On 8/6/2022 at 4:33 PM, Dee Zephyr said:

Didn’t think it would take long lol, he’s actually tearing Essendon a new one in the last quarter. Looking really mobile and taking some strong marks.

Just noticed that, DZ.

I'd already formed a view that he might be on the radar for a few clubs.  Not a big money contract as that ship has sailed

Playing as a KPF is not for everyone.  And they aren't in abundance ... Hogan as a no.2 key forward, yes (for a number of teams who have a scarcity of key forwards)

He had a great game ... that'll see fit for a new contract (somewhere) And he is out of contract.  A restricted free agent I believe.  He's free to a new home if teams want to bypass a trade

If he'd lost his way, we wouldn't be seeing these types of performances ... 17 disposals, 4 goals 2 behinds,  a dozen marks and he led the AF points (whatever that is)

Probably the difference between the 2 sides ... GWS won by 27 points

 

Edited August 7, 20222 yr by Macca

On 8/6/2022 at 8:00 AM, bush demon said:

On a serious note, Chris Aitken also worth another look at. Can take a contested mark and has excellent previous form with the Dees, kicking five in the last round of 1967.

Lok, I would consider bringing back Norm Smith and play him for 90 mins plus time on at both CHF and FF. We would win every game then I am sure.

@Rhino Richards

Please explain to me why what I said warranted a facepalm. 

Feel free to disagree with what I said all you like, but I don't think it was that obtuse or outrageous that it deserved that.

I love Jesse and would have him back in a heartbeat, but I can't see how his style of play would suit the way we seemingly want to play.

He'd be a great fit for Collingwood with their quick ball movement, but he would hate sitting in the pocket waiting to be crunched by ten defenders whilst we stuff around on the wing.

2 hours ago, poita said:

I love Jesse and would have him back in a heartbeat, but I can't see how his style of play would suit the way we seemingly want to play.

 

We just tweak our game plan a bit to accommodate for Jesse's strengths. As a second tall with BBB he would be free to roam the forward line and cause mayhem with his strong one on one marking and seriously good footy smarts.

Please, please yes.

On 8/6/2022 at 5:02 PM, 1964_2 said:

Jack Watts and Liam Jurrah would have functioned better than our forward line this year 

 

You reckon? The pressure would have been non existent and the ball pinged back the other way. 👌

The thing about Jesse, and it was discussed on here the year we traded him, is he's not a traditional KPF. He's closer to a third tall or an oversized flanker. He can take a good mark (see against Rance), but we had questions on his ability to be the King, Larkey etc in 2018. 

I know we need options and he'd likely be cheap, but I think we need better marking options.

7 minutes ago, A F said:

The thing about Jesse, and it was discussed on here the year we traded him, is he's not a traditional KPF. He's closer to a third tall or an oversized flanker. He can take a good mark (see against Rance), but we had questions on his ability to be the King, Larkey etc in 2018. 

I know we need options and he'd likely be cheap, but I think we need better marking options.

Exactly.

And we already have a non traditional KPF, third tall or an oversized flanker in JVR.

I totally get the knock on McStay. He's no world beater, but he competes hard in the air and would complement BB and/or TMac pretty well.

Personally, I'd love to see a two tall set up, with JVR as a super dangerous high half forward, who can occasionally play as a defensive forward if required. 

So a forward line with Tmac, BB, JVR, Fritter, Kossie, Spargo and Nibbler (the latter two rotating through there)  

19 minutes ago, A F said:

The thing about Jesse, and it was discussed on here the year we traded him, is he's not a traditional KPF. He's closer to a third tall or an oversized flanker. He can take a good mark (see against Rance), but we had questions on his ability to be the King, Larkey etc in 2018. 

I know we need options and he'd likely be cheap, but I think we need better marking options.

Not a KPF?  Seriously, AF?

He's a big boy, he gets to the right spots, puts his body on the line, can take a good grab and has a real presence up forward.  And kicks goals from the hot spot (and his kicking for goal has improved)

On top of that he doesn't take the soft easy option of leading to the boundary line (key forwards who do that are avoiding contact)

That's your very definition of a KPF

1 hour ago, tiers said:

We just tweak our game plan a bit to accommodate for Jesse's strengths. As a second tall with BBB he would be free to roam the forward line and cause mayhem with his strong one on one marking and seriously good footy smarts.

Please, please yes.

Just as T McD did last year - and hopefully will be back to do again in 2023.  But he could do that just as well with a Hogan T McD combination than with BBB, who anyone must see is on his last legs, or leg even.  The boy Larkey from North looks OK - no idea of his contract status, but could he be lured into a (potentially) regulate top 4 team instead of watering away at the bottom of the ladder (or in Hobart?)

1 hour ago, binman said:

Exactly.

And we already have a non traditional KPF, third tall or an oversized flanker in JVR.

I totally get the knock on McStay. He's no world beater, but he competes hard in the air and would complement BB and/or TMac pretty well.

Personally, I'd love to see a two tall set up, with JVR as a super dangerous high half forward, who can occasionally play as a defensive forward if required. 

So a forward line with Tmac, BB, JVR, Fritter, Kossie, Spargo and Nibbler (the latter two rotating through there)  

We're at a fascinating juncture with our forward set up. I wouldn't be against having McStay come in provided the coin wasn't ridiculous, because I think BB and TMac will struggle to get on the park regularly from here on out. 

You've also got Fritter as the third tall, so how many similar types can you play? It may protect JVR a little longer and also provide good competition for the tall forward spots.

The other factor worth thinking about is whether we look to change the way we move the ball forward from slow plays (ie move away from the long kick to the pockets).

I think we're playing this as a percentage play, but also due to the personnel we have on our list. If we could recruit another zippy x factor small to compliment Kozzy (ala the Richmond 2017 model of the mosquito fleet at the feet of Riewoldt), I think we could look at going smaller with more chaos, and particularly if Jackson leaves, we may not need to play a resting ruck as such. Though Weideman probably gets a go there as the second tall.

Then you have Kozzy, the other x factor small (with Bedford and Chandler, if they stick around, as back ups), plus Fritsch, a resting Trac and Max, Spargo up the ground, either on a wing (he's probably too small to make the wing his own) or at high half forward with ANB on the same wing. JJ may need to find a new position or roll through the midfield.

I think you could almost just play one tall, whether that be BB, McStay or TMac. My feeling on TMac though is he might change your set up to two talls as his endurance could afford this. I just don't think we can rely on his body. But maybe it's a similar thing with JVR. He could enable us to play two talls. I do worry about the forward pressure angle though.

If you look at what someone like Stengle has added at Geelong, if you could imagine someone like that to partner with Kozzy, I think that would be ideal. Maybe I'm arguing that another x factor small is more important than another KPF (unless it was a Larkey, King etc gun)? :P

Edited August 8, 20222 yr by A F

14 minutes ago, Macca said:

Not a KPF?  Seriously, AF?

He's a big boy, he gets to the right spots, puts his body on the line, can take a good grab and has a real presence up forward.  And kicks goals from the hot spot (and his kicking for goal has improved)

On top of that he doesn't take the soft easy option of leading to the boundary line (key forwards who do that are avoiding contact)

That's your very definition of a KPF

My point was he doesn't play like a KPF IMO. He can take a good grab, but not consistently, nor does he have a real presence (again MO).

He's a beautiful field kick for a big bloke, but his ground level pressure is average (how many times did we lament his lack of tackles for the MFC - I certainly did).

11 minutes ago, Macca said:

Not a KPF?  Seriously, AF?

He's a big boy, he gets to the right spots, puts his body on the line, can take a good grab and has a real presence up forward.  And kicks goals from the hot spot (and his kicking for goal has improved)

On top of that he doesn't take the soft easy option of leading to the boundary line (key forwards who do that are avoiding contact)

That's your very definition of a KPF

Hogan has the forward craft and has a high footy IQ. He would demand a defender on him at all times, one that is unlikely to play off him. Couple that with some half decent forward coaching and you'd create an abundance of space in the F50 for which we would have  BBB, Fritta and TMac  all benefiting. 

To me its clear that we need a hard bodied competitor in the forward line. Hogan is probably gettable, comes at a reasonable price and would have immediate impact. He should be looked at.

13 minutes ago, A F said:

My point was he doesn't play like a KPF IMO. He can take a good grab, but not consistently, nor does he have a real presence (again MO).

He's a beautiful field kick for a big bloke, but his ground level pressure is average (how many times did we lament his lack of tackles for the MFC - I certainly did).

We wouldn't be getting him for his tackling skills but lets not forget that he looked good in the midfield under Roos (at times)

As for the rest of it, fair enough.  We can agree to disagree

Right now, I don't believe that the club would be looking at him strongly (might be 2 vs 5 with regards to the people that would make the decision) ... but that can change if one of the 5 others is swayed across

But that's just a guess, none of us know any of opinions of the MC.  Not sure we'd rule a line through Jesse because the cost could easily be salary only ($400k per annum for 2 years) as he is a free agent and GWS would have to match it. 

So no draft picks given up to secure the player 

And GWS need to dump salary by the looks of it.  He'll end up somewhere and he may well be re-contracted at GWS

 

While I still think it's a slightly out there thought, there aren't many options out there that would come cheap. Still leaning towards no but not totally dismissive.

13 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

@Rhino Richards

Please explain to me why what I said warranted a facepalm. 

Feel free to disagree with what I said all you like, but I don't think it was that obtuse or outrageous that it deserved that.

His fingers have been surgically removed 1 by 1. He can only bash the Emoji’s now 

Quite sad really 

2 hours ago, CYB said:

Hogan has the forward craft and has a high footy IQ. He would demand a defender on him at all times, one that is unlikely to play off him. Couple that with some half decent forward coaching and you'd create an abundance of space in the F50 for which we would have  BBB, Fritta and TMac  all benefiting. 

To me its clear that we need a hard bodied competitor in the forward line. Hogan is probably gettable, comes at a reasonable price and would have immediate impact. He should be looked at.

CYB - you mention "half decent forward coaching", presumably an advance on our current 1/10 th decent forward coaching.  

As well as big bodied forwards we need an executable plan not the easily negotiable plan we have now.

As an aside re JVR, Mihocek at 192 cm and 97 kg does pretty wel, 36 goals in 2022l: many are saying that JVR 193 cm 92 kg (at start of 2022, so doubtless bigger that that now) isn't big enough to do a job.  Is he worth a run even at this late stage?

11 minutes ago, monoccular said:

CYB - you mention "half decent forward coaching", presumably an advance on our current 1/10 th decent forward coaching.  

As well as big bodied forwards we need an executable plan not the easily negotiable plan we have now.

As an aside re JVR, Mihocek at 192 cm and 97 kg does pretty wel, 36 goals in 2022l: many are saying that JVR 193 cm 92 kg (at start of 2022, so doubtless bigger that that now) isn't big enough to do a job.  Is he worth a run even at this late stage?

Well the strategy has been 1 KPF (Brown), 1 Resting Ruck (Gawn), 2 x Mediums (Fritsch & Melksham) and 3 rotating smalls (ANB, Spargo & Kossie) ... and then we often bomb it long into the Forward Pocket (often from the corridor)

Add a KPF (Van Rooyan) and take out one of the smalls (or Melksham) and we'd see a better balance

From the corridor the midfielder can pick out 1 of the 3 tall targets (who should all be making position - not in the same area of the forward line)

And then hit the targets with the smalls ready to pounce on the crumbs

It's not rocket science Mono.  Just a basic forward line strategy

Edited August 8, 20222 yr by Macca

10 minutes ago, monoccular said:

CYB - you mention "half decent forward coaching", presumably an advance on our current 1/10 th decent forward coaching.  

As well as big bodied forwards we need an executable plan not the easily negotiable plan we have now.

As an aside re JVR, Mihocek at 192 cm and 97 kg does pretty wel, 36 goals in 2022l: many are saying that JVR 193 cm 92 kg (at start of 2022, so doubtless bigger that that now) isn't big enough to do a job.  Is he worth a run even at this late stage?

Yep, use some of the softcap to recruit a forward coach. Goal kicking, leading patterns, when to handball, when not to. 

Mihocek is a benefactor of fast ball movement, with a relatively open forward half. He is an ok forward. Ill go as far as saying that even Weed would look better in a team with that type of ball movement. 

JVR just needs time. He is not the answer today, maybe next year, but much more likely to have a bigger impact from 2024+. So we need someone to fill the void. 28-30 yo is the primary target zone because they are most like FA (when out of contract), wont demand top dollar and are mature bodied, meaning they will impact immediately. 

Shopping list to complete the perfect Demon 22:

1x peak Jesse Hogan

1x peak Paddy Ryder

1x peak Neville Jetta

If Jackson stays, obviously remove the Paddy Ryder requirement.

Actually, you could take the best available discount brand version of those three and our list would be all set.

7 hours ago, poita said:

I love Jesse and would have him back in a heartbeat, but I can't see how his style of play would suit the way we seemingly want to play.

He'd be a great fit for Collingwood with their quick ball movement, but he would hate sitting in the pocket waiting to be crunched by ten defenders whilst we stuff around on the wing.

our game plan would be perfect for him.... bombing aimlessly hoping for pack marks

When i look at forward lines i see a taller, lankier KPF with a long reach and a more dense and compact KPF. 

Tall/big wing span - King brothers, J Cameron, BB, Weid, Hipwood Danniher, Kennedy, Curnow 

Heavy - TMAC, JVR, Hawkins, Darling, McKay 

I think we have two of the same types in weid and BB and TMAC being a huge piece missing. Depending on the player the tall/long or heavy can be the roaming mobile tall. Currently, BB and Weid are not mobile at all and so Hogan would suit as that roaming tall. Also shows a clear lack in our tall KPF stocks. We are desperate for a King or Curnow. 

 

Edited August 8, 20222 yr by MrFreeze

13 minutes ago, MrFreeze said:

When i look at forward lines i see a taller, lankier KPF with a long reach and a more dense and compact KPF. 

Tall/big wing span - King brothers, J Cameron, BB, Weid, Hipwood Danniher, Kennedy, Curnow 

Heavy - TMAC, JVR, Hawkins, Darling, McKay 

I think we have two of the same types in weid and BB and TMAC being a huge piece missing. Depending on the player the tall/long or heavy can be the roaming mobile tall. Currently, BB and Weid are not mobile at all and so Hogan would suit as that roaming tall. Also shows a clear lack in our tall KPF stocks. We are desperate for a King or Curnow. 

 

curnow or McKay would be amazing imo

Remember when Collingwood were desperate for a key forward last year?

Edited August 8, 20222 yr by layzie

35 minutes ago, layzie said:

Remember when Collingwood were desparate for a key forward last year?

So they adapted their game style to suit their resources. How novel.