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Jack Viney a Liability?

Simon Port
in Melbourne Demons

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7 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Now you're getting a bit silly.

Why so? I would have thought you would be interested to see if Viney got better or worse as the season progressed. I'd be interested in the other Mids mentioned as well. At least we could whip them all equally then.

Or are you only interested in half the facts?

 

Edited by dworship

 
3 minutes ago, dworship said:

Why so?

 

Provided you with numerous sources after you asked, then you still try to find ways to doubt it.

Just now, Lord Nev said:

Provided you with numerous sources after you asked, then you still try to find ways to doubt it.

To quick for me.

"I would have thought you would be interested to see if Viney got better or worse as the season progressed. I'd be interested in the other Mids mentioned as well. At least we could whip them all equally then".

"Or are you only interested in half the facts?"

Yes you did provide your sources, it was instructive and requires further and better particulars.

 
2 minutes ago, dworship said:

To quick for me.

"I would have thought you would be interested to see if Viney got better or worse as the season progressed. I'd be interested in the other Mids mentioned as well. At least we could whip them all equally then".

"Or are you only interested in half the facts?"

Yes you did provide your sources, it was instructive and requires further and better particulars.

You're welcome to post some sources that counter my argument that Viney is poor at delivering the ball inside 50.

And just to clarify, delivery inside 50 isn't goal accuracy, nor is it disposal efficiency (which has already been pointed out numerous times as a useless stat anyway).

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Absolutely, but it's a thread about Viney so the main focus has been on him. As mentioned in other posts, Clarry and Gus were both also terrible at delivery forward.

I love Jack. He's the type of player that makes you proud that he plays for your club, but that doesn't mean everything about his game is beyond reproach. Bleeding red and blue doesn't mean you escape reasonable criticism for weaknesses in your game that can hurt the team.

 

Spot on mate, i agree with everything you say. Lets hope there are more positives than negatives with JV this year..

    • Like 1

    15 hours ago, Simon Port said:

    The Roar posted a recent article about the Predictions for Melbourne for 2020. It went on to say that we have a surplus of inside mids and too many of the same type of player, specifically targeting Jack. "Jack Viney must have a question mark on his future in the modern game. He's as one-dimensional a player as there is in the AFL, and there are others on the list that perform his main skill of extraction better. He's been demoted from he captaincy. He's also treacle-slow and can't kick. Concerns." Do you think Viney's lack of break away speed since his foot injuries and poor disposal efficiency are major concerns? He is only suited to an inside midfield role and hasn't performed at a high level for a number of years now (I do understand he's had injuries). Thoughts?

     

    This topic took five hours from when we finished picking on a few of the homophobic Clubs to wrestle for their bottom position, to "start on" our newly ordained Vice Captain............. shame.. 

    13 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

    I recall that win we had against WC in Perrh back in 2017 when we were serverly undermanned with our on ball brigade and a gut busting effort from Jack Viney won us so much ball at the stoppages and around the ground through shear grunt work that kept us in the game until Pederson and T Mac's last quarter, last minute heroics finally got us over the line over there.

    I don't mind that kind of one dimensionalisim - just keep forging on forward.  When he is fit, Jack is an absolute bull and particularly if we have a midfield of other fit bulls like Trac, Oliver, Brayshaw, AVB, Jones, Harems etc, there will be no stopping them.

    Balls Jack also cleaned up Hurn in that last quarter agree with everything you said above just surprised you forgot about his mid air shirtfront! A fit Viney is a gun anyone doubt that look at this game and the 2 MCG finals in 2018 after an extended lay off - watch out everyone full Pre season and ready to go

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1

    Greg Williams was slow and one dimensional too.

    Viney has something rare and that cannot be manufactured: true grit.

    BTW I had a look at The Roar piece. The bloke who wrote it has 'expert' next to his name. Who's ever heard of him before this?

    I am backing Jack to tear The Roar a new one.

    • Like 3
     
    15 hours ago, rjay said:

    If I was Sydney Stack I would be looking over my shoulder this season.

    He got a half fit Jack...

    I reckon Jack may have a long memory.

    I have being saying the same thing to every Richmond supporter I know.

    Really rate Sydney Stack but I don’t envy him. The hardest player in the league is coming after him.

    41 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

    You're welcome to post some sources that counter my argument that Viney is poor at delivering the ball inside 50.

    No, I agreed he needed to improve his delivering the ball inside 50 based on the Herald Sun articles you quoted. The articles you used however, only gave the Stats for less than half the year and for only the first part of the year. I thought it would be great to get a picture of any improvement (or not) by comparing the later half of the year. It's become obvious you don't have that info.

    And just to clarify, delivery inside 50 isn't goal accuracy, nor is it disposal efficiency (which has already been pointed out numerous times as a useless stat anyway).

    You've stated the above plenty of times and I appreciate you trying to reinforce your opinion by repetition. I can be a bit thick and need someone like your learned self to help me fully understand.

    You've stated that the "Retention inside 50" stat is a much better measure of Viney's poor delivery inside 50.

    Is this stat based on direct kicks to opposition players where they mark the ball?

    Also, do the stats include forward entries via handball?

     


    6 minutes ago, dworship said:

     

    The kick retention stat is retaining possession from a kick inside 50m.

    So it measures if a kick inside 50 is going to one of our own players or not.

    Just now, Lord Nev said:

    The kick retention stat is retaining possession from a kick inside 50m.

    So it measures if a kick inside 50 is going to one of our own players or not.

    Goes to one of our players or is retained by one of our players?

    Trying to get a picture of; does the ball land short or go overhead vs someone like Dawes where the ball hit him in the hands all the time but he couldn't retain it.

    1 minute ago, dworship said:

    Goes to one of our players or is retained by one of our players?

    Trying to get a picture of; does the ball land short or go overhead vs someone like Dawes where the ball hit him in the hands all the time but he couldn't retain it.

    Not sure it makes a massive difference tbh, but given the use of the word "retained" as opposed to "marked" then I assume it doesn't mean they have to cleanly mark it.

    3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

    Not sure it makes a massive difference tbh, but given the use of the word "retained" as opposed to "marked" then I assume it doesn't mean they have to cleanly mark it.

    I understand our Mids didn't deliver the ball as well as we would have liked (certainly in the first half of the year based on the info).

    I keep wondering what part the forwards played in this stat?

    Regardless, I think Viney will have a cracker of a year baring injury and that's based on seeing him at training and in the game against Adelaide.

    I think Viney summed up his past two years in the interview while at Maroochydore. He said it was great to be able to surf again. Now that doesn't have anything to do with stats but it is informative.

    1 hour ago, Wrecker45 said:

    I have being saying the same thing to every Richmond supporter I know.

    Really rate Sydney Stack but I don’t envy him. The hardest player in the league is coming after him.

    I really want to see another entry to the "Jack Viney made me cry" thread.

    Actually, I want more than one.

    Edited by dworship

    • Like 1

    I have read the article, its ok, some points are valid some are just ridiculous and looking for bites. 

    When its all said and done, its up to the club and the players to make people these people look silly and for them to make us proud, i for one cannot wait for teh day where i can get stuck into certain people who have enjoyed ridiculing us for a long time. 

    3 hours ago, dworship said:

    I keep wondering what part the forwards played

    Sorry for editing your post the way I have dworship but read on and you'll understand why ...

    The forward line plays a huge part and last year as a collective they (the forwards) were for the most part dysfunctional.  The worst I can remember and I go back a ways.  We changed the forward line coach mid season.

    There was very little movement,  no real multiple leads (at pace),  they often refused to play in front (a pre-requisite for a forward) and the kicking for goal was woeful.

    Plus,  very little defensive pressure,  no chasing with intent ... again,  as a collective we were sub par up forward.

    As a consequence our midfield was deliberately pressed even harder by the opposition as the opposition knew that our forward line wasn't functioning.  They took advantage.

    Petracca put in but that's it apart from Fritsch later on.  But it could be argued that the opposition were happy to concede possession to Petracca as he was often played as a high half forward ... his subsequent possessions mirrored the possessions obtained by our midfielders ...  i.e. kicking the ball towards a dysfunctional forward line.

    Our midfield (and Petracca) were therefore reduced to booting the ball inside 50 without any purpose. 

    That's how I saw it and I often stand behind the goals when viewing games 'live'

    So,  in effect,  our midfield was rendered inconsequential as a result of a non functioning forward line.  Therefore neither Oliver,  Brayshaw,  Harmes,  Viney et al impacted games to any great extent.  Gawn as well as his hit outs to advantage often ultimately eventuated with the ball coming back sailing over his head.

    Edited by Macca

    • Like 2

     Can’t believe this is where the negativity is being directed. It’s not even round 1 yet.  Let’s look at how much better we will be in 2020 and bring back the respect. 

    35 minutes ago, dworship said:

    I understand our Mids didn't deliver the ball as well as we would have liked (certainly in the first half of the year based on the info).

    I keep wondering what part the forwards played in this stat?

    Regardless, I think Viney will have a cracker of a year baring injury and that's based on seeing him at training and in the game against Adelaide.

    I think Viney summed up his past two years in the interview while at Maroochydore. He said it was great to be able to surf again. Now that doesn't have anything to do with stats but it is informative.

    100% the forwards play a part in that, although interestingly players like Harmes, Petracca and Melksham did really well in the kick retention stat delivering it to the same forwards as Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw.

    I'm with you in backing Viney for a much better year this year, and going off the presentation Mahoney gave at the end of last year I'm expecting a fair bit of improvement both in the delivery forward and the finishing in front of goals.

     

    • Like 1

    Honestly, it's one of thos debates where no resolution is possible.  So, perfect for online discussion and even better for clickbait articles!

    Those in the 'Viney is cooked' corner can easily point to his poorer periods under an injury cloud, lacking the zip that made his previous aggression effective, and the fact that that he is apparently only an on-baller in a team that is apparently stacked for on-ballers.

    Those in the 'Viney can deliver' camp, all you have to do is point to his pre-injury capabilities as a crunching forward with both break-away and pursuit speed and initiative, highly alertness and habit of pressure.

     

    Personally, looking at it from an 'either way' perspective,

    It is not disaster if Viney only recovers to the point of being a solid foot soldier in the midfield - it is important to remember our gun midfielders are still relatively young, with Brayshaw, Petracca and Harmes and Salem all 24 and Oliver still, astonishingly, only 22. It's really important to have depth of hard workers and hard bodies over the course of a long season so Viney can still make a valuable contirubiton even if he doesn't get back to his best.

    On the other hand, top-level Jack Viney that those with any kind of memory will recall is a freak'n gun footballer. He also gets a lot more involved in scoring, forward pressure, even throwing int he occasional contested mark.  Long story short, fit Viney gets a lot more involved int he game all over the ground and while still definitely an onballer he is much less one dimension than his recent problems have forced him to be.

     

    • Like 3

    He can be a gun so long as he doesn't try to do too much when in possession.

    Get the ball and get rid of the ball to advantage.

    By now he should be experienced enough to play this style without causing us to lose possession due to trying to be too tough.

    Perhaps it is a legacy of trying to hard to lift the team when we were performing poorly.

    Now that he is no longer captain he can revert to his game before he was elevated and injured.

     

    • Like 2
    2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

    100% the forwards play a part in that, although interestingly players like Harmes, Petracca and Melksham did really well in the kick retention stat delivering it to the same forwards as Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw.

    Sorry, but that's just a backhanded way to have a pot shot at  Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw. Given our woes at the start of the season and the inability for anyone (at the moment) to find the stats for the 2nd half of the year, I don't know how  to look at that statement. Have you found a source that gave the stat you're quoting for  Harmes, Petracca and Melksham. In any case, my guess (something not supported by evidence) is that most of the time Harmes, Petracca and Melksham received from Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw. As I said I can't substantiate that.

    I'm with you in backing Viney for a much better year this year, and going off the presentation Mahoney gave at the end of last year I'm expecting a fair bit of improvement both in the delivery forward and the finishing in front of goals.

    Agreed, he is still only 25 and his next 2 years should be his best, barring misfortune, and haven't we had enough of that!

     

     

    Edited by dworship
    Addition

    10 minutes ago, dworship said:

     

    Mate, seriously. From the article I linked for you, then quoted for you:

    "And while James Harmes (59 per cent retention), Tom McDonald (57), and Christian Petracca (48) have been sharper than most kicking the ball to forward targets, it’s been more problematic when hard nuts Angus Brayshaw (33) Clayton Oliver (30) and Viney (24) have been in possession."

    And we're talking about kicking inside 50, so you're point "Harmes, Petracca and Melksham received from Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw" doesn't make any sense. We're judging the delivery inside 50.

    I'm not sure what makes you think that in the second half of the year, where we won less games than the first, we suddenly drastically improved our inside 50 kicking. Not sure how many more facts and sources I can provide before you get it, or if you're just being deliberately obtuse now.

     

    Nice if he can add lateral movement to his repertoire.

     

    Other than that, Goodwin needs to add a string to his bow.  Forward half pressure forward etc..

     

    TiGeR sticking fat with Viney...Frost...Kent...Stef Martin...Howe...Dunn...Watts and any other gold we have underrated as simpletons.

    20 hours ago, rjay said:

    If I was Sydney Stack I would be looking over my shoulder this season.

    He got a half fit Jack...

    I reckon Jack may have a long memory.

    100% how many blokes has viney lined up in his time he gets one perfect knock from a no body and we are ready to throw him under the bus? I don’t think so. 


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