3 minutes ago, Clintosaurus said:

We need more from the second tier players

That's the key, Clint

Most of the 2nd tier players are down on their best.  In all cases, their best isn't great so to drop from reasonably good to average, fair or below par is definitely an issue 

Especially when we count up all the 2nd tier players.  An easier way to analyse is to list all our best players ... that adds up to 12-14 players.  Probably 15 if we count T-Mac

It could be that a lot of our 2nd tier players all had one of their best seasons all in the same year (last year) That can happen

As for our best players, we had about 9 of them last year that were in All- Australian contention but this year that number might be 3 - 5 (Oliver, Gawn, Petracca and maybe Brayshaw & Viney)

May, Lever, Langdon & Salem are not in contention like they were last year.  Injuries are a factor with a few of our best players too

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

That's the key, Clint

Most of the 2nd tier players are down on their best.  In all cases, their best isn't great so to drop from reasonably good to average, fair or below par is definitely an issue 

Especially when we count up all the 2nd tier players.  An easier way to analyse is to list all our best players ... that adds up to 12-14 players.  Probably 15 if we count T-Mac

It could be that a lot of our 2nd tier players all had one of their best seasons all in the same year (last year) That can happen

As for our best players, we had about 9 of them last year that were in All- Australian contention but this year that number might be 3 - 5 (Oliver, Gawn, Petracca and maybe Brayshaw & Viney)

May, Lever, Langdon & Salem are not in contention like they were last year.  Injuries are a factor with a few of our best players too

That's right. Last year it would be fair to say that our bottom 6 players were as good as anyone going round, can't say that this year as the Cats have probably taken that mantle.

It was always going to be so hard to replicate the performances of last season.

7 minutes ago, layzie said:

That's right. Last year it would be fair to say that our bottom 6 players were as good as anyone going round, can't say that this year as the Cats have probably taken that mantle.

It was always going to be so hard to replicate the performances of last season.

I reckon the most logical answer is that 2nd tier players are called 2nd tier players for a reason

Some can play a role quite well, others have one standout game in 4 or 5 with the rest of the games being a mixed bag and some only have 1 or 2 decent year's in them and that's it

So a good club churns the 2nd tier players over or has an eye to keep bringing in good players either established elsewhere or through the draft (to replace the 2nd tier players)

And the best time to revitalise the list is when a team is in the premiership window ... certain 2nd tier players might be traded elsewhere in order to ultimately improve the list

If you sit still, you're going backwards.  The complication is that a premiership brings togetherness and a bond between and within the players and the supporters

So it's a tricky exercise moving players on

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

I reckon the most logical answer is that 2nd tier players are called 2nd tier players for a reason

Some can play a role quite well, others have one standout game in 4 or 5 with the rest of the games being a mixed bag and some only have 1 or 2 decent year's in them and that's it

So a good club churns the 2nd tier players over or has an eye to keep bringing in good players either established elsewhere or through the draft (to replace the 2nd tier players)

And the best time to revitalise the list is when a team is in the premiership window ... certain 2nd tier players might be traded elsewhere in order to ultimately improve the list

If you sit still, you're going backwards.  The complication is that a premiership brings togetherness and a bond between and within the players and the supporters

So it's a tricky exercise moving players on

There's definitely a band of brothers feeling about Collingwood right now. Each player willing to put their body on the line for a teammate every time. You'd love watching this as a fan right now because it's so hard to capture this kind of synergy. 

12 minutes ago, layzie said:

There's definitely a band of brothers feeling about Collingwood right now. Each player willing to put their body on the line for a teammate every time. You'd love watching this as a fan right now because it's so hard to capture this kind of synergy. 

McRae coaches to his players strengths and it's quality over quantity.  And he is a good communicator by the looks of it

By contrast we are heavily into quantity.  A lot of contested possessions, lots of handballing, lots of forward 50 entries etc etc ... and that served us well last year because we won the flag

But we were extremely efficient in the PF & GF so there's that.  We also scored 10 goals in the first half on Friday night so we're getting a lot right as well

But it's the fade-outs and the giving up of leads that are the concern

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

McRae coaches to his players strengths and it's quality over quantity.  And he is a good communicator by the looks of it

By contrast we are heavily into quantity.  A lot of contested possessions, lots of handballing, lots of forward 50 entries etc etc ... and that served us well last year because we won the flag

But we were extremely efficient in the PF & GF so there's that.  We also scored 10 goals in the first half on Friday night so we're getting a lot right as well

But it's the fade-outs and the giving up of leads that are the concern

Yeah we're more about the 'Moneyball' approach, which has worked well and I can still get around it. You really just need a certain level of cutting edge in front of goal and then there's no complaints.

Fly does strike me as the kind of coach who would allow players' personalities to come out in their games. Embrace these guys for what they are and if they can be themselves then they can play the best footy that they can play. He doesn't seem like a coach that would plant regimen and structure into guys with a cookie cutter. The bloke deserves a lot of credit, very close to AA coach for me. 

8 minutes ago, layzie said:

Yeah we're more about the 'Moneyball' approach, which has worked well and I can still get around it. You really just need a certain level of cutting edge in front of goal and then there's no complaints.

Fly does strike me as the kind of coach who would allow players' personalities to come out in their games. Embrace these guys for what they are and if they can be themselves then they can play the best footy that they can play. He doesn't seem like a coach that would plant regimen and structure into guys with a cookie cutter. The bloke deserves a lot of credit, very close to AA coach for me. 

Yes, but the football gods can punish like no other.  Especially at Collingwood with their close on 30 GF losses

Their supporters are continually thrown huge doses of hope only for it to end in tears

McRae has done very well so far but if he doesn't win big, they'll go at him.  Even this year

Have you ever met a reasonably minded Pie supporter, layz? 

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yes, but the football gods can punish like no other.  Especially at Collingwood with their close on 30 GF losses

Their supporters are continually thrown huge doses of hope only for it to end in tears

McRae has done very well so far but if he doesn't win big, they'll go at him.  Even this year

Have you ever met a reasonably minded Pie supporter, layz? 

Wait a minute........ no. Actually hang on a second............................................ no. 

Our skills, running game and decision making will improve each week till the end, which is going to be a problem for a lot of teams.

For me, if MFC can win a game that is there to be won, a game not totally going our way and on our terms but we end up pinching it. One that we lead at every change and then hold off a challenge, that would go a long way to restoring my belief.

30 minutes ago, von said:

Our skills, running game and decision making will improve each week till the end, which is going to be a problem for a lot of teams.

I noticed aswell on friday Salem was back to his best. He was hitting up the short kick to CHF much like last season which gives a clean entry inside 50.

We have definitely been missing his skillful kicking and to be honest we need Bowey back in the team. His kicking is also elite and often changes angles with an inward kick on the 45. These guys really help our offence from our back half and rarely kick a wasteful kick down the line.

Edited August 8, 20222 yr by Deenooos_

There is a million different ways this can play out.

Imo it's harder for us to miss the top 4 than make it.

If Collingwood wins both of Sydney and Carlton I am loading on them for the flag.

St Kilda will get a win against one of Sydney and Brisbane.

We'll beat one of Carlton and Brisbane.

I can see Carlton stealing one of Melbourne or Collingwood.

The Bulldogs having an easy run is actually good for us as it pressures the Saints into performing. 

Sydney losses to the Saints.

All teams need to keep winning and no team can afford to drop both. 

Outside of the Carlton games I'd so most battles are 50/50.

We win both then it's pointless discussing.

We all need to be barracking very very hard for the Saints on Friday.

2 hours ago, von said:

Our skills, running game and decision making will improve each week till the end, which is going to be a problem for a lot of teams.

Even more so if we start nailing goals!

The next game against the Blues is critical. 

I'm not interested in dropping one of these games, we really need to win both as it's too close to finals to simply say, oh we'll put it together in the finals. It's like performing poorly in a practice exam, and assuming, with no other changes, that we'll perform in the final exam. We won't. This is our preparation for finals - we only have two more rounds to do it! We did a lot right on Friday, but as we learned then, we can still be beaten if we don't execute. 

Anyway.

Aside from beating GWS and the Eagles (yawn), the Blues' last 6 weeks has shown them being beaten by the Saints, Crows and the Lions. They are not traveling well right now, and there is no excuse for us not bringing the heat against them, and locking away a solid win before we travel north for another win on the road. 

Nathan Nones was on SEN before, he also highlighted the inability for us to control teams that move the ball quick. I honestly feel all we really need to do is tighten up our pressure, defensive structures on quick ball movement and the rest will take care of itself. We had enough scoring shots to win the game on Friday and our attack has been much better since the bye.

https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=1029896
 

 

I wonder if we should be more 1 on 1 in the forward half as opposed to giving effectively up to the wing away in order to set up behind the ball. Teams moving the ball fast don't allow this to happen as often so slowing them up in F50 would help immensely.

6 hours ago, Macca said:

I reckon the most logical answer is that 2nd tier players are called 2nd tier players for a reason

Some can play a role quite well, others have one standout game in 4 or 5 with the rest of the games being a mixed bag and some only have 1 or 2 decent year's in them and that's it

So a good club churns the 2nd tier players over or has an eye to keep bringing in good players either established elsewhere or through the draft (to replace the 2nd tier players)

And the best time to revitalise the list is when a team is in the premiership window ... certain 2nd tier players might be traded elsewhere in order to ultimately improve the list

If you sit still, you're going backwards.  The complication is that a premiership brings togetherness and a bond between and within the players and the supporters

So it's a tricky exercise moving players on

Part of the 2nd tier syndrome problem is that no real new players have been introduced in place of the 2nd tier players from last year that have not "produced " in their roles this season. 

If you go through our list there have also been injuries so about 2/3 of our list have not improved nor have some been given a chance to succeed in the firsts.

I personally think Goody has protected and favoured Premiership players to an unhealthy extent that is providing almost an impossible chance for recruits and younger guys to be given a realistic chance of succeeding. 

Some players That have been overlooked too often are IMO Chandler, Laurie and Dunstan especially after high possession and goal scoring games. In addition others such as ANB Spargo and Even Harmesy might benefit from runs at Casey when not in top form. 

Then there has been the Fritsch and now Kossie selfishness vs team play which appears to have cost us wins and goals along with Maysie's restaurant ranting perhaps not being solved in an efficient and team spirit manner. 

Also it appears that after nearly 2 seasons The defence is not handling the strict May/Lever standards if 2021. 

Having all of the above it's not beyond us to weld together a la 2021 and produce our best under pressure and also get our other nemesis under control so we kick with greater accuracy in set shots. 

All our 30 players with ability are good enough and so are the Coaches it's up to us to solve these mostly changeable parts of our game up once again to be the hunted who relish a challenge and a hard battle to succeed grandly again.

we have played in fits and spurts with no idea of how to win when the pressure has been on in the last quarter. Back to basics is always the best in this situation. 

We knew it wouldn't be easy to go back to back and the footy gods are not on our side but we can do better  and drag this our way with good old fashioned heart and soul footy all on the same page. 

Go Dees!!! 

 

2 hours ago, 58er said:

Part of the 2nd tier syndrome problem is that no real new players have been introduced in place of the 2nd tier players from last year that have not "produced " in their roles this season. 

If you go through our list there have also been injuries so about 2/3 of our list have not improved nor have some been given a chance to succeed in the firsts.

I personally think Goody has protected and favoured Premiership players to an unhealthy extent that is providing almost an impossible chance for recruits and younger guys to be given a realistic chance of succeeding. 

Some players That have been overlooked too often are IMO Chandler, Laurie and Dunstan especially after high possession and goal scoring games. In addition others such as ANB Spargo and Even Harmesy might benefit from runs at Casey when not in top form. 

Then there has been the Fritsch and now Kossie selfishness vs team play which appears to have cost us wins and goals along with Maysie's restaurant ranting perhaps not being solved in an efficient and team spirit manner. 

Also it appears that after nearly 2 seasons The defence is not handling the strict May/Lever standards if 2021. 

Having all of the above it's not beyond us to weld together a la 2021 and produce our best under pressure and also get our other nemesis under control so we kick with greater accuracy in set shots. 

All our 30 players with ability are good enough and so are the Coaches it's up to us to solve these mostly changeable parts of our game up once again to be the hunted who relish a challenge and a hard battle to succeed grandly again.

we have played in fits and spurts with no idea of how to win when the pressure has been on in the last quarter. Back to basics is always the best in this situation. 

We knew it wouldn't be easy to go back to back and the footy gods are not on our side but we can do better  and drag this our way with good old fashioned heart and soul footy all on the same page. 

Go Dees!!! 
 

It has to be remembered that in 5 of the 6 losses we have played some very good football within those games ... and led  those 5 matches in the 25 point margin area

Even against Geelong we were within striking distance 10-15 minutes into the last quarter

So it's not like we've been swamped early and are then trying to play catch-up

And we've won 14 games

We're are still in the race but as previously mentioned, we almost certainly need to win all our remaining games to win it all

But our inside 50 forays need to be of a higher quality ... we need another tall marking option

3 talls works better than 2 and it keeps the opposition honest.  Bombing it to the forward pocket might have been an ok strategy when it was working but now we are just telegraphing our intentions and the other teams have figured out how to defend that strategy

Edited August 8, 20222 yr by Macca

Just frustrated that v Port and Freo I got the impression that we speared lower into the forward line than in our games v Coll and Footscrag where we just bomber it king and high into the picket.  Maybe it wasn’t so and just appeared to be because of the result, or maybe the opposition defence just didn’t handle it as well. 

42 minutes ago, Macca said:

The bit to remember is that in 5 of the 6 losses we have played some very good football within those games ... and led in those 5 matches in the 25 point margin area

Even against Geelong we were within striking distance 10 - 15 minutes into the last quarter

So it's not like we've been swamped early and are then trying to play catch-up

And we've won 14 games

We're are still in the race but as previously mentioned, we almost certainly need to win all our remaining games to win it all

But our inside 50 forays need to be of a higher quality ... we need another tall marking option

3 talls works better than 2 and it keeps the opposition honest.  Bombing it to the forward pocket might have been an ok strategy when it was working but now we are just telegraphing our intentions and the other teams have figured out how to defend that strategy

“..We're are still in the race but as previously mentioned, we almost certainly need to win all our remaining games to win it a….”

Just 5 more wins please fellas, that’s all we ask for. 

4 hours ago, Wodjathefirst said:

Even more so if we start nailing goals!

I reckon all that helps with nailing goals

What concerns me regardless of what team we put onto the field is that the two best performing teams going around at present and ones that arguably provide the biggest obstacle to repeating our heroics from last season are Geelong and Collingwood. if we were too come up against a Geelong in the finals despite results this year, might there still be a bit of residual Geelong concern about what we might still be able to bring to a final's match?

But coming up against Collingwood in a final? I agree we were in it for large parts of the game and were overrun in the last but if past results are anything to go by, when I checked since 2017, Goodwin's record against the Pies is 2 wins for 7 losses with an average loss of just shy of 24 points. I realise finals are a different beast and past results are not necessarily predictors of future ones. But.... would Collingwood be particularly worried coming face to face again with the Dees at any stage of the finals? There's no scar tissue for this group of Pies and probably a great deal of confidence that they will find a way to beat the Dees whatever team structure we put onto the park!

 

5 hours ago, praha said:

There is a million different ways this can play out.

Imo it's harder for us to miss the top 4 than make it.

Around late July last year  I wasn't sure if we'd finish in the top 4,  at that stage we could have finished anywhere between 1st and 5th depending on how things played out.

At the end of the day a kick after the siren in our last game cemented top spot.

Sometimes everything goes right but my brain is once again doing the computations and uncertain where we'll finish this year - will be a bit of a bumpy 2 weeks for all clubs involved.