POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 7

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

21 hours ago, xarronn said:

I noticed that the Hawks were again using a tactic that they were finally penalised for late last year. That was having a man move up close to the man on the mark and block him when the player with the ball played on. I didn't think that was allowed and if it is, why the hell aren't we doing it. The Hawks were a bit more subtle this year than they were last year, but it sure pizzed me off seeing them take that advantage yesterday.

They did it once and instead of being penalised the ball was called back for the player to take his kick again. If it's against the rules then we should've received a free, if not then it should be play on 

[old dee 23,872]

5 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Everyone is saying this is the closest season for decades. This is an opportunity to jump out of the pack. There is still time.

Mathematically adc but this is the MFC.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

19 hours ago, beelzebub said:

A psych might suggest they were indeed unwinnable as the trailing team hadn't the mental capacity/willpower to do so.

Now that is very unsavoury and unlikely to command curry.

It's also probably the truth.

That's rubbish, we were in front in the last quarter of every game except yesterday where we drew level. Not playing at 100% capacity 100% of the time is different to having no chance of winning the games we lost. We've suffered mental lapses, the Hawks game definitely the worst, but to say we've been no hope of winning every game this year is tripe. This isn't like Neeld-era where we went in expecting anything under 10 goals to be a win.

There's a distinction between not having won and being incapable of winning. Not winning a game does not mean you are incapable of it. Play the game 10 times and it's likely we win at least 5 (if not more) of them all things being equal.

[old dee 23,872]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's rubbish, we were in front in the last quarter of every game except yesterday where we drew level. Not playing at 100% capacity 100% of the time is different to having no chance of winning the games we lost. We've suffered mental lapses, the Hawks game definitely the worst, but to say we've been no hope of winning every game this year is tripe. This isn't like Neeld-era where we went in expecting anything under 10 goals to be a win.

There's a distinction between not having won and being incapable of winning. Not winning a game does not mean you are incapable of it. Play the game 10 times and it's likely we win at least 5 (if not more) of them all things being equal.

If we are capable of winning why don't we?

We don't because a we don't have enough talent to pull it off IMO.

but if I follow your idea that we do have enough talent then it has got to be that we do not have the mental where withall.

[Biffen 12,947]

We are a better team than the teams we are losing to.

On Sunday we still would have won but Hogan was molested by Gibson in the last entry from Salem and the umpire stood there like a rabbit in the headlights watching it.

The frustration is growing (again) with all the lost opportunities.

My guess is we may get on a roll and still miss out by a game or half a game due to these close ones.

Having said that,we can beat anyone now if we show up.

 

[dees189227 12,398]

I heard Bernie Vince on ch9 sport last night say hawthorn came out to play at the start and we didnt. I hate when players say that. If you arent ready to go in the first 30 minutes then when are you. You cannot just decide to come to play after 1/2 time. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

17 hours ago, Skuit said:

I played competitive tennis growing up. And would play in a dominant, scintillating fashion when matched up against better-ranked opponents but more often than not still somehow lose the match (by giving up too many cheap, key points). Meanwhile, I would play horribly against hackers and could never get my [censored] together. The concept of the 'ball not coming on'. It wasn't mental weakness, a disrespect for my opponent, or because I had tickets on myself, but a lack of maturity and the inability to adapt and find my own rhythm.

We have a young team which thrives on intensity - when it's not coming back at break-neck speed in the other direction (or if we're not overcoming a deficit) then we seem entirely flat. This week against the Crows is chocked with the potential to be a rip-snorting game. I'm afraid that we'll struggle to overcome our structural deficiencies, but I think we'll give them a red-hot run. Go Dees.

Yep and the Hawks knew this. Within the first couple of minutes they controlled possession with kick/mark style play and slowed the tempo down before it even had a chance to build. This messed up our rhythm, but when did start to become more break-neck in the 3rd we got well on top. We need to figure out how to play the game on our terms when things aren't going our way.

The opposite was true in the Freo game. In the 3rd quarter of that game we needed to control possession and take the sting out of the game for a few minutes but were unable to.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

9 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I find it fascinating and almost amusing how post game a trend is to look to stats and or reasons to substantiate the how and why we lost.

To use slightly different, but more

poignant wording it's really about why we didn't win.

The vast majority , people, media , sports folk expected US to win. 

Lets not lose sight of that as we clamber upon the excuse train.

 

Excuses are different to reasons. If the favourite won every match they played we wouldn't have to play the season, let's just let the Crows and Giants play off for the flag.

[ViaLoop 11]

26 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

I heard Bernie Vince on ch9 sport last night say hawthorn came out to play at the start and we didnt. I hate when players say that. If you arent ready to go in the first 30 minutes then when are you. You cannot just decide to come to play after 1/2 time. 

This one has always frustrated me. We have heard it so many times over the years. What these blokes do for a living is no mystery. So why are they all switched off at the start of a game?

[sc93 21]

Just an observation, but it seems that Goodwin is reluctant to throw numbers behind the ball to stop the momentum. He might throw one back when the tide is against us but I feel that in order to wrestle back the momentum we need to neutralise it first by playing 8 or 9 man defences e.g Beveridge against the Lions.

[binman 43,762]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yep and the Hawks knew this. Within the first couple of minutes they controlled possession with kick/mark style play and slowed the tempo down before it even had a chance to build. This messed up our rhythm, but when did start to become more break-neck in the 3rd we got well on top. We need to figure out how to play the game on our terms when things aren't going our way.

The opposite was true in the Freo game. In the 3rd quarter of that game we needed to control possession and take the sting out of the game for a few minutes but were unable to.

Excellent points. A big factor in our inability to get the game on our terms is not having Gawn in the side. He generates midfield possession, which is the key for us and Goody's game plan. I have to admit Lyons prediction his injury might cost us as many as four games (and potentially a final campaign) is likely to prove to be correct. In all likelihood we win both the hawks game and the freo game if Gawn plays.

[beelzebub 23,383]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Excuses are different to reasons. If the favourite won every match they played we wouldn't have to play the season, let's just let the Crows and Giants play off for the flag.

Yes we lost for a very good reason. We didn't come to play and then got jolted into the reality of the day.

The excuses then followed to explain .

They're still just excuses.

[Pates 9,660]

On 2017-5-8 at 8:48 AM, Petraccattack said:

He had a really good game in that win vs the Crows at Adelaide Oval in 2014.   Still remember that beautiful goal he kicked.

Shame he never went on with it.

To be fair to him, he got a very bad run with injuries which appears to have affected him confidence. Either way whether he had it or not, he doesn't add anything of value to the side as a small forward.

I know their different in body sizes but maybe he should take a leaf out of Jetta's book. Nev was being given chances as a small forward/midfielder but wasn't cutting it but reinvented himself. Maybe that's what JKH needs to do.

[Skuit 10,031]

41 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yep and the Hawks knew this. Within the first couple of minutes they controlled possession with kick/mark style play and slowed the tempo down before it even had a chance to build. This messed up our rhythm, but when did start to become more break-neck in the 3rd we got well on top. We need to figure out how to play the game on our terms when things aren't going our way.

The opposite was true in the Freo game. In the 3rd quarter of that game we needed to control possession and take the sting out of the game for a few minutes but were unable to.

We've lost and won pretty much every match in the past two seasons with a philosophy of playing the match on our terms. Punters get frustrated that our coaches don't come across as tactically reactive according to the opposition, but I think Roos and Goodwin devised a formula that they are supremely confident with and are constantly trying to install and reinforce it in the team - play this way and you will win. Fearless footy. How often have we heard Simon say we got back to the brand of footy we want to play, or we need to get back to it after a flat spot? Goodwin didn't make moves to counter what the Hawks were doing on the weekend but to provide an injection to our own style.

The problem is, to stick with the tennis analogy, tightening up in the last. It of course happens in close final-quarter football contests as well, but when your game-style relies on fearlessness rather than grind, you're more likely to lose your nerve. Especially if you're a young team, and don't have experience of confidently backing your plan through to a win. Our biggest last quarter was against Freo - when he had nothing to lose. Until the very point we had something to lose.   

 

 

[jnrmac 20,185]

55 minutes ago, sc93 said:

Just an observation, but it seems that Goodwin is reluctant to throw numbers behind the ball to stop the momentum. He might throw one back when the tide is against us but I feel that in order to wrestle back the momentum we need to neutralise it first by playing 8 or 9 man defences e.g Beveridge against the Lions.

Did it a lot this year at the start of games would start with 7 or 8 at centre square bounces 

[binman 43,762]

7 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Did it a lot this year at the start of games would start with 7 or 8 at centre square bounces 

Yes. But not to as a strategy to stop the momentum or a run of the opposition. Quite the opposite. It was about being aggressive and creating or maintaining momentum for us

Edited May 9, 2017 by binman

[Rogue 585]

58 minutes ago, Pates said:

I know their different in body sizes but maybe he should take a leaf out of Jetta's book. Nev was being given chances as a small forward/midfielder but wasn't cutting it but reinvented himself. Maybe that's what JKH needs to do.

Pretty sure he's on record as saying he thinks he's better as a mid, but not able to get a game in there.

I remember Jetta making comments in the early days re: the fact he wasn't suited to being a crumbing forward, but we played him there anyway.

[beelzebub 23,383]

3 hours ago, Biffen said:

We are NOT a better team than the teams we are losing to.

There Biff , fixed

To suggest otherwise is actually illogical , contrary to the facts.

What is...is 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

6 hours ago, loges said:

LOL, wallowing in hysteria. The fact that we've been ahead or even in the last quarter of every game, and have only won 3 is probably the cause of said hysteria

I'm as frustrated as anyone but demanding calls for the president to come out and address things, questioning the co-captaincy, going back to the "woe is me we're cursed, same old Melbourne" [censored] is what I'm referring to. 

People need to take a step back and get some perspective, we are improving we've been on the wrong end of some genuine 50/50 games and have had a pretty wretched run with injuries too. Losing sucks and I'm not happy we've lost winnable games but there's being unhappy then there's being irrationally hostile towards the club.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

3 hours ago, old dee said:

If we are capable of winning why don't we?

We don't because a we don't have enough talent to pull it off IMO.

but if I follow your idea that we do have enough talent then it has got to be that we do not have the mental where withall.

GWS were capable of beating the Saints last Friday, why didn't they?

[beelzebub 23,383]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

GWS were capable of beating the Saints last Friday, why didn't they?

They had the talent.

They weren't capable on the night.

Not mutually dependent

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Yes we lost for a very good reason. We didn't come to play and then got jolted into the reality of the day.

The excuses then followed to explain .

They're still just excuses.

So what is easier to remedy, having the talent and not the nous or having the nous but no talent? 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

They had the talent.

They weren't capable on the night.

Not mutually dependent

So if they play again this week will GWS be capable of beating the Saints?

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

We've lost and won pretty much every match in the past two seasons with a philosophy of playing the match on our terms. Punters get frustrated that our coaches don't come across as tactically reactive according to the opposition, but I think Roos and Goodwin devised a formula that they are supremely confident with and are constantly trying to install and reinforce it in the team - play this way and you will win. Fearless footy. How often have we heard Simon say we got back to the brand of footy we want to play, or we need to get back to it after a flat spot? Goodwin didn't make moves to counter what the Hawks were doing on the weekend but to provide an injection to our own style.

The problem is, to stick with the tennis analogy, tightening up in the last. It of course happens in close final-quarter football contests as well, but when your game-style relies on fearlessness rather than grind, you're more likely to lose your nerve. Especially if you're a young team, and don't have experience of confidently backing your plan through to a win. Our biggest last quarter was against Freo - when he had nothing to lose. Until the very point we had something to lose.   

 

 

The Freo game was interesting, they hit the lead and then didn't really know what to do. It's like they were caught between continuing the attacking play that got them the lead or going defensive and shutting the game down. They don't really have the experience or belief to play that negative style and run time off the clock so they were stuck in between both styles where they started to chip around for a bit before trying to pinpoint someone or going down the line to a contest.

[beelzebub 23,383]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So if they play again this week will GWS be capable of beating the Saints?

This week ?? lol