POSTGAME: Rd 16 vs Fremantle

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Still hurting from last night.

I don't love the club any less.  I've got five memberships, two of which I still get for my parents even though they aren't alive anymore, and I'll continue to get them as well.

But gee that's deflating.  I try and find positives in most games, but I'm struggling to even come up with some out of that.  

The only aspect I can see going forward for us is that we have a strong core, and one that is still coachable.  We aren't a team that has aging stars and not much coming through.  We still have Trac, Oliver, Viney, Salem, Jackson, Pickett, Rivers, Lever, Weideman, Brayshaw, Harmes etc all coming through who have plenty of football ahead of them.  I can't see Goodwin being the man to take us forward in 2021, but that is a really good group of players for whoever we get as a coach.  

But I think I'm resigned to the fact that we aren't going anywhere under Goodwin, and that the club needs to make some tough decisions about who is in the box, and who we have on our list, going forward.  It sucks to think about because we had the right idea in mind when we hired Roos - he stays for three years, then his hand picked successor picks up the reigns.  We have stability and a list that has set us for finals football for the forseeable future.

We don't have that now.  And something needs to be done.

This sucks.

[Coq au vin 755]

12 minutes ago, rolling fog said:

It's all well and good to say that we need better players, not sub par/VFL standard etc. players. 

This doesn't just happen through high draft picks and expensive trades. There simply isn't the supply of players that are both quality and available, not to mention you generally need to pay over the odds to prise players from another club. 

So the key is to develop what you have and/or draft strategically and place elite development resources and support structures around the players. 

The great sides of the last 20-ish have all done this in a sustainable way - Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, Richmond (?)

That's true moneyball, and I don't see us doing this. 

Goodwin's game plan relies on the individual brilliance of some highly touted players - Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May.

So when they stink it up or are well held there isn't the depth or game structure to adapt.  

You don’t really believe we have the talented players that Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond or Sydney have had over the past 10-15 years? Tell me you’re not serious?

[Demon Spofforth 289]

1 hour ago, Frustrated Demon said:

Is it weird that I’ve been thinking what if Ross Lyon was our coach. Could he fix us? 

Drinking my morning coffee, I thought the very same thing...

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

A system can make adequate players, who will never be stars, be very effective. Essendon 2000, they all looked like world beaters, but when that team broke up and some players went elsewhere, suddenly they looked ordinary, because they were no longer part of a well oiled machine.

[old dee 23,998]

9 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Interested in people's thoughts on this stat (if it hasn't been shared already):

I'm well past excuses, but would love to know how other teams stack up with this.  9 games in 43 days, when generally you would average 9 over 60 or so, is a tough ask.  

Oh Wise you are  trying to find reasons when the obvious has been there for two years. I keep saying that we over rate the quality of the team and FD. The results have been there for all to see. The only stat that matters is the score board. That tells us we are at best a mid level talent if things flow our way. 

[—coach— 3,496]

21 minutes ago, rolling fog said:

It's all well and good to say that we need better players, not sub par/VFL standard etc. players. 

This doesn't just happen through high draft picks and expensive trades. There simply isn't the supply of players that are both quality and available, not to mention you generally need to pay over the odds to prise players from another club. 

So the key is to develop what you have and/or draft strategically and place elite development resources and support structures around the players. 

The great sides of the last 20-ish have all done this in a sustainable way - Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, Richmond (?)

That's true moneyball, and I don't see us doing this. 

Goodwin's game plan relies on the individual brilliance of some highly touted players - Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May.

So when they stink it up or are well held there isn't the depth or game structure to adapt.  

Spot on. No good delisting half the squad and getting in a bunch of new blood if you can’t develop them beyond their current capacity.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, old dee said:

Oh Wise you are  trying to find reasons when the obvious has been there for two years. I keep saying that we over rate the quality of the team and FD. The results have been there for all to see. The only stat that matters is the score board. That tells us we are at best a mid level talent if things flow our way. 

No, I'm not.

Read my post after that.  I'm not making or finding excuses at all.  We've stunk it up two games in a row, with finals on the line, and it's inexcusable.

I was just after people's thoughts on that stat.

[spirit of norm smith 16,615]

8 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Still hurting from last night.

I don't love the club any less.  I've got five memberships, two of which I still get for my parents even though they aren't alive anymore, and I'll continue to get them as well.

But gee that's deflating.  I try and find positives in most games, but I'm struggling to even come up with some out of that.  

The only aspect I can see going forward for us is that we have a strong core, and one that is still coachable.  We aren't a team that has aging stars and not much coming through.  We still have Trac, Oliver, Viney, Salem, Jackson, Pickett, Rivers, Lever, Weideman, Brayshaw, Harmes etc all coming through who have plenty of football ahead of them.  I can't see Goodwin being the man to take us forward in 2021, but that is a really good group of players for whoever we get as a coach.  

But I think I'm resigned to the fact that we aren't going anywhere under Goodwin, and that the club needs to make some tough decisions about who is in the box, and who we have on our list, going forward.  It sucks to think about because we had the right idea in mind when we hired Roos - he stays for three years, then his hand picked successor picks up the reigns.  We have stability and a list that has set us for finals football for the forseeable future.

We don't have that now.  And something needs to be done.

This sucks.

Agree it sucks but I’m still trying desperately to hold in to hope (year after year).
 

The core issue is skills. We have very good players at getting the footy but they are also horrible decision makers and their skills let us down. Perhaps our poor foot skills is why we overhandball, we kick to pockets, we don’t use the corridor.  
 

I don’t question the effort of the team (exception was the Swans game). We win contested footy but can’t transition the footy. The Tigers transition through great foot skills and run destroy us, like most teams. The Tigers are the pinnacle and the absolute standard to aim for. 
 

I still believe the team needs “coaching “. Basic skills and decision making. It’s crucial.  I have hope that this can be fixed or we will be destined for rebuild phase 13. 

[—coach— 3,496]

4 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

No, I'm not.

Read my post after that.  I'm not making or finding excuses at all.  We've stunk it up two games in a row, with finals on the line, and it's inexcusable.

I was just after people's thoughts on that stat.

I think the question is, does the club think it’s a problem. If so, why isn’t the club working harder to reduce the apparent inequity that we face every single year. If not, then the coach needs to go because we have failed badly this year

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

8 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

No, I'm not.

Read my post after that.  I'm not making or finding excuses at all.  We've stunk it up two games in a row, with finals on the line, and it's inexcusable.

I was just after people's thoughts on that stat.

Thoughts? It doesn't explain why our thick skulled mids gather round the ball like ants around honey, then handpass it to one of the other ants, who then handlpases to one of the other ants. While the anteaters patiently wait on the outside for us to [censored] it up, leaving us out of position and them set up to whisk the ball downfield like lightning.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,956]

Some might say I'm looking for excuses (and they'd probably be right), but I honestly, I think the short turn arounds really hurt us this time around.  I think we needed to make the numbers of changes that we did because of both fatigue and unplanned injuries.  Not really even having an oppertunity to train between the Sydney debarkle and now would have made it hard to make corrections in our game plan and the players we bought it were mostly on the inexperienced side, so it was hard to expect them to come in and play to position/out of position.

Also think that we played well below our par the last few weeks, playing without confidence, like we were scared to loose and not to win.  Sydney and Freo had nothing to loose, so not so hard for them to show some late season form.

Logically, I can't see it happening based on the form that we've displayed the last two weeks, but similarly, it wouldn't surprise me if we turn it around and beat GWS and Essendon in the next two games and miss making finals by half a game to Collingwood, unless GC can pull off a huge upset and knock them off tomorrow.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Wiseblood 24,637]

6 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Agree it sucks but I’m still trying desperately to hold in to hope (year after year).
 

The one thing that is keeping me going is that core group of players.  This isn't a joke of a list, which it was under Neeld when Roos took over - there is plenty of talent there to work with.

The issue, of course, is in utilising that talent, and we need a coach who can bring the best out of them on a consistent basis.  Skills can be hidden a little at times with the right game plan.

[chook fowler 19,694]

really disappointed in our small forwards. Bedford was nowhere to be seen and Kozzie has no idea where the goals are and can't stick a tackle. Does not bode well.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, chook fowler said:

really disappointed in our small forwards. Bedford was nowhere to be seen and Kozzie has no idea where the goals are and can't stick a tackle. Does not bode well.

I disagree, but only because they are young.  Kozzie has played a handful of games and is 18 years old.  That was Bedford's second game.  Of course we would like to see more, and they had little influence last night, but that's not what has me worried.  They at least have time on their side to continue to develop.

[chook fowler 19,694]

Just now, Wiseblood said:

I disagree, but only because they are young.  Kozzie has played a handful of games and is 18 years old.  That was Bedford's second game.  Of course we would like to see more, and they had little influence last night, but that's not what has me worried.  They at least have time on their side to continue to develop.

i hope you are right. 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

11 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Agree it sucks but I’m still trying desperately to hold in to hope (year after year)

 

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

The one thing that is keeping me going is that core group of players. 

 

Is that core group of players holding on to that same hope?

How many are the phone to their managers right now?

 

If the currency is hope, the only course of action is to bring in a senior coach who can bring genuine hope, cause under the current one there is none. It's existential.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,956]

He gets regularly bashed on here, but I thought Hunt was very good last night.  Played with genuine courage, intensity and skill, which is a lot more than what I can say about a lot of our players.

Deserves to be played for the rest of the year, to show if he's worth retaining for next year.

[spirit of norm smith 16,615]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

The one thing that is keeping me going is that core group of players.  This isn't a joke of a list, which it was under Neeld when Roos took over - there is plenty of talent there to work with.

The issue, of course, is in utilising that talent, and we need a coach who can bring the best out of them on a consistent basis.  Skills can be hidden a little at times with the right game plan.

Agree our core group can take us forward and have years ahead.  I still believe that footy skills by hand and foot are the difference between us and the top group. The Tigers, Eagles, Power all carve us up with ball movement and footskills.  I can’t name one elite ball user. We hold Salem up but he has been using safe 15 metre chip kicks and lacking any real run. 

Im only recruiting the next group of draftees x 3 with elite footskills and outside run.  

[old dee 23,998]

19 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

No, I'm not.

Read my post after that.  I'm not making or finding excuses at all.  We've stunk it up two games in a row, with finals on the line, and it's inexcusable.

I was just after people's thoughts on that stat.

We stunk it up the first few games. It not just this two.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,956]

9 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I disagree, but only because they are young.  Kozzie has played a handful of games and is 18 years old.  That was Bedford's second game.  Of course we would like to see more, and they had little influence last night, but that's not what has me worried.  They at least have time on their side to continue to develop.

I agree with that balancing perspective, but I've still been disappointed with Kossie's unreliability around goals which should be his one wood for a goal sneak small forward.  In hindsight he has probably been played in a lot of games this year that he didn't really deserve to be there, but was played for the sake of his development.  Will we reap the benefits of that in years to come, I hope so.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[rolling fog 1,208]

2 minutes ago, Coq au vin said:

You don’t really believe we have the talented players that Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond or Sydney have had over the past 10-15 years? Tell me you’re not serious?

I didn't say anything about the players we have. I said Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney and maybe Richmond have been able to achieve, to varying degrees, sustainable success without consistently high picks or massive trades.

Now of course there's exceptions to everything - Dangerfield, Franklin, Lynch etc. 

But they've developed the players they have or strategically targeted players they think they can develop. 

Case in point: take the Hawthorn sides of the three-peat years, a cursory look through their squad confirms, give or take, seven players that were top 20 picks by Hawthorn, and most of those were the players from the 'super-draft' years in the mid-2000's namely Hodge, Roughead, Lewis, Rioli etc. and all developed over a period of time by Clarkson and the support structures around them. The rest are picks +30 that they've nurtured to their potential or players they've secured from other clubs and rejuvenated - McEvoy, Hale, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, *cough* Frawley.

That's moneyball.  

We seem unwilling and/or unable to do this.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Mazer Rackham said:

 

 

Is that core group of players holding on to that same hope?

How many are the phone to their managers right now?

 

If the currency is hope, the only course of action is to bring in a senior coach who can bring genuine hope, cause under the current one there is none. It's existential.

First question - no idea.  You would have to ask the players.

Second question - no idea, although that's a cop out from the players.  Most of our better ones are under contract anyway.

The currency, for me, is hope.  I'm not asking that of the players.  I have no idea what is going through their minds right now, but they are hopefully taking some of the blame for the last few games as well.  The game plan might have left is scratching our heads, but their effort did it no favours either.

 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

Worrying sign at three quarter time. Max and Viney find themselves along side each other walking to the huddle, no sign of conversation between Captain and VC. To break the awkwardness Max moves to his right to acknowlege another player. No leadership 

[Coq au vin 755]

5 minutes ago, rolling fog said:

I didn't say anything about the players we have. I said Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney and maybe Richmond have been able to achieve, to varying degrees, sustainable success without consistently high picks or massive trades.

Now of course there's exceptions to everything - Dangerfield, Franklin, Lynch etc. 

But they've developed the players they have or strategically targeted players they think they can develop. 

Case in point: take the Hawthorn sides of the three-peat years, a cursory look through their squad confirms, give or take, seven players that were top 20 picks by Hawthorn, and most of those were the players from the 'super-draft' years in the mid-2000's namely Hodge, Roughead, Lewis, Rioli etc. and all developed over a period of time by Clarkson and the support structures around them. The rest are picks +30 that they've nurtured to their potential or players they've secured from other clubs and rejuvenated - McEvoy, Hale, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, *cough* Frawley.

That's moneyball.  

We seem unwilling and/or unable to do this.

The draft is a lottery and Hawthorn won it. They had Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge, Franklin, Rioli, Roughead. They would have won premierships with those players with no coach or any coach.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Coq au vin

[Coq au vin 755]

2 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Worrying sign at three quarter time. Max and Viney find themselves along side each other walking to the huddle, no sign of conversation between Captain and VC. To break the awkwardness Max moves to his right to acknowlege another player. No leadership 

Max and Hogan exchanged a few heated words at one stage.