.

[binman 43,757]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

What's Geelongs excuse for kicking 6.2 in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions?

Collingwood kicked 5.2 in the last quarter and ran out winners.

They're loading in a heavy block of training too??

I accept your apology dazzler. Let's move on

But not before i break my own ban on this topic only hours after making it!

A central argument i am making is that fatigue from loading is a key factor to consider when assessing any game of footy at this time of year.

In terms of our games, i think it is the biggest factor in our middling form since, and inclusive of, the Freo game. And that includes the Pies game (i think both teams were impacted by fatigue in that game - the pies more than us actually, which is one reason I'm not reading too much into that win).

But of course, it is far from the only factor. And i fully concede that i might be wrong and that is not the biggest factor. But it is 100% a factor - the only real debate is how big a factor.

I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but you make some really good points about the issues that concern you -  eg forward connection, team selection, game plan and form of some players.

Where we diverge is my belief those issues all intersect with fatigue and the impact of a heavy block of mid season training.

And so, i don't agree the issues you highlight have nothing to do with loading

Take selection. You suggested the team selection for this game had 'nothing to do with loading'. But i don't think that is true. Goody said at the beginning of the year he would use the sub as a tactical option OR related to load management.

My assumption the reason Spargo was selected as a sub this week was for load management reasons (interestingly he was gassed, and subbed off last week for Jordon and they reversed roles this week with Jordon coming of for Spargo. Coincidence? Unlikely). So, if I'm correct, it very much has something to do with loading.

Perhaps as a young player, who is absolutely in our best 22, Bowey really struggled with the big block of training and because the goal is for him to be cherry ripe come finals they decided the best course of action was to play him in the lower intensity VFL game. In this scenario, that would be a decision very much informed by loading.

Similarly, a factor in the the form slump you mention some players are in might be fatigue. I guess it depends on how long you think Pickett, Langdon, Gawn, Spargo, Chandler, ANB, and May have been in a form slump, but if you mean the last 3-4 weeks, well, that coincides with the loading phase. So it is reasonable to at least consider that as a causal factor - particularly for young players like Koz and Chandler. So again, form of players DOES have something to do with loading (in this period).

I 100% agree the way we played against the Dogs and Sydney is how we want to play and that involves playing a fast attacking brand and sling shotting off half back to generate scoring pressure. That will be the game plan we will take into the finals. But ONLY if we are fit enough to execute that game plan - from the start of the game to the last minute. 

And the only way they can be confident of being fit enough to execute that game plan come finals is to do the loading now (which is the point Scott was making last year about being prepared to miss the 8 because they are going hard to increase their chances of winning the flag) - but as we saw last year, that is still no guarantee of course that,  for any number of reasons (eg injury) we will be fit enough when the whips are cracking.

You are right to say we've reverted back to the slow ball movement style (but only in the last 3-4 weeks) which gets picked apart. The question is why?

The dogs was round one and the swans round three. At no point in the rest of this season will we be fitter and stronger than we were in those two games. Which is critical context because the game plan we saw in those matches involves a crazy level of all team high speed running. If we are not close to optimal fitness (like right now), we cant execute that game plan properly. The Pies method is even more reliant on running power. 

The all team high speed running and spread required for our preferred game plan is impossible to propery implement when the team is collectively fatigued. Which i think is why Goody has really emphasized defence in the last few weeks. One, to mitigate the impact of fatigue (less ballistic footy is less aerobically taxing). And two, we will struggle to win if we stick with our preferred game plan but don't have the run in the legs to implement it properly (ironically goody was criticised in 2021 and 2022 on DL for being too rigid with the game plan and not trying new things).

So, the game plan is very much is related to loading - both in the sense of the loading giving them a shot at being fit enough come finals and as it relates to the impact of the fatigue on our ability to execute/implement our preferred method.  

The point i'm driving at is, of course loading is not an excuse or the only factor for our performance in our recent matches - but IT IS an important factor to consider, precisely BECAUSE it intersects with, and impacts, all of the many other factors and variables at play.  

It is that intersection that interests me. I don't feel i can understand the game without considering these intersections.

As a thought experiment, try to explain why all teams have lost after the bye thus far WITHOUT factoring in fatigue (surely 10 teams can't all find it hard to mentally get going and switch on after a bye - which is the only explanation i have heard from the footy media so far).

I take your point about the Pies kicking five two in the last today. I'm not sure if you watched the game, but they had no run. They were run off their feet in the third and looked nothing like they do at their rampaging best. But if you factor in fatigue then the assessment of the game changes.

The key factor in that game was BOTH teams were coming off their bye, and therefore a heavy training block. Both teams struggled in the last. So for the Pies to kick 5.2 in the last under fatigue is super impressive and I  mark their performance up for that. 

Outside say the four best kicks in each team, across the  board they have much better kicks than us, with superior technique. Good technique hold up better under pressure and fatigue than poor technique. Our poor technique is being exposed ATM. 

Saying loading is a factor in our current accuracy issues (or our turnover clangers - ugh) doesn't diminish the fact that our kicking IS an issue of concern. 

The Cats kicked 6.2 in the last quarter in wet and heavy conditions and ran all over the top of us - because they were clearly not feeling the effects of loading to the same degree as they were the previous week, when coming off their bye. In their Port game they completely ran out of gas in the last quarter. 

But the Cats v Dees was their second post bye match. And, in a mirror to their performance against Port, they ran over the top of us in the last - exactly like the Suns and Freo (who were both out on their feet last week in their post bye matches) did to the Hawks and bombers this round. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by binman

[picket fence 17,498]

7 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

Why can’t we have issues AND loading be ONE of those issues?

Will we improve once we taper off? Probably. Will we become a flawless team? Absolutely not. 

There are many issues going on with the side at the moment. Some easier to solve than others. Some that can be explained by a heavier block of loading, and some that cannot. 

Our limp performance against Freo and the last quarter against Geelong/Pies are maybe a loading issue. Our lack of reliable contested marking forward target, is not. 
Poor skill execution is maybe a loading fatigue issue. Overusing the footy by hand in heavy rain is not, it’s just dumb football. 

Can we still win the flag this year? Absolutely. This is a season of ordinary top sides and equally competitive middle of the road sides. If you make the 8 you can probably win it if you get some good luck. 
Do we need to improve our ball use/goal kicking/forward connection and settle on a winning structure in order to win it? Absolutely. 

I reckon we might go out in straight sets again this year unless a hell of a lot changes.

1 Game plan and all that Jazz

2 Team selections

3 Fitness

4 Too many NQR players

If we do go out similar to last year where does that leave Goodwin?