All the great teams play together for years before coming great. Covid19 meant we couldn't train together.

We have Langdon and Tomlinson on the wings who were astute selections but haven't played with the group.

Harley Bennell, Jackson, Trent Rivers all playing debut games.

Kossie will come back next week 

Lots of talent but until they get games together we will lose more often than we should. This is not Goodwin's fault.

When is it Goodwin's fault then?

Sure, some new players, but he selected them.

I get what you're saying, and I don't put it all on Goodwin, but I didn't see any leaders out there today pull the boys up when it started falling apart, or set an example with what they did, or yell at players to run to make options, shepherd etc.

I mean, they couldn't even organize singing the song properly at the end.

 

 

  On 13/06/2020 at 12:22, Wrecker45 said:

Lots of talent but until they get games together we will lose more often than we should. This is not Goodwin's fault.

When will it be Goodwin's fault then Wrecker?

The bloke has had 3+ years at the helm and his faults/flaws as head coach have not improved.

  On 13/06/2020 at 12:22, Wrecker45 said:

All the great teams play together for years before coming great. Covid19 meant we couldn't train together.

We have Langdon and Tomlinson on the wings who were astute selections but haven't played with the group.

Harley Bennell, Jackson, Trent Rivers all playing debut games.

Kossie will come back next week 

Lots of talent but until they get games together we will lose more often than we should. This is not Goodwin's fault.

Also add May, lever and Smith who've all played less than 20 games for club the combined. So that's 8 of our guys who've played less than 20 games for the club, plus training has been limited so cohesion will be an issue, but should improve quickly

Hang on, didn't we win? Goodwin is going to be the first coach in history to get sacked for winning.

 

It might not have been pretty and there may be issues but we did win, I wasn't that drunk was I?

  On 13/06/2020 at 12:22, Wrecker45 said:

All the great teams play together for years before coming great. Covid19 meant we couldn't train together.

We have Langdon and Tomlinson on the wings who were astute selections but haven't played with the group.

Harley Bennell, Jackson, Trent Rivers all playing debut games.

Kossie will come back next week 

Lots of talent but until they get games together we will lose more often than we should. This is not Goodwin's fault.

Hopefully they work it out while we are winning, that's what great sides do.

A couple of posters have asked when it will be Goodwin's fault. 

We have had a mini rebuild and not been able to train together due to Covid19.

Goodwin needs another year to be judged farely.

  On 13/06/2020 at 12:27, Lord Nev said:

When is it Goodwin's fault then?

Sure, some new players, but he selected them.

I get what you're saying, and I don't put it all on Goodwin, but I didn't see any leaders out there today pull the boys up when it started falling apart, or set an example with what they did, or yell at players to run to make options, shepherd etc.

I mean, they couldn't even organize singing the song properly at the end.

 

 

Apparently Goodwin is not to blame when we lose, when team selection or match ups don’t work, when the opposition beat us tactically, when there is no change in position or tactics to combat the other team, or when 3 defenders fly up for a mark, or when we can’t use the footy going inside 50, or basically for anything that is not right with the team.

I give up knowing what he is actually responsible for. Seems a sweet gig, when you get paid to win games of footy but nobody actually blames you when you struggle to do that. Or when you give up a 45 point lead to fall over the line because the opposition hit the post twice in the last quarter. 

Edited June 14, 20204 yr by Jaded

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:01, Wrecker45 said:

A couple of posters have asked when it will be Goodwin's fault. 

We have had a mini rebuild and not been able to train together due to Covid19.

Goodwin needs another year to be judged farely.

Unfortunately we don’t have another year. He has this year to make the best of the [censored] situation every club finds themselves in. We aren’t unique in this Covid situation. 17 other clubs are dealing with it too. 
 

Financially we can’t afford another awful season. We need memberships now more than ever given how badly this year has hit our bottom line. 
 

I am certainly not suggesting we sack him right now. But another bottom 4 finish this season and you need to start to put some pressure on his position. We have a talented list that is just not living up to their promise. Whether that’s game plan, coaching, leadership or simply rawness and inexperience, only time will tell. 

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:01, Wrecker45 said:

A couple of posters have asked when it will be Goodwin's fault. 

We have had a mini rebuild and not been able to train together due to Covid19.

Goodwin needs another year to be judged farely.

Mini re build, every club rebuilds every year. If you are talking about the inclusions this week that is a result of many factors but not a rebuild. Prepared to wager Jackson will be dropped so it would be a funny rebuild. A rebuild would have been reading the play last year and realising some favourite sons were at the end of great Melbourne careers.

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:01, Wrecker45 said:

A couple of posters have asked when it will be Goodwin's fault. 

We have had a mini rebuild and not been able to train together due to Covid19.

Goodwin needs another year to be judged farely.

I'm not sure I agree with "mini rebuild", but even so, why would we be having a mini rebuild after he's been there 5 years already?

And I'm not sure having a couple of months of not training in big groups is enough of a reason for us not fixing the recurring problems we've had under Goodwin in the last 4 years that he's been in charge.

I don't think he'll go this year unless things go as badly as last year, purely for financial reasons, but I think he's had more than enough power for more than enough time to start being judged.

 

  On 13/06/2020 at 12:22, Wrecker45 said:

All the great teams play together for years before coming great. Covid19 meant we couldn't train together.

We have Langdon and Tomlinson on the wings who were astute selections but haven't played with the group.

Harley Bennell, Jackson, Trent Rivers all playing debut games.

Kossie will come back next week 

Lots of talent but until they get games together we will lose more often than we should. This is not Goodwin's fault.

Saints have 7 new players and seem to be going ok tonight,

My fault with Goodwin is game day, plan A was going well, play A fails, what’s next to try... what’s he doing? I see little.

where are the leaders on field? why do they all seem to not know what to do or how to stem the flow?

What did he move around yesterday? Why was moved not made? 
Why does he constantly play players out of position? Jones last year off half back, Salem off half back, Brayshaw or a Jones off a wing, (why select so many in and under midfielders for roles they are not suited for constantly!!!) Smith in the back half, Jetta on tall players, etc

 

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:13, Lord Nev said:

I'm not sure I agree with "mini rebuild", but even so, why would we be having a mini rebuild after he's been there 5 years already?

And I'm not sure having a couple of months of not training in big groups is enough of a reason for us not fixing the recurring problems we've had under Goodwin in the last 4 years that he's been in charge.

I don't think he'll go this year unless things go as badly as last year, purely for financial reasons, but I think he's had more than enough power for more than enough time to start being judged.

 

Our list was terrible so Roos and co had no choice but to top it up with Cross, Vince, Bugg, Lewis, Tyson, Hibberd, Garlett etc for short term gains and then we've had some very ordinary draft years lately.

That said, 19 of the 22 who played against the Cats in 2018 are still on the list. Only Frost, Tyson and Lewis have gone.

I don't think personnel is the biggest issue, I think it's the fact that we didn't have any cohesion at any stage last year, so this year is pretty much a clean start. 

The forwards and backs probably need a bit of time given the changes, but the mids have played a lot of footy together and added experienced players on the wings. And a lot of the poor errors aren't so much game plan but lack of footy smarts and awareness. 2 guys off the street should be able to work together at AFL level with basic communication and discipline.

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:28, Gorgoroth said:

My fault with Goodwin is game day, plan A was going well, play A fails, what’s next to try... what’s he doing? I see little.

where are the leaders on field? why do they all seem to not know what to do or how to stem the flow?

What did he move around yesterday? Why was moved not made? 
Why does he constantly play players out of position? Jones last year off half back, Salem off half back, Brayshaw or a Jones off a wing, (why select so many in and under midfielders for roles they are not suited for constantly!!!) Smith in the back half, Jetta on tall players, etc

 

Agree on developing and coaching up more smart leaders.

The team should be able to shift tempo smartly and to have some personnel move around for fresh match ups, but developing a plan B with a whole new way to move the ball and for players to move is incredibly difficult. I don't know how many teams actually do it.

Also not sure about those payers you've named out of position. It was logical to try Jones at half back, ageing mids have had good success using their smarts across half back for years/decades probably. Salem's been a half back for a long time now, he's one of the leagues most reliable kicks in that role. Gus was getting blitzed out of the centre last year so they tried the wing, eventually got him back on ball, he's now playing a small part of the game on the wing but mostly on ball. Jetta is a deep defender in a zone defense, you play that way and sometimes he'll get left on a tall. Smith forward is a pipe dream based on sitting in the goal square for one preseason game, all his attributes point to a very good defender if developed.

One big problem we have is that we have so few versatile players.
Of yesterdays forward line the only one you'd trust down back is Fritsch who's had plenty of goes there. Melk and Jones could go on ball.
The mids picked really are mids outside of Trac going forward and Oliver resting forward.
Harmes could move from the backline but someone then has to take his spot. Same for Salem.

We just don't have a lot of skilled and athletic players who can rotate around the ground.

 

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:13, Lord Nev said:

I'm not sure I agree with "mini rebuild", but even so, why would we be having a mini rebuild after he's been there 5 years already?

 

Do you think we we should stand still? After the loss to West Coast it was clear we needed to improve to be the best.

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:56, Wrecker45 said:

Do you think we we should stand still? After the loss to West Coast it was clear we needed to improve to be the best.

Didn't say we should stand still, just said I don't agree that we've had a "mini rebuild".

 

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:34, DeeSpencer said:

Our list was terrible so Roos and co had no choice but to top it up with Cross, Vince, Bugg, Lewis, Tyson, Hibberd, Garlett etc for short term gains and then we've had some very ordinary draft years lately.

That said, 19 of the 22 who played against the Cats in 2018 are still on the list. Only Frost, Tyson and Lewis have gone.

I don't think personnel is the biggest issue, I think it's the fact that we didn't have any cohesion at any stage last year, so this year is pretty much a clean start. 

The forwards and backs probably need a bit of time given the changes, but the mids have played a lot of footy together and added experienced players on the wings. And a lot of the poor errors aren't so much game plan but lack of footy smarts and awareness. 2 guys off the street should be able to work together at AFL level with basic communication and discipline.

Just think it's strange to say the problem is cohesion, but it's not the coach's fault when he not only picks the team, but is in charge of them every day. Giving Goodwin a massive get out of jail free if we're saying the way the team plays isn't his responsibility.

 

  On 13/06/2020 at 12:22, Wrecker45 said:

All the great teams play together for years before coming great. Covid19 meant we couldn't train together.

We have Langdon and Tomlinson on the wings who were astute selections but haven't played with the group.

Harley Bennell, Jackson, Trent Rivers all playing debut games.

Kossie will come back next week 

Lots of talent but until they get games together we will lose more often than we should. This is not Goodwin's fault.

At last ...some measured comments! 

  On 13/06/2020 at 21:00, Red and Blue realist said:

Also add May, lever and Smith who've all played less than 20 games for club the combined. So that's 8 of our guys who've played less than 20 games for the club, plus training has been limited so cohesion will be an issue, but should improve quickly

That's right.   That's it exactly.

Some think we are closer to a cup,  than we really are.  Now 2020 is a different season,  so anyone could fluke one.  But that is not the way to build a team/list to stay top-line for the next 6/7 years.

 

We have to do this for the longer term,  to be a big side for the next handful +,  of years. We have to do it the right way.  We don't want more J/Watts coming thru, from mismanagement.  or Blease, Gysberts, Mclean, on & on.

There is a wrong way and a right way.  And mostly it all revolves around disciplines;  and patience.