Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted
1 hour ago, JimmyGadson said:

I don't think a comment from an ex-coach or player such as, "they look like they've been in a heavy loading phase which is contributing to their poor performance" is giving anything away. 

Especially if it's universally known that clubs do it as so many keep saying. 

Why wouldn't it be a talking point more often if it's so relevant? 

My thoughts are that maybe it has an effect and maybe it doesn't. Every week the media dissect a game to the nth degree, you'd think they would talk about this topic more if it was such an influencing factor? They don't hold back on taboo topics, if this is that. 

It simply doesn't make sense. 

But they really don’t dissect games much at all and this is why the afl media is a useless joke of a product that will hopefully one day be overhauled/modernised. Who amongst them would you say is a good analyst?

  • Like 6

Posted
1 minute ago, von said:

But they really don’t dissect games much at all and this is why the afl media is a useless joke of a product that will hopefully one day be overhauled/modernised. Who amongst them would you say is a good analyst?

Anyone watch Lloyd on Sun footy show yesterday?

Am sure there would have been no accountability to how wrong he is/was? 
 

Posted
57 minutes ago, von said:

But they really don’t dissect games much at all and this is why the afl media is a useless joke of a product that will hopefully one day be overhauled/modernised. Who amongst them would you say is a good analyst?

There's a difference between being an expert on football and an expert at analysis and therein lies the problem with football commentators.

They may have great knowledge of the game (e.g. tactics at stoppages, defensive set ups or forward craft) but they show a lack of understanding of basic principles of data analysis and interpretation (e.g. consideration of data quality, causal direction, confounding factors). They also express common cognitive biases such as recency bias (David King ) and overconfidence bias (Dermie). This is to be expected; just as it takes years to develop a knowledge of the game so to it takes years to acquire proficiency in data analysis & interpretation.

Alas, sophisticated analysis and interpretation would make for dry media content (though the Mongrel Punt shows it's possible) . So, content makers proceed with the maxim "enrage to engage"!    

  • Like 11
  • Love 2
Posted
7 minutes ago, speed demon said:

There's a difference between being an expert on football and an expert at analysis and therein lies the problem with football commentators.

They may have great knowledge of the game (e.g. tactics at stoppages, defensive set ups or forward craft) but they show a lack of understanding of basic principles of data analysis and interpretation (e.g. consideration of data quality, causal direction, confounding factors). They also express common cognitive biases such as recency bias (David King ) and overconfidence bias (Dermie). This is to be expected; just as it takes years to develop a knowledge of the game so to it takes years to acquire proficiency in data analysis & interpretation.

Alas, sophisticated analysis and interpretation would make for dry media content (though the Mongrel Punt shows it's possible) . So, content makers proceed with the maxim "enrage to engage"!    

Surely there’s room for that in a world that is currently void of it. A bit of dry amongst the dribble. I think there’s a lot of football fans crying out for it. 

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, speed demon said:

There's a difference between being an expert on football and an expert at analysis and therein lies the problem with football commentators.

They may have great knowledge of the game (e.g. tactics at stoppages, defensive set ups or forward craft) but they show a lack of understanding of basic principles of data analysis and interpretation (e.g. consideration of data quality, causal direction, confounding factors). They also express common cognitive biases such as recency bias (David King ) and overconfidence bias (Dermie). This is to be expected; just as it takes years to develop a knowledge of the game so to it takes years to acquire proficiency in data analysis & interpretation.

Alas, sophisticated analysis and interpretation would make for dry media content (though the Mongrel Punt shows it's possible) . So, content makers proceed with the maxim "enrage to engage"!    

The art of commentary and analysis is to make the dry engaging and relatable to the novice. Employing boofhead ex-players as special comments isn't going to help them achieve this so they just go the lowest common denominator route.

Edited by Dr. Gonzo
  • Like 4

Posted
30 minutes ago, speed demon said:

There's a difference between being an expert on football and an expert at analysis and therein lies the problem with football commentators.

They may have great knowledge of the game (e.g. tactics at stoppages, defensive set ups or forward craft) but they show a lack of understanding of basic principles of data analysis and interpretation (e.g. consideration of data quality, causal direction, confounding factors). They also express common cognitive biases such as recency bias (David King ) and overconfidence bias (Dermie). This is to be expected; just as it takes years to develop a knowledge of the game so to it takes years to acquire proficiency in data analysis & interpretation.

Alas, sophisticated analysis and interpretation would make for dry media content (though the Mongrel Punt shows it's possible) . So, content makers proceed with the maxim "enrage to engage"!    

Nice to see some here have a concept of data analysis. People need to realize it's entirely possible to be a subject matter expert (i.e. an ex player) without having any of the skills required to analyze and interpret datasets 
 

Great post mate 

  • Like 3
  • Love 2
Posted
23 minutes ago, von said:

Surely there’s room for that in a world that is currently void of it. A bit of dry amongst the dribble. I think there’s a lot of football fans crying out for it. 

There is, but not on TV. TV has never been a medium that promoted deep intellectual discussion. David King and Leigh Montagna are about as deep as it gets unfortunately. Their big 4 stats are about the most detailed actual data that you are likely to see on the box. 😔

 There are plenty of interesting online sites like stats insider. If you really love data  and analysis, TV is a dead end.

  • Like 1
Posted
3 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Man. 

The legs this tosh has been given is too much to bare. 

I listened to crunch time on Saturday where Leon Cameron was part of the panel. Not once was there mention of bouncing after going through a heavy loading period from him. 

And he spoke to why we were able to respond. 

What I can't understand is why not one ex-player or ex-coach ever talks about it. And the conclusion I've come to is because IT'S SIMPLY OVERBLOWN

Perhaps there are minimal gains. 

But the way posters are going on about it in this thread is face-palm worthy. 

As I've asked before, if you or others have a better explanation for the unique shape of Melbournes 2021 season (9W's followed by a 9 game stretch of 4W-1D-4L, then 7W straight), as well as how closely their 2022 season mirrors 2021 so far, than what loading provides, I and I'm sure others, are ready to consider it.  None of the other vocal doubters have so far even attempted an explanation.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
  • Love 1

Posted
41 minutes ago, speed demon said:

 

Alas, sophisticated analysis and interpretation would make for dry media content (though the Mongrel Punt shows it's possible) . So, content makers proceed with the maxim "enrage to engage"!    

I thought that was the case until I read in their article from Fridays game this beauty - "I'd argue that Melbourne simply wanted this one more."

  • Like 2
Posted
4 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

As I've asked before, if you or others have a better explanation for the unique shape of Melbournes 2021 season (9W's followed by a 9 game stretch of 4W-1D-4L, then 7W straight), as well as how closely their 2022 season mirrors 2021 so far, than what loading provides, I and I'm sure others, are ready to consider it.  None of the other vocal doubters have so far even attempted an explanation.

 

Screen Shot 2022-08-01 at 13.43.15.png

  • Like 3
  • Love 1
  • Haha 10

Posted
3 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

I thought that was the case until I read in their article from Fridays game this beauty - "I'd argue that Melbourne simply wanted this one more."

Ha! Yes, I thought that was uncharacteristically lame. 

  • Like 2
Posted

Tony Leonard is under the radar as a commentator. Great interviewer as well. Laughed at the LJ Thin Lizzy reference.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Posted
1 minute ago, Damo said:

Tony Leonard is under the radar as a commentator. Great interviewer as well. Laughed at the LJ Thin Lizzy reference.

Me too.

Pretty spot on too - Jackson's hair isn't quite as frizzy as Phil Lynott, but I can see where he was going.

image.png.05ab30af600d04c36c8dbec5e25c54c5.png

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Posted
35 minutes ago, binman said:

I can't recall a player be8ng specifically asked about loading, so this interview by Tony Leonard with Jake Lever caught my attention.

How you interpret Jake's response will probably depend on where you sit with loading, but it is intersting nonetheless.

From 4.13.

https://omny.fm/shows/3aw-is-football/jake-lever-joins-us-from-the-winning-rooms

Yeah, that was interesting although I wouldn’t think any player would admit to loading as it is admitting to ‘excuses’ in effect. So not surprised he downplayed the inference.

Interestingly, he said Goodwin was impressed with training for 10 weeks and that the impact his been late from training to game day. Does that mean he wasn’t impressed previous to that? 

Those banked wins in the start of the year are so curious to me now; were we playing well or just better on latent talent? Did PA and GWS really need to holistically change how they play to lessen the damage? Might have been intimidation through reputation.

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Yeah, that was interesting although I wouldn’t think any player would admit to loading as it is admitting to ‘excuses’ in effect. So not surprised he downplayed the inference.

Interestingly, he said Goodwin was impressed with training for 10 weeks and that the impact his been late from training to game day. Does that mean he wasn’t impressed previous to that? 

Those banked wins in the start of the year are so curious to me now; were we playing well or just better on latent talent? Did PA and GWS really need to holistically change how they play to lessen the damage? Might have been intimidation through reputation.

My interpretation of what he said from about 3mins 40 on, was “goody always says there is a delay for the benefits from our good work at training to show on game day”  ie train hard for a month, then benefits a few weeks after that. 

“we have been training hard for a good 10 weeks” certainly interesting. Then a bit of a softener/downplay afterwards when he said “we always train hard” 

“We are a team that push the boundaries with training” also interesting. 

Edited by 1964_2
  • Like 5
Posted
48 minutes ago, binman said:

I can't recall a player be8ng specifically asked about loading, so this interview by Tony Leonard with Jake Lever caught my attention.

How you interpret Jake's response will probably depend on where you sit with loading, but it is intersting nonetheless.

From 4.13.

https://omny.fm/shows/3aw-is-football/jake-lever-joins-us-from-the-winning-rooms

I sincerely hope that discussions on ‘loading’ doesn’t get out too much into mainstream media.   


Posted
7 minutes ago, Wodjathefirst said:

I sincerely hope that discussions on ‘loading’ doesn’t get out too much into mainstream media.   

Agree. As long as us “loaders” continue to be seen as nutters, who are just part of Binman’s cult we should be safe    :))

 

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Posted
16 minutes ago, Wodjathefirst said:

I sincerely hope that discussions on ‘loading’ doesn’t get out too much into mainstream media.   

Why?

Posted
7 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Agree. As long as us “loaders” continue to be seen as nutters, who are just part of Binman’s cult we should be safe    :))

 

I wish it was that easy, history would suggest  we have to keep Binman alive.  I believe it went a bit pear shaped when another cult leader many years was crucified, a few of his followers were  not long after then also taken out (and I’m not talking about being taken out for lunch!). 

  • Haha 3
Posted
8 minutes ago, binman said:

Why?

Good question.  I expect that loading is not a ‘trade secret’ in the industry and as been suggested by others is also practiced by other teams (eg Geelong).  I’m purely guessing here- some teams would not be in a position to load because of where they are in their team building cycle / results in earlier games (eg Collingwood /Footscray).

I know I haven’t answered your question because I really can’t! I am desperately clutching at straws here with my next comment.  I just can’t imagine how mainstream media could handle it over a given period of time.  For example if they had said over the past  month or two that Melbourne was ‘loading’ and was effecting our game day performances it I guess would be viewed by others (depending on their perspectives as either 

a) poor excuse for losing games or

b) disrespectful for the teams that just beat us

And if it was reported as thus I can only imagine that Goody for example would have to say something like ‘no we are training hard at the moment but we are not losing or playing badly because we are in a loading phase’.  It would have short lifecycle (I’m guessing again)

I personally don’t have much respect for the media and I can’t see how they could maintain credible discussion for a sustained period of time.  On face value it would seem just up their alley, sprouting something contentious.  So to answer your question ‘why?’ I simply can’t!

Though I must add that when I mentioned to mates of mine who barrack for Collingwood that we only lost to them earlier in the season because we were loading, they saw me a being a bit of a nutter and a sore loser.  I am soooo looking forward to this coming Friday 

  • Like 4
Posted
46 minutes ago, binman said:

Why?

A shorter or alternate answer could be that if it is not discussed in the media, then supporters of other clubs would think that we are not that good (because of the loses that we incurred during the season proper) and are beatable.

So when we start winning again as we now have just begun, it makes winning just that little bit more sweeter - eg against Collingwood and Carlton in the next two weeks 🤞Bring it on

  • Like 2
Posted

I agree with all of the above.

I wish tbey did talk about it, as part of the footy media's job is to help fans make sense of what we are watching.

Even if they only touched on it as a potential variable, fans could take it into account when trying to make sense of why a team can go 10 zip, then say 50 50 for the next 10 games.

Fans could still reject the concept, but at the moment the narrative almost always circles back to a supposed weakness of the club being discussed- eg mentally weak, game plan worked out, complancey, lack of hunger, players not invested, drinking their own bathwater etc etc.

But leaving that aside, there is lots of intersting considerations - eg is it worth risking nor finishing top 4 by going too hard, is a particular game style disadvantaged more by fatigue than others, how do they message it, does the age of the squad matter, do some teams push through it better eyc etc.

The simple explanation of why the footy media don't discuss it is money. 

They (and the AFL) no doubt worry fans will switch off during this phase if they know the game quality will be impacted by loading.

Which it is, but it also means outcomes are more unpredictable- which is great for fans supporters non top 4 sides.

So I doubt discussing loading would actually impact the bottom line.

  • Like 2
Posted
28 minutes ago, binman said:

 

I wish tbey did talk about it, as part of the footy media's job is to help fans make sense of what we are watching.

 

I can’t imagine that’s what they are measuring when looking at whether they are successful or not. Causing emotional responses and creating discussion points that stir debate would have to be number one with a bullet. I wish they were interested in educating the fans but I don’t see it. It feels more like a soap opera than a sport at times

  • Like 4

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Friday 22nd November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force on a scorching morning out at Gosch's Paddock for the final session before the whole squad reunites for the Preseason Training Camp. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS It’s going to be a scorcher today but I’m in the shade at Gosch’s Paddock ready to bring you some observations from the final session before the Preseason Training Camp next week.  Salem, Fritsch & Campbell are already on the track. Still no number on Campbell’s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    UP IN LIGHTS by Whispering Jack

    Those who watched the 2024 Marsh AFL National Championships closely this year would not be particularly surprised that Melbourne selected Victoria Country pair Harvey Langford and Xavier Lindsay on the first night of the AFL National Draft. The two left-footed midfielders are as different as chalk and cheese but they had similar impacts in their Coates Talent League teams and in the National Championships in 2024. Their interstate side was edged out at the very end of the tournament for tea

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features

    TRAINING: Wednesday 20th November 2024

    It’s a beautiful cool morning down at Gosch’s Paddock and I’ve arrived early to bring you my observations from today’s session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Reigning Keith Bluey Truscott champion Jack Viney is the first one out on the track.  Jack’s wearing the red version of the new training guernsey which is the only version available for sale at the Demon Shop. TRAINING: Viney, Clarry, Lever, TMac, Rivers, Petty, McVee, Bowey, JVR, Hore, Tom Campbell (in tr

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 18th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers ventured down to Gosch's Paddock for the final week of training for the 1st to 4th Years until they are joined by the rest of the senior squad for Preseason Training Camp in Mansfield next week. WAYNE RUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS No Ollie, Chin, Riv today, but Rick & Spargs turned up and McDonald was there in casual attire. Seston, and Howes did a lot of boundary running, and Tom Campbell continued his work with individual trainer in non-MFC

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #11 Max Gawn

    Champion ruckman and brilliant leader, Max Gawn earned his seventh All-Australian team blazer and constantly held the team up on his shoulders in what was truly a difficult season for the Demons. Date of Birth: 30 December 1991 Height: 209cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 224 Goals MFC 2024: 11 Career Total: 109 Brownlow Medal Votes: 13 Melbourne Football Club: 2nd Best & Fairest: 405 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 12

    2024 Player Reviews: #36 Kysaiah Pickett

    The Demons’ aggressive small forward who kicks goals and defends the Demons’ ball in the forward arc. When he’s on song, he’s unstoppable but he did blot his copybook with a three week suspension in the final round. Date of Birth: 2 June 2001 Height: 171cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 106 Goals MFC 2024: 36 Career Total: 161 Brownlow Medal Votes: 3 Melbourne Football Club: 4th Best & Fairest: 369 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Friday 15th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers took advantage of the beautiful sunshine to head down to Gosch's Paddock and witness the return of Clayton Oliver to club for his first session in the lead up to the 2025 season. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Clarry in the house!! Training: JVR, McVee, Windsor, Tholstrup, Woey, Brown, Petty, Adams, Chandler, Turner, Bowey, Seston, Kentfield, Laurie, Sparrow, Viney, Rivers, Jefferson, Hore, Howes, Verrall, AMW, Clarry Tom Campbell is here

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #7 Jack Viney

    The tough on baller won his second Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Trophy in a narrow battle with skipper Max Gawn and Alex Neal-Bullen and battled on manfully in the face of a number of injury niggles. Date of Birth: 13 April 1994 Height: 178cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 219 Goals MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 66 Brownlow Medal Votes: 8

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 3

    TRAINING: Wednesday 13th November 2024

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers braved the rain and headed down to Gosch's paddock to bring you their observations from the second day of Preseason training for the 1st to 4th Year players. DITCHA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I attended some of the training today. Richo spoke to me and said not to believe what is in the media, as we will good this year. Jefferson and Kentfield looked big and strong.  Petty was doing all the training. Adams looked like he was in rehab.  KE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...