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CHANGES: Rd 05 vs Richmond

Diamond_Jim
in Melbourne Demons

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2 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

Jobe Watson made a good point about using Gawn as more of an offensive weapon. Obviously being a marking target is one thing, but it was more about him rucking inside 50, as opposed to TMac, and using his ruck work to try and get on the scoreboard. As Jobe kept banging on about, Gawn rucking to Petracca and Kossie inside 50 could be a real weapon.

Thinking outside the square? "Nope thats not how I want them to play" 

Won't happen.

 
10 hours ago, bingers said:

It would help if he actually directed his taps to teammates.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

This is spot on.

We haven't seen Gawn seem to hit targets with his taps for 18 months, not sure what has happened.

In the Geelong game, I'm not sure what the final number was, but at quarter time (I think it was) he had 10 hitouts with only 1 to advantage.

This year he's average 28.3 hitouts (down on his career average of 35.4) with only 8.3 to advantage (down on his career average of 11.7).

In 2018 he averaged 44.8 hitouts. (Obviously we allow for slightly less game time here too)

Just to add to this, here's a painful stat...

For hitouts to advantage %, Gawn is ranked 23rd in the league.

 

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    Just now, Lord Nev said:

    Just to add to this, here's a painful stat...

    For hitouts to advantage %, Gawn is ranked 23rd in the league.

    Ouch. He's been ok this year, but certainly a level below his best.

    His role really interests me at the moment. In 2018 in the absence of Lever, he was constantly dropping back deep and taking lots of intercept marks. These days, it seems to be like he is playing more traditionally between the 50 meter arcs. As outlined in a few posts up, given our dysfunctional forward line, I would like to see him get forward a bit more.

    • Like 2
     
    1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

    This is spot on.

    We haven't seen Gawn seem to hit targets with his taps for 18 months, not sure what has happened.

    In the Geelong game, I'm not sure what the final number was, but at quarter time (I think it was) he had 10 hitouts with only 1 to advantage.

    This year he's average 28.3 hitouts (down on his career average of 35.4) with only 8.3 to advantage (down on his career average of 11.7).

    In 2018 he averaged 44.8 hitouts. (Obviously we allow for slightly less game time here too)

     

    His ruck impact has definitely diminished the past 18 months. In 2018 he had the most hit outs and was 100 hitouts clear of second place. In 2019 he dropped to third and was over 200 hitouts behind the leaders, dropping off by over 300 hitouts off his 2018 season. The same thing happened with his hitout to advantage stats. Gawn actually attend more ruck contests in 2019 and yet his number dropped off. It seems opposition ruckmen have worked out better ways to combat him. Hopefully we see big Max rise back to being the dominant ruckman we know he can be.

    That said, it's proof that the ruckman position has little bearing on games. We've had the leagues best ruckman for 5 years, and we've made finals once from five and lose the majority of games. The coaches haven't been able to find a way to take advantage of his dominance. Either it's an indictment on them, or the position is somewhat redundant.

    Back on this game, I expect the Tigers to beat us. I think we'll give them a fair shake, but even with their poor form and injuries they have too many stars and experience not to get over the line. I expect a big game from Martin who has had a few down weeks since returning from injury.

    Edited by Lord Travis

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    Richmond have been one of the sides affected by the lock down, so they may be a bit off their tucker on Sunday.

    Clutching at straws I know.

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    51 minutes ago, Demonland said:

    https://twitter.com/7AFL/status/1278489994949091328?s=20https://twitter.com/7AFL/status/1278489994949091328?s=20

     

    I'm guessing they want him to lay a tackle. He looked clean at AFL level but definitely avoided contests, ran around on his own and offered zero defensive intent. First game in years though so not phased.

    • Like 2

    1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

     

    That said, it's proof that the ruckman position has little bearing on games. We've had the leagues best ruckman for 5 years, 

    Tell that to the Pies, who actually have the best ruckman in the game. He is better than Max and without him, IMO, the Pies would struggle. 
    Grundy starts most of their play and is the one player they can’t afford to lose. 
     

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    42 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

    Needs to stop kicking goals and learn 'Melbourne football'...

    How there is no feeder competition worth its salt to play in.

    21 minutes ago, Redleg said:

    Tell that to the Pies, who actually have the best ruckman in the game. He is better than Max and without him, IMO, the Pies would struggle. 
    Grundy starts most of their play and is the one player they can’t afford to lose. 
     

    They still haven't won a flag with the best ruckman in the comp. The GF has been won by teams with average ruckman. In today's game it is an overrated position. WE won a lot of games in 2017 and 2018 without Max and his return has not improved our win loss ratio in fact it has fallen. I would rather have a 50+ Goal Forward that a very good ruckman. Week after week his hits get taken away by the other team. IMO the main reason is he is so predictable.

    Edited by old dee

    • Shocked 1
    12 minutes ago, old dee said:

    They still haven't won a flag with the best ruckman in the comp. The GF has been won by teams with average ruckman. In today's game it is an overrated position. WE won a lot of games in 2017 and 2018 without Max and his return has not improved our win loss ratio in fact it has fallen. I would rather have a 50+ Goal Forward that a very good ruckman. Week after week his hits get taken away by the other team. IMO the main reason is he is so predictable.

    Yes true except that Grundy hits to advantage and then follows on as another mid.

    • Author

    I cannot remember a period post 1987 when we have not had ruck domination.... Dwyer, Stynes, White , Jarman,Gawn...but none have delivered a flag.

    White was arguably a better contributor than Gawn

    Edited by Diamond_Jim

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    1 minute ago, Redleg said:

    Yes true except that Grundy hits to advantage and then follows on as another mid.

    He is a way better player than Max due to his all round the ground performance. As you say his hits have variation 

    Max seems just tap it down the same way every time.

    4 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

    I cannot remember a period post 1987 when we have not had ruck domination.... Dwyer, Stynes, White , Jarman,Gawn...but none have delivered the goods.

    White was arguably a better contributor than Gawn

    Might be more appropriate to say none have delivered a flag DJ. Most GF are won by Teams Average ruckman. 

    • Author
    1 minute ago, old dee said:

    Might be more appropriate to say none have delivered a flag DJ. Most GF are won by Teams Average ruckman. 

    changed already... the flag was my meaning?

    • Like 1
    1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

    I'm guessing they want him to lay a tackle. He looked clean at AFL level but definitely avoided contests, ran around on his own and offered zero defensive intent. First game in years though so not phased.

    Goodwin won't quit until everyone is Jack Viney. Really not sure he understands the balance between contested and skillful yet.

    • Like 1

    Can we ease up on the Gawn bashing?

    I agree he hasn't been dominating in the ruck so far this year but before we all jump on him, two of our three opponents have been West Coast and Geelong, two of the best midfields in the comp. Maybe that's part of the reason his hit out to advantage stat is lower?

    Gawn's midfield/repeat effort work vs Geelong was exceptional. He leads by example in training and on the field. He's not perfect (he's a repeat offender when it comes to poor kicks inside 50) but he's not even close to one of our biggest problems right now.

    Edit: and of course, our best football this year was the first half vs Carlton when Gawn was utterly dominant.

    Edited by titan_uranus

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    21 hours ago, Dr.D said:

    Why hasn't May been trialled up forward yet? 

    what's the worst that can happen?When McDonald has been playing like his younger brother Oscar, it makes perfect sense to trial him up forward.

    IMO it makes no sense at all.

    There were signs, albeit small ones, of our defensive unit actually starting to work better together as a unit vs Geelong. There were also small signs of TMac getting some form back with his marking.

    Now is not the time to make positional changes for the sake of it. 

    Is Goodwin all there???!!!

    What on earth? "Needs to work on..."

    Goodwin mate, you don't need to play Bennell in the middle or high forward. You can play him off the bench and then deep...

    I'm pretty close to being done with this guy hey

    Just play the best players and help them get into form. It's not that hard dude. 

    I swear if AVB plays this week I'll f***** snap

     

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    2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

     

    Just to add to this, here's a painful stat...

    For hitouts to advantage %, Gawn is ranked 23rd in the league.

     

    But he is number 1 for average hitouts to advantage per game across his career. Hitouts to advantage are an average stat. I don't care if his % is 600th in the AFL if he has a better average than anyone else.

    He was way down in round 1 which given a 3 game season has impacted his 2020 average heavily. But given the matches are 20% shorter having 10 and 9 in the next 2 games is back around his elite career average.

    Max career average: 11.7

    Goldstein: 9.5

    Grundy 9.3

    Witt's 8.5

    NicNat: 7

    Martin 6.6

    Ryder 5.3

    But sure Max doesn't get enough hitouts to advantage


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