On 16/08/2020 at 15:53, Grr-owl said:

In the wake of the victory against the Filth, I have a few questions for the tacticians. Are we winning because:

1. The players are implementing Goody’s tactics better?

or

2. The tactics have changed?

or

3. The opposition has been poor and we are getting away with tactics that better opposition will easily counter?

On 16/08/2020 at 16:50, Adam The God said:

I reckon it's a tough one to gauge because we're not on the inner sanctum. 

To me, the way we moved the ball earlier in the season was a carbon copy of 2019. Get the ball and go long into the dangerous area 20 metres out from goal, but we didn't have the contest there, so it would break down. It was actually illogical to go there because we weren't playing two talls.

Therefore, I think it's a combination of all three. I think the coaching across 2019 and early 2020 was poor, because instead of looking for lateral options, we'd just go bang and go long inside 50, usually to an outnumber or to the disadvantage of our forward in a 1v1.

I think the players are able to set up defensively a whole lot better and because our fitness is much better, we're starting to trust that team mates are in a lateral position to receive the ball or will create a contest and then crumb when the ball hits the ground.

I think the persist bombing long was down to the coaches trusting the system. I think Goodwin has shown a Hardwick-like stubbornness to change in game tactics and instead trust that the system will right itself. Maybe it's a case of short term pain for long term gain. If you don't play to the system I've devised, this is what happens, guys.

This is where I think selection was the major blunder for Goodwin earlier in the year. Not playing two talls is inconceivable given the system is clearly, we want contests from our talls and pressure from our smalls. Well, if everyone's small, how are they go to compete in the air? It's almost as if Goodwin wasn't entirely sure what make his system work. 

Now we're getting contests in those important areas offensively and we're getting great defensive transition and setting up really well behind the ball.

I think we were setting up well behind the ball earlier in the year, but the transition from attack to defence was still being learnt. 

I reckon we're close to a break out. Problem is, this season, due to the short turnarounds, is throwing up some really strange results, so I wouldn't put it past us to throw in one or two more pathetic results. I'm hoping we can maintain focus though and back our own fitness.

This exchange from 2020 is very interesting to read again. Particularly, the selection issues and the lack of defensive transition. This part of the thread also discusses how we would move the ball long to the central hot spot to get contests from our talls in the air and our smalls at ground level.

Hitting up the central hot spot is also what Richmond did so well during 2017-2020 (get a contest from Riewoldt or Riewoldt and Lynch, and their smalls would go to work). And like us across 2021-2023, they turned defensive intercept into attack.

Reading back over the early part of this thread is fascinating. It seems our problems and Demonlanders' critiques are cyclical.

57 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

To be fair, we did this all last year. They're cherrypicking plays as usual. There's plenty of plays to the hot spot that result in nothing every game in every round.

We either didn't have the guys to bring the ball to ground or we didn't have the crumbers. We would set up a five man anchor behind the ball just as this video intimates.

Again, it is my view that we've overcorrected and should be reverting to what works for us. Even an aggressive press that is anchored by a five man defence. Playing Windsor and Lindsay behind the ball, with Langdon on a defensive wing, we could defend breakaways.

The play Longmire describes in itself is a tweak on the kicking it long to the pockets that we did for two years, but as with most things on the footy field, the most dangerous position to hit is the corridor, or in this case, that central hot spot.

Back in 2023, Collingwood would often hit that central hot spot, while we were still hitting the pockets. It meant their shots were easier than ours, and I remember at the time hoping we'd be more aggressive with that kick to a central hot spot, rather than a pocket, but we obviously felt we could defend the pocket better and then get a reset for a stoppage that we'd win 50% of the time resulting in a scoring chance. At the start of 2024, as I say, we made the change and looked more central.

There is nothing particularly enlightening about this exposition when you think about it, but I'm glad there is some stuff in the press about tactics, although unless it's posted on here I wouldn't watch it anyway.😆

The conflicting views in the media are becoming unwatchable for me. You get a lot of great insight and I actually really like Horse's take here, but you also get a bunch of blanket filler opinion pieces that don't often make much sense to the die hard fan that watches us every minute of the game.

One thing I'm getting a bit sick of hearing is that the game has passed us by. Saw a Youtube snippet on the Sunday Footy Show of Nathan Brown saying this and that we're not moving it direct and and going sideways too often and that this is down to coaching. I've seen first hand that we are trying to change this but for the most part it's not working for whatever reason (confidence, habit, disdain for the coach etc).

We then hear this stuff about kicking to the square again I think it's a good take but how many long bombs have we had into 50 these last two weeks only to be cut off? Argh

2 minutes ago, layzie said:

The conflicting views in the media are becoming unwatchable for me. You get a lot of great insight and I actually really like Horse's take here, but you also get a bunch of blanket filler opinion pieces that don't often make much sense to the die hard fan that watches us every minute of the game.

One thing I'm getting a bit sick of hearing is that the game has passed us by. Saw a Youtube snippet on the Sunday Footy Show of Nathan Brown saying this and that we're not moving it direct and and going sideways too often and that this is down to coaching. I've seen first hand that we are trying to change this but for the most part it's not working for whatever reason (confidence, habit, disdain for the coach etc).

We then hear this stuff about kicking to the square again I think it's a good take but how many long bombs have we had into 50 these last two weeks only to be cut off? Argh

Then you also hear from Champion Data that we're top 5 for ball movement this year and top 3 for fastest ball movement, which then contradicts someone like David King who doesn't have us anywhere near the top because he takes out variables to suit his own argument (that better ball movement equals ladder position).

It's typical from King, but it's really, really dishonest journalism. And it's why I stopped watching them all. They have a thesis, which they then go and support with data. If the data fit, they remove the variables or use a narrow set of stats to prove a point.

Edited April 17Apr 17 by Adam The God

So watching the build up to Liverpool v Spurs and they're tlaking about Liverpool's manager Arne Slot.

He's about to win the Premier League in his first season.

They said the sporting director chose Arne Slot to succeed Jurgen Klopp because they played a similar style, but Slot's injury record at his previous club was incredible and they said "that's why he's here [at Liverpool]".

Just as it is in the AFL, being able to roll put your best players more often than not is a huge determinant of success.

@binman and others have spoken about this for years, but the idea that a manager could have an amazing injury management record got me thinking about AFL and Goody.

They talked about how Slot had Salah doing less defending (ie pressing) and being fresher when in attack. They also discussed the less ballistic style that Slot's team plays in comparison to Klopp's Liverpool, who were basically on all the time.

Back to AFL and thinking of our brutal, contested stoppage and territory game that would grind sides down, this would have been a very taxing on the body, mentally and physically. With our shift to more uncontested possessions, less contact, we are protecting our bodies from that rigorous, combative football.

I wonder if with this new game style, we'll eventually start to see less injuries and our team last longer than others, but also be more powerful when the time comes.

They also mention the continuity in the team that Slot has played. There havenever been wholesale changes. So the players can build together.

Interestingly though, they made the point that certain players would be allowed to play in a certain way that would protect them (Salah, Alexander-Arnold) because they offer something so good that their team mates would have to cover them/offset what Salah and Trent weren't offering the team. This has implications for me on players like Fritta, Kozzy and even Trac.

Finally, they also said that Slot brought with him his sports scientist that would manage minutes, I really think this is where the AFL game is heading too, and probably already is with Burgo and now Selwyn. But science is now a huge factor in decision making.

Liverpool have built this team based on player data points across all the top leagues in world football. They identify the right talent for them based on data and analytics. It's an incredible frontier for professional sports, and I hope we can start to tap into some of this stuff to get a competitive edge.

Edited April 27Apr 27 by Adam The God

9 hours ago, Adam The God said:

So watching the build up to Liverpool v Spurs and they're tlaking about Liverpool's manager Arne Slot.

He's about to win the Premier League in his first season.

They said the sporting director chose Arne Slot to succeed Jurgen Klopp because they played a similar style, but Slot's injury record at his previous club was incredible and they said "that's why he's here [at Liverpool]".

Just as it is in the AFL, being able to roll put your best players more often than not is a huge determinant of success.

@binman and others have spoken about this for years, but the idea that a manager could have an amazing injury management record got me thinking about AFL and Goody.

They talked about how Slot had Salah doing less defending (ie pressing) and being fresher when in attack. They also discussed the less ballistic style that Slot's team plays in comparison to Klopp's Liverpool, who were basically on all the time.

Back to AFL and thinking of our brutal, contested stoppage and territory game that would grind sides down, this would have been a very taxing on the body, mentally and physically. With our shift to more uncontested possessions, less contact, we are protecting our bodies from that rigorous, combative football.

I wonder if with this new game style, we'll eventually start to see less injuries and our team last longer than others, but also be more powerful when the time comes.

They also mention the continuity in the team that Slot has played. There havenever been wholesale changes. So the players can build together.

Interestingly though, they made the point that certain players would be allowed to play in a certain way that would protect them (Salah, Alexander-Arnold) because they offer something so good that their team mates would have to cover them/offset what Salah and Trent weren't offering the team. This has implications for me on players like Fritta, Kozzy and even Trac.

Finally, they also said that Slot brought with him his sports scientist that would manage minutes, I really think this is where the AFL game is heading too, and probably already is with Burgo and now Selwyn. But science is now a huge factor in decision making.

Liverpool have built this team based on player data points across all the top leagues in world football. They identify the right talent for them based on data and analytics. It's an incredible frontier for professional sports, and I hope we can start to tap into some of this stuff to get a competitive edge.

Interesting analogy. Thanks