I didn't think it was possible that anybody could put a positive spin on having so many in rehab, i.e. an interrupted preseason.

I was wrong.

We often make a big deal when a player finally gets a good full preseason under their belt which is why I am worried that we have so many players that are not going to be getting a good full preseason under their belt.

More so because we went deep into the final series in 2018 and we hope to do the same in 2019. I just hope we will still have legs in late September if we are there.

13 minutes ago, Demonland said:

We often make a big deal when a player finally gets a good full preseason under their belt which is why I am worried that we have so many players that are not going to be getting a good full preseason under their belt.

More so because we went deep into the final series in 2018 and we hope to do the same in 2019. I just hope we will still have legs in late September if we are there.

I'd like to think we'll be fine, as I would rather the players get themselves right for the season ahead than rush back and collapse in a heap by about Round 17.  

Having said that, we do have plenty of players who are in the rehab group and that's never a good thing.  Maybe it's simply the price we pay for getting deep into the finals, when before the players had an extra month or so up their sleeve to get themselves right?

Just now, Wiseblood said:

I'd like to think we'll be fine, as I would rather the players get themselves right for the season ahead than rush back and collapse in a heap by about Round 17.  

Having said that, we do have plenty of players who are in the rehab group and that's never a good thing.  Maybe it's simply the price we pay for getting deep into the finals, when before the players had an extra month or so up their sleeve to get themselves right?

I was in no way suggesting that we rush anyone back. Agree that it's the price we pay for a longer season. Other clubs like the Cats, Swans and Hawks have managed multiple consecutive long seasons so we need to manage our playing list to be able to go the distance again and again if we want sustained success.

We had a lot of end of season ops and having viewed the rehab group running laps the other day in stifling heat I'm not worried about their fitness. Also not concerned about a player like Clarry not training with the main group at this stage. He seems very fit based on what I observed and no doubt a player of his quality can slide into the main group at any stage without skipping a beat.

It's not surprising we have more in rehab given we went deep into September.  We haven't seen this problem for years and we are not accustomed to it.

Having said that, it is still not good to have so many players in that situation.  But as Andy noted, the ones who were in the rehab group weren't losing fitness.  Lever is probably the only one who has to come back from injury fitness wise. 

Every year I note this, ( and there is no scientific basis for it, just years of observation):  For every week after the new Year that a player is not in full training, you can subtract a week from when they will be available in season proper. Or to put it another way, players need 3 months of full pre-season training.

The only positive out of our lengthy rehab group is that 90% are able to run unhindered, which is clearly the most important part of pre-season. 

I think that's what the bearded man means when he says their pre-seasons are 'not interrupted'. Even if by definition of the word, they are. 

15 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Amazing.

You've just defined the term 'interrupted pre-season'. 

Sorry expert but I asked, interrupted pre season is where they are off legs and it impacts their fitness base

The craft sessions etc are there to refine their skills, if we have 2nd and above year players who can't handball, kick or don't understand the game plan, then you need to ask why they are still on the list

Most in the rehab wiil rejoin after Xmas with theif fitness base intact, which is the main aim of the preseason, to get miles into legs.

Hence why James Harmes was worked over in the running last Friday to the point of dry retching and telling me that was the hardest running session he had done at the club, so not interrupted?

Of course you wouldnt have seen that as you are safely sniping from a distance

43 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Sorry expert but I asked, interrupted pre season is where they are off legs and it impacts their fitness base

The craft sessions etc are there to refine their skills, if we have 2nd and above year players who can't handball, kick or don't understand the game plan, then you need to ask why they are still on the list

Most in the rehab wiil rejoin after Xmas with theif fitness base intact, which is the main aim of the preseason, to get miles into legs.

Hence why James Harmes was worked over in the running last Friday to the point of dry retching and telling me that was the hardest running session he had done at the club, so not interrupted?

Of course you wouldnt have seen that as you are safely sniping from a distance

If they have had off season surgery, then it's an interrupted pre-season.  Fact.

Actually have listened to quite a few expert opinions from

AFL fitness gurus off season & they would probably disagree with you ....if they are not getting the running into their legs then you have a valid point so Lever will be def having an “interrupted pre season “ but other than that and as most are players with 3 or more preseasons under their belts ...we are not looking too bad...I am happy to take the opinions of posters that are actually at training & will reserve my judgement until I see the players “up close & personal” ...until then I can’t see the point in continually deriding  certain posters ...I mean what is the point ....don’t read them or get down to training yourself & post your “first hand” opinions...just saying !!!

 @Satyriconhome

As someone who has grown up playing and watching this game from a young age, it is a plain ol' fact that if you miss any component of a pre-season training, it is deemed an interrupted one. 

The word 'fitness' is a broad one and you're referring strictly to a single component known as cardiovascular endurance. 

Off-seasons (aka pre-pre-seasons) and pre-seasons are the only times of the year in which a player can improve and make gains in every component of fitness required to play the game. These components consist not only of aerobic and anaerobic fitness but also components such as muscular strength and power, coordination, flexibility, agility and more. 

We have players who have had surgery on shoulders, knees, feet and more. All of which means they'll be restricted in what they can do. Harmes and Oliver as an example will be well behind in upper body strength and power and will not be able to make the same gains and improvements had they not had surgery. Thus, an interruption in their programs.

Viney and Petracca with foot and and knee surgery have similarly not had the same head start in their running as those who have not had surgery. Thus, an interruption. 

It remains to be seen whether or not the number of players we have in rehab/missing parts of the program will have an impact come the start of the season. Whilst I agree that the majority are at least able to do most of the running part of pre-season, you've cast a blind eye over pretty much every other component of fitness which at this level, are all extremely important given how competitive the game is.

Edited December 10, 20186 yr by stevethemanjordan

6 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 @Satyriconhome

As someone who has grown up playing and watching this game from a young age, it is a plain ol' fact that if you miss any component of a pre-season training, it is deemed an interrupted one. 

The word 'fitness' is a broad one and you're referring strictly to a single component known as cardiovascular endurance. 

Off-seasons (aka pre-pre-seasons) and pre-seasons are the only times of the year in which a player can improve and make gains in every component of fitness required to play the game. These components consist not only of aerobic and anaerobic fitness but also components such as muscular strength and power, coordination, flexibility, agility and more. 

We have players who have had surgery on shoulders, knees, feet and more. All of which means they'll be restricted in what they can do. Harmes and Oliver as an example will be well behind in upper body strength and power and will not be able to make the same gains and improvements had they not had surgery. Thus, an interruption in their programs.

Viney and Petracca with foot and and knee surgery have similarly not had the same head start in their running as those who have not had surgery. Thus, an interruption. 

It remains to be seen whether or not the amount of players we have in rehab and missing parts of the of the program will have an impact come the start of the season. Whilst I agree that the majority are at least able to do most of the running part of pre-season, you've cast a blind eye over pretty much every other component of fitness which at this level, are all extremely important given how competitive the game is.

It's just logic, but you've articulated it very well.

Very well written post ...I enjoyed reading it ...you will forgive me however if I value the opinions of people involved now with a plethora of medical expertise at their fingertips etc....but hey ..as everybody says ...it’s an opinion based forum...I will be extremely surprised if at least 90% of those rehab players are not available by Rnd 1 ....we shall see . On a sad note ...Sam Docherty has just done his ACL again....tragedy !!!!

26 minutes ago, ProDee said:

It's just logic, but you've articulated it very well.

Still trying to make up for believing Salem was an ectomorph early days... 

6 minutes ago, Deestar9 said:

Very well written post ...I enjoyed reading it ...you will forgive me however if I value the opinions of people involved now with a plethora of medical expertise at their fingertips etc....but hey ..as everybody says ...it’s an opinion based forum...I will be extremely surprised if at least 90% of those rehab players are not available by Rnd 1 ....we shall see . On a sad note ...Sam Docherty has just done his ACL again....tragedy !!!!

Jeeze that's bloody unlucky. Reminds me of The Ox's luck.

19 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Still trying to make up for believing Salem was an ectomorph early days... 

I formally give you permission to "let go".

1 hour ago, Deestar9 said:

Very well written post ...I enjoyed reading it ...you will forgive me however if I value the opinions of people involved now with a plethora of medical expertise at their fingertips etc....but hey ..as everybody says ...it’s an opinion based forum...I will be extremely surprised if at least 90% of those rehab players are not available by Rnd 1 ....we shall see . On a sad note ...Sam Docherty has just done his ACL again....tragedy !!!!

No-one is saying that most, if not all, will be ready to go round one. 

What they're saying is that when you're in rehab, or on a modified or reduced program, then your preseason has indeed been interrupted. 

Some players boast at the end of the preseason that they've "done every session".  I'm sure you've also heard the boast.  They know it sets them up for a good year.  It's not to say that those on a reduced preseason can't also have a good year, however, they can't make the same claim.  You know, because it was "interrupted". 

Edited December 10, 20186 yr by ProDee

As big Max has said, you can't win a flag over the preseason, but you can certainly lose one

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Still trying to make up for believing Salem was an ectomorph early days... 

Saw an article on Robert Shaw and he described Salem as the most skillful of the players that he coached at Brighton Grammar and that he could turn a game in 15 minutes. Kelly and Watts were others he coached. Pretty big wrap on Salem and suggests he has improvement left in him.

awful news for carlton; docherty did his knee again

Just saw docherty has done his acl again. Terrible news but I really hope we let Lever take as long and slow as necessary so something similar doesnt happen to him

16 minutes ago, Deefiant said:

Just saw docherty has done his acl again. Terrible news but I really hope we let Lever take as long and slow as necessary so something similar doesnt happen to him

You couldn't get much slower (cautious) than Docherty in his recovery. He could've played this season but Carlton didn't bother as they were so woeful. Had he been right to go round 1, Docherty's recovery would've been 16 months. This recurrence was just rotten luck rather than being rushed back to play. Feel for the bloke.

25 minutes ago, Deefiant said:

Just saw docherty has done his acl again. Terrible news but I really hope we let Lever take as long and slow as necessary so something similar doesnt happen to him

This seems to be a case of rotten luck rather than rushing a player back.

16 hours ago, Roger Mellie said:

You couldn't get much slower (cautious) than Docherty in his recovery. He could've played this season but Carlton didn't bother as they were so woeful. Had he been right to go round 1, Docherty's recovery would've been 16 months. This recurrence was just rotten luck rather than being rushed back to play. Feel for the bloke.

 

16 hours ago, Demonland said:

This seems to be a case of rotten luck rather than rushing a player back.

I think it would be remiss of any medical department to blame it completely on rotten luck. Although luck may play a small component, the current recurrence of acl's seems to be particularly high. Especially with acls that seem to be innocuous (simple change of direction) rather than a heavy knock on the knee.

From the reports it seems like docherty's knee was innocuous and I would be disappointed if the Carlton medical department went through the exact same recovery program as the first time with acl's. I would be looking at increasing recovery time, building up more strength in other parts of the knee, taking mandatory breaks. 

This is from a completely uneducated opinion. And west coast took am extra long approach to the recovery with niknat but he still did his. Although they did say that they were planning to him breaks throughout the year which didnt seem to happen.

I'm sure we will be conservative and give Lever all the time he needs to get back to 100%.  Further, I was delighted to hear that he will be going to the States to do the same post operative recovery / strengthening program as Petracca.  No doubt luck plays a significant part with these things, but with the right precautions, you can at least reduce the likelihood of further bad luck.

On 12/10/2018 at 2:55 PM, stevethemanjordan said:

 @Satyriconhome

As someone who has grown up playing and watching this game from a young age, it is a plain ol' fact that if you miss any component of a pre-season training, it is deemed an interrupted one. 

The word 'fitness' is a broad one and you're referring strictly to a single component known as cardiovascular endurance. 

Off-seasons (aka pre-pre-seasons) and pre-seasons are the only times of the year in which a player can improve and make gains in every component of fitness required to play the game. These components consist not only of aerobic and anaerobic fitness but also components such as muscular strength and power, coordination, flexibility, agility and more. 

We have players who have had surgery on shoulders, knees, feet and more. All of which means they'll be restricted in what they can do. Harmes and Oliver as an example will be well behind in upper body strength and power and will not be able to make the same gains and improvements had they not had surgery. Thus, an interruption in their programs.

Viney and Petracca with foot and and knee surgery have similarly not had the same head start in their running as those who have not had surgery. Thus, an interruption. 

It remains to be seen whether or not the number of players we have in rehab/missing parts of the program will have an impact come the start of the season. Whilst I agree that the majority are at least able to do most of the running part of pre-season, you've cast a blind eye over pretty much every other component of fitness which at this level, are all extremely important given how competitive the game is.

Actually I'll end by saying, prefer to go with what the players and fitness staff are telling me, do get some absolute [censored] from some players but there are others I trust to give me a straight answer to a simple question, so as I have said would be surprised, barring any mishaps between now and then, to see only 2 or 3 still in rehab post Xmas