Glaring weakness in defence

[jnrmac 20,061]

1 hour ago, deestar said:

Oscar really cops a lot of crap and I think it's unjustified. He's played 33 games and is 21 years old and people expect him to be dominating monsters week in week out. He's made pretty good strides and is generally pretty good by foot if you actually step back and to the side and look at the facts. If he fills out he is going to be an absolute monster size and strength wise. Key posts don't always materialise with a magic draft pick ... They need to be developed.

Where has anyone said Oscar should be dominating? Yours is such a gratuitous and condescending post. We all know OMac is young and hasn't played many games. You don't need to be Capt Obvious to work that out. He may well turn out to be very good. I personally don't think so but I am not writing him off. He doesn't have any traits that mark him out as a decent defender. He wouldn't be in the team if we had a better option.

The fact is we have a leaky defence and we are woeful at contested marking and defending one on one. We won't go anywhere until we fix it. And if OMac doesn't make it, we don't have much coming behind him to plug the gap.

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

Lever won't play on the bigger forwards. He will intercept mark but Tmac would be better back in defence and get a couple of decent tall forwards.

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

30 minutes ago, TGR said:

A year ago, who would have predicted Tom McDonald would be playing AA footy... as a forward?

Probably as important to our defense as Rance for Richmond.  But when a guy can just go forward and play the way he has, in a year where Hogan has stagnated, and Kent has gone backwards; we have no choice to bank on McDonald forward.

Those stats don't surprise.

 

North took a risk by playing 3 tall forwards.  They don't clunk it, then defenders run it out easy.  They gambled.  They won.

 

We just need to stick fat with Frost (who should keep taking them on) and Oscar.  If Watts doesn't impact forward, he will be the next one thrown back IMO.

I like Frost. I just wish we had an older player out there with him

he is still raw

[deestar 159]

18 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Where has anyone said Oscar should be dominating? Yours is such a gratuitous and condescending post. We all know OMac is young and hasn't played many games. You don't need to be Capt Obvious to work that out. He may well turn out to be very good. I personally don't think so but I am not writing him off. He doesn't have any traits that mark him out as a decent defender. He wouldn't be in the team if we had a better option.

The fact is we have a leaky defence and we are woeful at contested marking and defending one on one. We won't go anywhere until we fix it. And if OMac doesn't make it, we don't have much coming behind him to plug the gap.

I think the only thing un called for this the general demeanor of your reply. I was participating in what a I see written within.

Apologies for the opinion, and perhaps you should consider making insulting comments towards other club supporters.

[Little Richard 6,262]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Did we get rid of Lynden a year to early?

I don't think so, he was often exposed by big forwards.

We probably haven't paid enough attention to this need over the last few years, because we've been too busy building a midfield from scratch.

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

12 minutes ago, Luther said:

I don't think so, he was often exposed by big forwards.

We probably haven't paid enough attention to this need over the last few years, because we've been too busy building a midfield from scratch.

Yes you could be right. It's just that our Backline was a bunch of Raw Kids and Neville Jetta. I suppose that is mostly Bernie Vince's fault...

[Earl Hood 6,086]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

We were out marked because North waited behind the pack with the wind and in front of the pack with it.

Windy footy 101.

The effort looked ok- the energy levels low .

I'm not about to set myself on fire over this weeks loss.

We got out scrapped in the last half and allowed them to run down the clock.

Very ugly game-too many stoppages.

Very hard to stomach Biff. Three quarter time a 6 point deficit, 30 minutes yet to play with a 30 km/h tail wind, a finals spot on the line for us, for Norf, nothing of note, yet we fall short yet again! Not good enough and I suspect it will cost us a spot in the final 8, whereas a win may have secured a top 4 position, in a year where anyone in the finals could win it! And worst of all we may be the underperforming bunnies who let the Dorks into the 8 and given their recent form, they could win the bloody thing. 

[deanox 9,915]

57 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We are 17th for contested marks. There are no excuses. We aren't very good at it.

Having Gawn and Hogan out for most of the year has really hurt us in this department. 

 

But looking at it subjectively, we are the 6th highest scoring team in the competition; the lack of marking hasn't hurt  our ability to hit the scoreboard. 

[Deestar9 1,618]

We didn't lose because of our defence...we did not play well & in the last qrt we got smacked in clearances & pressure round the ball & quite frankly we played dumb football...I was there &

the only real highlights for Melb was Clayton Oliver &

Max Gawn ....quite simply we did not adapt to the conditions...we move on & hopefully get it done against GWS...if we don't then just not good enough...Melb out of everyone has had important injuries & a pretty tough draw given our travel & when it has occured ...so we are still in the 8 and as Goodwin said ...it's not where we are now but where we are at the end of Round 23...our destiny is in our own hands ...

[Pates 9,660]

Hard to argue with the OPs main point. I think the thing is OMac should be our first key defender. He's still too midsized, gets monstered by the big forwards with long reach. To be honest he kind of reminds me of Zac Dawson. 

I think there's potentially a place for him as our 2nd tall defender but both he and Frost aren't big enough to take on the big forwards. 

Its well summed up that in the other positions we are quite well represented. Jetta and Hibberd are having close to AA years and Hunt continues to do what he does best with his run and dash. But when it comes to balls coming into the 50 for the big forwards I'm always worried. 

I think we need to look at bringing someone in, obviously Lever appears to be the best option out there. 

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

Lever is a beauty but I'm not sure how he'd go one-out against Ben Brown, Joe Daniher etc? Are there any statistics on how much time he's actually spent on the number 1 forward? I was under the impression Talia is doing that job?

The contested marking is infuriating. The Hawks did it so well the other night. It seems they are experienced enough to block/protect/not all get hands to the exact same ball and spoil one another and leave no one down. None of our talls are strong enough overhead. Gawn's a foot taller than most so of course he takes a couple. Watts and Hogan are useless overhead. I thought Hogan was supposed to be a contested marking beast?

 

[deanox 9,915]

1 hour ago, Watts Jurrah Dunn? said:

...None of our talls are strong enough overhead. Gawn's a foot taller than most so of course he takes a couple. Watts and Hogan are useless overhead. I thought Hogan was supposed to be a contested marking beast?

 

Hogan is a god contested mark, when he has a bit of form behind him.  He isn't the strongest overhead; that is Weeds thing though.  Weed attacks the ball high info the air.  Once he gets the pace of the game he'll complement well. 

[Dee-licious 1,949]

JUmp onto the Future Stars Facebook page and see their segment on the top 10 defenders under 24. OSvar was rated 10th (behind Barass, Melican, Plowman, McStay) Frost 5th (behind Marchbank, Andrews, Hamling, Lever). Gee it would be nice to get Lever and that back like looks like it will be able to hold together for a decade. 

[JV7 2,351]

11 hours ago, jnrmac said:

We are 17th for contested marks. There are no excuses. We aren't very good at it.

Doesn't help when your AA ruckman doesn't play for 12 weeks & full forwards only played 8 games.... 

[jnrmac 20,061]

2 hours ago, JV7 said:

Doesn't help when your AA ruckman doesn't play for 12 weeks & full forwards only played 8 games.... 

No it doesn't. But a lot of teams have dominated us with contested marks around the ground to control the footy. CMs aren't just in the fwd 50. Watts can't take a CM to save his life. Trac, Gwn, Jetta and TMac are the few that I fell comfortable with in one on one marking.

 

2017 Marks 1521 (Ess 1st 1876), CMs 163 (Ports 1st 258) Hogan 41 Gawn 29

2016 Marks 1791, CMs 244 (yearly total) Hogan 149, Gawn 91

 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by jnrmac

[Fat Tony 5,228]

The opening post is on point in that we have obviously had an issue stopping the key forwards this year. But the real question is if we need to recruit in outside players at the end of the year or stay the course.

The coaches have clearly put their faith in Oscar McDonald and believe he will develop into a 200 game defender. I think he has shown enough that he will make it as a player, but while I think he will be better again in 2018, he needs to put on size and I am not sure we won’t be having similar conversations again next season.

Also, we need to factor in Weideman into our thinking. If Weideman can develop into a good AFL forward, Tom McDonald will be able to switch back to defence because a forward line of Hogan, Weideman, Watts and Tom McDonald would be too tall. Would we be having this discussion if Tom McDonald played in defence all season? I doubt it.

In saying all this, I would still target Lever because he is such a good prospect and because clubs generally can get out of contract players for unders. However, I think both Oscar McDonald and Weideman will develop into AFL players and they probably need to play at the AFL level to get there, so I am not in the camp that says we are desperate to recruit a key defender.

[beelzebub 23,370]

FTony. The likes of Weid and Oscar may well evolve into the very types of players we need. But upon they you can't rely solely. Injuries etc mandate you have a squad of players available. 

Even that aside what do wd do in the interim ? Twiddle thumbs and watch goals kicked ? Sounds like a hoot.

Its about a team. Getting the best players into that team. Some are home grown, some imported. Some come in and better the stocks already there, some come in and make others surplus or redundant.

I really couldn't care who they are. They just need to be best available.

We haven't enough elite stock. We need more. Need it now.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Our zone needs to be adaptable so that a player like Frost can be permanently on an opponent like Ben Brown, how Jetta was left to cover him so many times is bewildering.

[poita 3,902]

The biggest problem with our defence is Sam Frost. We all admire the way he takes the game on, but he turns the ball over far too often and consequently is 50 metres out of position when the ball is kicked back over his head. It happened on numerous occasions on Saturday and either Brown was left on his own or Jetta was forced to cover. If you are playing on the opposition's best forward, you have to sacrifice your game and stay close.

Oscar, on the other hand, is the sort of player you can build a defence around because he is (almost) always where he is supposed to be. Yes, he needs to get stronger and tougher in the contest so he can take the number 1 forward each week, but that will happen over time. Jetta is similarly dependable, but unfortunately he isn't another four inches taller.

That said, we certainly didn't lose because of the back line. We lost because our midfield collectively gave it up in the last quarter.

[beelzebub 23,370]

17 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Our zone needs to be adaptable so that a player like Frost can be permanently on an opponent like Ben Brown, how Jetta was left to cover him so many times is bewildering.

And if we notice theres a reluctance to adapt you can bet the opposing coach does ( and did )

Brown killed us.....and we let him do it. 

[Fat Tony 5,228]

36 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

FTony. The likes of Weid and Oscar may well evolve into the very types of players we need. But upon they you can't rely solely. Injuries etc mandate you have a squad of players available. 

Even that aside what do wd do in the interim ? Twiddle thumbs and watch goals kicked ? Sounds like a hoot.

Its about a team. Getting the best players into that team. Some are home grown, some imported. Some come in and better the stocks already there, some come in and make others surplus or redundant.

I really couldn't care who they are. They just need to be best available.

We haven't enough elite stock. We need more. Need it now.

We don't have much option this year but to back in Oscar McDonald and Frost. Tom McDonald is needed up forward, particularly with Hogan out injured.

I am optimistic that both Weideman and Oscar McDonald will be better again next year, but I am not against bringing in high quality key position players. In saying this, I am not in favour of recruiting in depth key position players like Jackson Trengove or Sam Reid.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

We are a middle ranked defence.  We are 9th in the league for points against.  But we've found a couple of stats that allow us to say we are the worst.  We're not.

And guess what.  The usual suspects are using a few stats that relate to the whole backline to isolate Oscar and to a lesser degree Frost to again state their views.  No mention of Jetta, Hibberd, Hunt, Salem, Lewis (our backline general and on field coach), Vince or anyone else who has played there.  The problem is Oscar folks, you heard it here first.

No mention of a midfield that isn't applying pressure, no talk of zones, just a couple of stats to freshen up the weekly Oscar attack.  And the stats don't even relate directly to Oscar! Go figure.

I like Oscar, much criticised here by many and I'm as confident he'll turn into a quality tall defender as the detractors say he won't.  I think he's pretty good now and will get better.  And just as STMJ is confident that Jnrmac's criticism of Oscar will fall on deaf ears I'm confidnet my position won't change one view.

My main interest in the Oscar debate now is how many more ways his detractors will find to lay the blame for our failures on him even if their evidence doesn't relate to him.

 

[beelzebub 23,370]

Funny. Im blaming the coaches more than the players but they aren't helping either. 

Pig and Nifty often save the day or put in admirable efforts. Frosty and Oscar aren't near where we need this ilk to be.

Some dont want to import talent ....what in case we hurt someones feelings ?.

Our perc is crap for two reasons. Weve failed to hit the scoreboard hard enough at one end and we've let others do just that at the other.

Whoever is running our back is doing a bang up job...( Wish he/they would take flight )

Its not functioning properly.

[Willmoy1947 4,086]

At the end of this season, i think i'm going to say what a lot of us are dreading... Straight swap....

[beelzebub 23,370]

Swap ?