Key forwards - let's go shopping!

[drysdale demon 4,837]

20 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Dusty $1.2m x 7 years. 

Lynch $1m x 7 years.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/north-melbourne-expects-dustin-martin-to-turn-down-its-offer-and-sign-a-new-deal-at-richmond/news-story/f9c898d7191c28689f018b0c62d3f30d

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/tom-is-a-tiger-richmond-officially-lands-big-fish-tom-lynch-on-sevenyear-deal/news-story/9a7408a6a68acd4ad83727cc44927930

You left out 2 key words Estimated and Expected, the reporters have no idea what the contracts are worth.

[Little Goffy 14,646]

What I wonder about is whether the original plan was to have a whole mix of different sized and style of players in our forward line, giving us continous scope to experiment and mismatch. It was something I remember looking forward to, thinking about how many of them were highly mobile.

In approximate order of total mass of carbon atoms -

Brayden Preuss, Tom McDonald, Tim Smith, Sam Weideman, Joel Smith, Aaron Vandenberg, Mitch Hannan, Christian Petracca,

Bayley Fritsch, Jayden Hunt, Jake Melksham, Alex Neal-Bullen, Jeff Garlett, Jay Lockhart, Charlie Spargo.

 

Mix and match as you like from that, and you can get several different sets that each provide a good combination of lead-up marking, contested marking, all-purporse bullocking, pressure acts and crumbing. That last one, the opportunistic crumbing ans something-from-nothing snaps, actually looks like the weakest link at the moment rather than anything provided by Patton or Brown, for example.

 

As a side note: Hogan at Fremantle is currently delivering about 60% of what he was bringing to Melbourne in his last season with us. This isn't an necessarily an endorsement of the May/KK pick up, but it suggests it was no giant blunder when we chose to move Hogan on.

Anyway, personally I think we're better off looking at the draft this year. We don't want to drift into a situation of having multi-year gaps in elite young talent, and you never know when you'll get your own Selwood or Rioli to  ice the cake at the right moment.

I still think we'll be in very short supply for top-end draft picks for some years to come.

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

27 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

In approximate order of total mass of carbon atoms -

Brayden Preuss, Tom McDonald, Tim Smith, Sam Weideman, Joel Smith, Aaron Vandenberg, Mitch Hannan, Christian Petracca,

Where is the Hawkins, Lynch, Cameron, Kennedy in that group? 

The clubs with serious flag claims have a legitimate big dog starting in the square. 

Do you want to win a premiership or a repeat of ‘88 and 2000. Must get the pieces of the puzzle right.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

2 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Where is the Hawkins, Lynch, Cameron, Kennedy in that group? 

The clubs with serious flag claims have a legitimate big dog starting in the square. 

Do you want to win a premiership or a repeat of ‘88 and 2000. Must get the pieces of the puzzle right.

Collingwood?

[Little Goffy 14,646]

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Where is the Hawkins, Lynch, Cameron, Kennedy in that group? 

The clubs with serious flag claims have a legitimate big dog starting in the square. 

Do you want to win a premiership or a repeat of ‘88 and 2000. Must get the pieces of the puzzle right.

Lynch who has never played in a final.

Cameron who has kicked a whopping 7 goals in 5 finals.

Hawkins who, going back over his finals career, has kicked 2,1,1,1,2, 5,1,1,2,0, 3,2,2,0,1, 0,2,2,0. Golly. That's four zeros, six ones, seven twos, and a total of two out of nineteen games where he has kicked more than a pair in a final. So he is twice as likely to kick none in a final than kick a signifcant score. You'd think he'd get the hang of it now that he's played almost as many finals as Weideman has had games total. Come to think of it, Weideman actually has a better finals record than Hawkins.

Leaving just Josh Kennedy of your examples, which is a bit like saying 'a midfield will do better if it has a Pendlebury-type player in it, for example, Pendlebury'. No doubt Kennedy is one of the modern greats of the game, and certainly a more accurate kick than the 1.3 (or does Hawkins count as out on the full?)you just dished out.

Meanwhile, Jack Riewoldt is no gorilla, stands at 193cm weighing 92kg, and I don't think Richmond really regret going into the 2017 grand final with him as their only real tall target, what with having 11 separate goalkickers on the day.

Our current forward line is weak and it would be good to have an extra tall, no doubt. But it is also true than an in form Tom McDonald and Sam Weideman can obviously be a potent attacking pair. They would also, oddly enough, be among the tallest (194cm and 195cm) and and heaviest (100kg and 97kg) forward combinations of recent years.

You'll look even more silly about your 'don't repeat 2000' when people remember that the Demons went into the 2000 grand final with David Neitz and David Shwarz, both strongly built and highly effective classic key forwards. And along the way in those finals, in the qualifying final it had been Green, Powell and Bruce who provided most of the goals while the Davids combined for 3, and even in the glorious shootout over North it was Famer (8), Powell (3) and Robertson (3) who led the way.

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

20 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

Our current forward line is weak

Well at least you got that right.

You’re missing half the tale about big dog key forwards. They completely change the complexion of a side, straighten it up, instil confidence in the crumbers and secondary talls around them ... and in the midfield brigade upfield as they set up attacks. The ones with presence do anyway. They bring goals and STRUCTURE. 

Re the 2000 GF - I loved the Ox but he was cooked late in his career and just filling out a jumper.

[Adam The God 30,431]

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

Collingwood?

Collingwood haven't won a flag, but you could certainly argue Cox fills this need.

[ignition. 1,477]

6 hours ago, bobby1554 said:

Kelly signed a long term deal with GWS this year

DAMN! Thanks for popping my bubble

[ignition. 1,477]

6 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

When you have two key forwards who have combined for a total of 15 goals in their 18 appearances by round 11 ... read those numbers again ... it’s time to start the conversation. 

What’s with this blinkered thinking that you can only address one area of need in an off season? Particularly when you are likely to finish bottom six, a number of avenues open up. There are FA’s, pick swaps, trades - a host of ways you can skin a cat.

I don't think the key forwards are the problem. It's field position and kicking efficiency going inside 50. Furthermore, what about a quality small crumbing forward, we do indeed lack there.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

4 minutes ago, A F said:

Collingwood haven't won a flag, but you could certainly argue Cox fills this need.

Collingwood are a flag contender this year, which is what I was responding to.

You could also argue that Cox doesn't fill this need for them at all. They have DeGoey, but IMO Cox is far from being a quality key forward

[Adam The God 30,431]

Don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily think you need a dominant KPF to win a flag, but it certainly helps.

[Gunna’s 2,104]

Tom Boyd?

[illbarto 379]

And here was I thinking we needed less people in our forward line!

I think if our current forwards learnt how to make space for each other they would find their jobs a lot easier.  That and of course kick the damn thing between the big sticks.  Both of these I see as coaching failures and that's where our priorities should be in regards to forward line recruitment, a new forward line coach

[SFebes 4,884]

2013,14,15 Roughead

2016 Boyd

2017 Riewoldt 

2018 Kennedy 

[monoccular 17,578]

One vital piece in the whole jigsaw puzzle is to determine what really has gone wrong with Tom McDonald this year, and is whatever the problem may be is it remedial?

[John Demonic 5,859]

29 minutes ago, SFebes said:

2013,14,15 Roughead

2016 Boyd

2017 Riewoldt 

2018 Kennedy 

2019 O. McDonald

Greatest coaching masterstroke of all time.

[Little Goffy 14,646]

16 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

You’re missing half the tale about big dog key forwards. They completely change the complexion of a side, straighten it up, instil confidence in the crumbers and secondary talls around them ... and in the midfield brigade upfield as they set up attacks. The ones with presence do anyway. They bring goals and STRUCTURE.

 

There's no arguing with magic.

Is Harry Potter available as a category B rookie?

[Ethan Tremblay 30,994]

9 hours ago, bobby1554 said:

Kelly signed a long term deal with GWS this year

 

2 hours ago, ignition. said:

DAMN! Thanks for popping my bubble

It was only two years, OOC end of 2021. If he wants to extend past that long-term, the offer is there ready to go. But as it stands he’s only contracted until 2021, so not long-term but he has the option to extend his current contract if he wishes. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Ethan Tremblay

[DV8 2,271]

14 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

I will add that Weideman would benefit immensely from the presence of a new key forward in the team. As would TMac. Both suddenly get heat taken away from them and TMac is released to use his engine as a roaming forward with license to lead as high up as the wing. It's a no brainer.

We can solve BOTH the key forward and small forward issues at this trade/draft period but we might have to get a little creative.

Higher than that. MB.  All the way out to the Defensive Arc.   Essentailly playing as a winger. 

I'd rather Weide Preuss and tsmith starting in the talls spots.  In a way, I see TMc playing like aGoodes.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

13 hours ago, SFebes said:

2013,14,15 Roughead

2016 Boyd

2017 Riewoldt 

2018 Kennedy 

But for one set shot on goal last year, it would've been that dud Cox.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

[Mel Bourne 4,534]

The AFL app/site has just put a quite a lengthy compilation of all of the best goals of the season thus far. It was kind of shattering to watch goal after goal with every club being represented (Carlton four times ffs) with an inspired moment in front of the goals except for you know who. About three minutes in we get a little glimpse of Preuss snapping his first goal against the Swans to wholesome reactions from commentators and crowd alike...and that’s it. Five friggin’ minutes and one goal from the Dees. It’s this kind of stuff that brings back that old feeling. The forgotten ones. The non-contenders. The....f$&@ing participants of the Melbourne Football Club. 

We need a spearhead. Desperately. 

 

 

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

But for one set shot on goal last year, it would've been that dud Cox.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Cox is a man mountain who offers far more than his goal returns. 

He is also improving season upon season having not even played the code before. The fact they even made a GF with him underlines his value. He was BOG in the preliminary final!

Edited June 7, 2019 by Demonland
Edited out personal attack. Poster is on last warning.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

42 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Cox is a man mountain who offers far more than his goal returns. 

He is also improving season upon season having not even played the code before. The fact they even made a GF with him underlines his value. He was BOG in the preliminary final!F

How'd he go in the big dance? Wasnt Weid BOG in the final vs Geel last year?

Cox's career average is 9 disp and just over a goal per game

I agree with the concept of structure missing in our forward line. This is more critical than getting Cameron or the like.

Your arguments to sell the farm for a key forward would be better described as the Swiss cheese position.

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

16 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Your arguments to sell the farm for a key forward would be better described as the Swiss cheese position.

14 goals in 18 games COMBINED from your two “key” forwards by round 11. 

There’s no argument on the need for one. That is totally unacceptable regardless of any mitigating factors. How much lower do you wish to set the bar?

No need to sell the farm for anyone but you do have to get creative and sometimes you do have to give in order to get.

No calculated risk, no reward.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Matsuo Basho

[Moonshadow 17,677]

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

14 goals in 18 games COMBINED from your two “key” forwards by round 11. 

There’s no argument on the need for one unless you’re being wilfully blind. That is totally unacceptable regardless of any mitigating factors. How much lower do you wish to set the bar?

No need to sell the farm for anyone but you do have to get creative and sometimes you do have to give in order to get.

No calculated risk, no reward.

They are not alone in having a poor season. No one is denying this. By your logic we'd look to replace every player bar Gawn and Salem this year.

We are just starting to get our best team on the park and Weid showed some glimpses last week. It's a team game. Better delivery, less crowding, increased fitness is the key. Talent doesn't just disappear. 

PS. Thanks for the second personal attack in as many replies to me ?

Edited June 7, 2019 by Moonshadow