1 hour ago, Win4theAges said:

The players aren't immune to the criticism Jonesy has to step it up next year as does Viney and the rest of the leadership group. One good thing that will come of all this criticism is that it can all turn in 1 pre season shift the tide can turn but everyone has to buy into it.

If this were Real Madrid or Barcelona and I know it's not, Mission would have been gone 10 times over at the end of 2017. 

Does Mission go and look at other sports departments around the world NFL EPL NBA club's to have a look at it's training and fitness structures this is where the club should be placing it's money, this is what's costing us big time.

Or is he placing his faith in all the success he's had in training our highly successful olympic athletes?

 

 

The only constant is you whining

I speak to the players and they have complete faith in the whole fitness/rehab/medical staff

Of course the staff visit other facilities in fact we have a couple of staff who are that highly regarded in their field, they are invited to present in other forums

Miuch that it pains me to agree with him, @Sir Why You Little is right on the money, the only hurdle left is the mental one

Edited September 24, 20177 yr by Satyriconhome

Having faith /belief in something does not as such validate any underlying ability/credential/leading-edge capacities.

It simply means folk 'believe' 

The walking/limping/constrained wounded on exhibition might undermine the voracity any and all should have to acceptance as good enough.

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Having faith /belief in something does not as such validate any underlying ability/credential/leading-edge capacities.

It simply means folk 'believe' 

The walking/limping/constrained wounded on exhibition might undermine the voracity any and all should have to acceptance as good enough.

What the hell does all that mean??

5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

What the hell does all that mean??

Read on context of Satys post above.

Mentioned players faith in Misson.

My point being that of itself is no justifiable qualification of his ability/ output.

The judgement of his ability is predicated upon results, not players thoughts.

36 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Read on context of Satys post above.

Mentioned players faith in Misson.

My point being that of itself is no justifiable qualification of his ability/ output.

The judgement of his ability is predicated upon results, not players thoughts.

Dave Misson has a great CV

The MFC doesn't and hasn't for decades

the problem isn't Dave. It comes from within....

4 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

The only constant is you whining

I speak to the players and they have complete faith in the whole fitness/rehab/medical staff

Of course the staff visit other facilities in fact we have a couple of staff who are that highly regarded in their field, they are invited to present in other forums

Miuch that it pains me to agree with him, @Sir Why You Little is right on the money, the only hurdle left is the mental one

What do you expect the players to say? They've got no idea it's a complete shambles? results is what we want to see fitness department completely f'd it's operation this year the heat is on were onto him don't worry I'll be revisiting this topic in 12 months time.

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Dave Misson has a great CV

The MFC doesn't and hasn't for decades

the problem isn't Dave. It comes from within....

CVs are about where you've been. He's been here a while . Dont see much to rave about. Still players struggling.

30 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

CVs are about where you've been. He's been here a while . Dont see much to rave about. Still players struggling.

They struggle above the shoulders

Goodwin has a long summer ahead

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

They struggle above the shoulders

Goodwin has a long summer ahead

Two different issues i suspect. Both need dealing with.

On 23/09/2017 at 10:13 AM, Rusty Nails said:

Am i clutching at straws here or do others see this as a significant issue going forward?  Do we need to rethink the Misson partnership and consider other options or no?

I reckon it's totally fair to review. They should, really, every year. I don't think it's fair to say he's gotta go though. Everyone knows our problem was discipline, injuries and the big one... youth. We won 12 games, and many of them we ran down leads late. I think we're ok, but we need that one more year into the players that are doing the heavy lifting. Tracca particularly. Olly to some degree as well.

6 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Two different issues i suspect. Both need dealing with.

It's all connected. That is the point

The players have to all be on the same page, otherwise it doesn't matter what Misson does 

The players have to WANT to get better as one

Looking at the main injuries:
Viney - that's on the physio's.

Watts - think the poor form post injury was mainly in his head or related to a poor base
Gawn and Watts - back related hamstrings annoy me, poor management

Salem - still not fit enough

Had a few other soft tissues - Jones, Tyson, Patty McKenna but not exactly a raft of them
Had a lot impact injuries this year
Still had too many stress injuries but every team has them and it was bad but not horrendous 

Salem, Petracca, Oliver, Oscar McDonald are all young guys who were regular members of the best 22 without having the endurance to do it, so a lot depends on how much they can improve before judging the overall team fitness. Especially Petracca and Oliver.

I got the feeling our game running tailed off towards the end of the year and I think Misson said that in the season review chat he had with Burgs. It was an even split between young players getting tired and injured players not at peak fitness. Unfortunately we didn't get to see how the team went after a bye week freshen up in to a final.

 

10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It's all connected. That is the point

The players have to all be on the same page, otherwise it doesn't matter what Misson does 

The players have to WANT to get better as one

Sounding very holistic there SWYL 

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Having faith /belief in something does not as such validate any underlying ability/credential/leading-edge capacities.

It simply means folk 'believe' 

The walking/limping/constrained wounded on exhibition might undermine the voracity any and all should have to acceptance as good enough.

That must have been a very enjoyable Shiraz

28 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Sounding very holistic there SWYL 

It's what is missing

At present we have "Line in the Sand Games" that last a few days

Nothing gets locked in as a bottom line standard. 

3 hours ago, Win4theAges said:

What do you expect the players to say? They've got no idea it's a complete shambles? results is what we want to see fitness department completely f'd it's operation this year the heat is on were onto him don't worry I'll be revisiting this topic in 12 months time.

I'll make sure I tell him you want a word with next year if it doesn't improve, next time I chat to him???

Gee you make me laugh, you have no idea

 

8 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

The only constant is you whining

I speak to the players and they have complete faith in the whole fitness/rehab/medical staff

Of course the staff visit other facilities in fact we have a couple of staff who are that highly regarded in their field, they are invited to present in other forums

Miuch that it pains me to agree with him, @Sir Why You Little is right on the money, the only hurdle left is the mental one

Saty, when will you learn that the players aren't going to criticise people within their organisation to outsider nobodies? 

Theres this guy called the Weapon....and he also has some info about some ....mmmm......i dont know, i think theyre just supplements or something.............yeah well, apparently they work and....

20 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

 

If players are recalled too early after injury, who's call is that?

 

In Viney's case, Viney was surely a big part of the answer.  But obviously others too, like Misson, would have had voices in this.  I wonder if any of these others tried really hard to push the point that Viney that was rushing his return (surely everyone could see he was)?   I wonder, was there some sort of collective denial going on?

I remember a weather forecaster telling me that after abuse for a few wrong calls, forecasters had a dog of a time resisting the urge to say anything at all doubtful was "probable rain".   People making calls that have an element of prediction about them respond to perceived pressure, and are driven by the wishes of those they answer to, she told me.  People deciding when a player can resume may well be under that kind of pressure, especially in an environment like ours, on the brink of a long-anticipated rise back up the ladder.

If that sort of bending-to-pressure has been going on at MFC this year, we need to unpick that pressure.  whatever it consists of, surely it rests with Goodwin as head Coach to moderate the unwise decision-making of those who appear to have tried too hard to please.  He should be telling them to follow their own judgment, fearlessly, professionally...  The real worry would be if Goodwin himself is the source of the pressure that club officials and players appear to have been responding to with bad decisions.  Goodwin has come in with a bit of an aura as Roos' man, but what if he hasn't got the wisdom needed to manage all of this anticipated rise?  

So I wonder what Goodwin is putting out as the culture of the club.  Players returning from injury too soon seems a new feature of our team.  Watts and Salem going back to Casey and hitting people looked to me like two guys trying to adjust - and for sure it was not in line with their natural instincts or natural strengths.  Were they trying to win back favour in what they understood was the wanted way?  Do we see a misguided club-wide pattern of trying to be tougher regardless?   We really have gone to the MRP far more frequently since Goodwin has been in charge - has that been just coincidence?  I wonder what Misson would be saying privately about the reasons behind these too-early returns, and about his role in making those decisions? 

From the Clarence St end I watched North players repeatedly manhandle an obviously lethargic (read, no energy) Watts, every time he went for the ball, and Watts looked to me pretty [censored] off that the umpires gave him no protection.  Not that he shouted and so on - he just looked at the umpires, every time as the North players went away.  In my thinking at the time, I was unimpressed that the coach did not move him, or at least get someone in to support him by blocking, evening up the contest, etc.  Bloody-mindedness, upstairs, I thought.  In the end, leaving him to flounder and lose was as though the selection mistake bringing Watts back underdone, and failure to deal with a problem during the game,  was deflected/defended by scapegoating Watts; and I couldn't see what was gained by publicly dumping on him afterwards either - it was as though something OTHER than getting the best out of Watts (and the team) was the over-riding concern.  

Do we have a Mark 2 of Nield starting to show?  

Maybe Misson will choose to leave, as often happens under a change for the worse in management.  Certainly Misson must be feeling a huge lot of frustration and loss of credibility over the second half of our season.  He must be very dirty on the pressure added to the injury issues by the number of suspensions.  Maybe this will have just been a big learning year for everyone, no long term harm done.  People in the club must be asking a lot of hard questions.  But we started the year dreaming of emulating the Bulldogs from last year - in the event it has been the unravelling Bulldogs of 2017 that we have mirrored most.

@robbiefrom13   Some interesting views there..  I definitely think some were well underdone in returning.  And it does very much go to who gets the 'call' on this but I would hope that those in charge of conditioning , fitness, injuries etc would speak the loudest. No sense putting a less than capable player on the field no matter what is 'ability ' is.

I just have to think Misson is somehow involved , and somewhat culpable ; not alone, but part of the problem.

Something isnt quite right at the Dees

11 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Saty, when will you learn that the players aren't going to criticise people within their organisation to outsider nobodies? 

Chap, when you speak to the players as often as I do, and they know you are not going to broadcast what they say, you get some interesting observations

Had a few honest appraisals 

And as I have said before unless you are stood next to me when I speak to them, at other times besides training as well, you have no idea whatsoever of what is being said

The Misson thread is yet another of the hardy annuals we get on here

 

 

19 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It's all connected. That is the point

The players have to all be on the same page, otherwise it doesn't matter what Misson does 

The players have to WANT to get better as one

Does anyone know (for a fact) how many clubs employ sports psychologists?

Are we missing out on something that could "make the difference"?    I know we did have one (?or more) at one stage in the early days of ND and I understand that he didn't believe in them as a concept and they were dispensed with.  

Not sure if we have explored or used any since, but it could make sense as a lack of self belief seems endemic and surely must contribute to the all too frequent chokes (NB Freo, North x 2, final round).

Edited September 25, 20177 yr by monoccular

Just now, monoccular said:

Does anyone know (for a fact) how many clubs employ sports psychologists?

Are we missing out on something that could "make the difference"?    I know we did have one (?or more) at one stage in the early days of ND and I understand that he didn't believe in them as a concept and they were dispensed with.  Not sure if we have explored or used an since, but it could make sense as a lack of self belief seems endemic and surely must contribute to the all too frequent chokes (NB Freo, North x 2, final round).

I would be looking into it if it was up to me...

23 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

I'll make sure I tell him you want a word with next year if it doesn't improve, next time I chat to him???

Gee you make me laugh, you have no idea

 

You go girl 

Ah, Hindsight Bias.

Hogan is rushed back in a couple of weeks after breaking his shoulder and plays a blinder, his best match for the season if not best ever for the Dees.

Watts is given week after week above and beyond what everyone was expecting, comes back in, plays like rubbish and is eventually dropped to the seconds after continuing to play like rubbish.

But instead of looking at the Hogan case as a fantastic example of injury management and rehab. and a gold star to our fitness and medical staff (and to Jesse himself), we're taking the Watts (and similar) case as supposed evidence that the players were "brought back too soon" and somehow from that, even though we have no actual evidence of anything, "it's Misson's fault".

The logical fallacies and cognitive biases in this thread would be jaw-dropping if they weren't so predictable. Still, it is the off-season, but 6 more months of this ...