On 16/08/2017 at 3:39 PM, Vogon Poetry said:

And to complete your questions I'd find it hard to consider his recruitment a success if he only played one of three paid years.  He's been good for us this year and I've acknowledged that but he's not been great.   I'd consider one in three paid years a poor return.

On 16/08/2017 at 4:48 PM, Fat Tony said:

This is the crux of it for me.

 

Sorry for harping on about this - I said I wouldn't but I can't resist. (Yes, I am quite pathetic. A true Demons tragic!)

But Fat Tony, that is not the crux of the issue. I think you and VP have misunderstood the rhetorical nature of my question.

The point I was trying to make was that for Lewis to miss out on selection from the start of next year, a better player and leader would have to replace him.

And, if that were to happen, that would be a great outcome for the club. For Lewis is as proud, ruthless and professional as they come and he will not surrender his spot in the team meekly.

P.S. On a totally unrelated matter, does anyone know how to edit a post that is already up in the forum? I unintentionally used a larger font in one of posts here, and I want to make it normal size (I wasn't trying to be rude!).

11 minutes ago, Ben E said:

And, if that were to happen, that would be a great outcome for the club. For Lewis is as proud, ruthless and professional as they come and he will not surrender his spot in the team meekly.

I know what your saying but I'm not sure it would be a great outcome if he can't get a game.

It would mean we have a player that we don't need taking a spot on the lists, being paid and there for two years .  That would be a poor outcome for the club.

Just to clarify.  I don't mind that we've got him, I supported his recruitment, I don't think he's been a failure and I think he's been good at times. I just think he's not as good as many here think, he provides experience but not leadership and he's got a short shelf life.

Let's revisit in 10 months time.

All good points. Only time will tell 

On the Marngarook footy show last night Jetta and Harmes were asked about how the dees were handling the pressure of getting to finals and if they get there playing in them.

Jetta said the leaders were encouraging players to 'embrace the pressure'.  That phrase has Jordan Lewis writ large over it.

Lewis has gone up a gear over recent weeks but now his best work may well be off field getting our excitable lucifers into the right mind space!

Lewis showed his worth over the last 5 rounds - averaging just short of 30 touches, showing good leadership and clean hands

Its a pity more couldn't follow his lead.  I still think he will be important for us come this time next year (hopefully) and calls that he is past it are premature

24 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Lewis showed his worth over the last 5 rounds - averaging just short of 30 touches, showing good leadership and clean hands

Its a pity more couldn't follow his lead.  I still think he will be important for us come this time next year (hopefully) and calls that he is past it are premature

The proof of the pudding ...

Jones has led by example for years.  I expect more of Lewis, that's what we recruited him for. We failed at the final hurdle and really that's exactly the situation I expected him to be able to change.

I can't call it a success.

I have been critical of Lewis's three-year deal and I stand by the view that it was too long a contract given his age. I have set a benchmark of 50 games at current output to grade it a success.

In saying this, Lewis played well over the last month and he was one of our better players against Collingwood, particularly in the second half. I still think the signs are there that he is near the end, particularly his ability to pick up the ground ball, but I hope I am wrong.

It's just one of those issues that you have to deal with as you get older.

Oh right "importance"

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

The proof of the pudding ...

Jones has led by example for years.  I expect more of Lewis, that's what we recruited him for. We failed at the final hurdle and really that's exactly the situation I expected him to be able to change.

I can't call it a success.

Can any one player change that? The whole team fell in a heap in the first quarter.

I expect him to be able to influence it, but of course that is completely immeasurable from the outer, not withstanding posters on here attempting to anyway.

5 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

The proof of the pudding ...

Jones has led by example for years.  I expect more of Lewis, that's what we recruited him for. We failed at the final hurdle and really that's exactly the situation I expected him to be able to change.

I can't call it a success.

Jones is actually a very poor leader on field. He plays a resilient game but seldom actually leads.

Lewis has been a fantastic pick up for us.

Simple.

 

 

Prefer him over half the numbnuts that wore our colours on saturday.

It's the cycle of life. The aging body versus the growing of wisdom. In the case of Lewis., we benefit from his experience but old Father Time is catching up on the field. How much do we gain from his experience versus how much do we lose from his slowing body in the increasingly frenetic manic game of today, This season we have seen the benefits and the deficits. The balance will begin to tip in 2018 and beyond that it will be evident and perhaps embarrassing.

Also with all aging players the question is how long do you play an old body against the new young kid who needs game experience. 

Its a little like Luke Hodge. Great leader, great experience but the body was gone and at times was slower than the mind. 

I like Lewis and think he was a good pickup. His calmness and know how has been valuable but like Hodge his physical body can no longer do what it did 5-10 years ago and the game had changed.  

Retirement and the failing body comes to us all. 

Lewis clearly has abilities as a leader, mentor  and coach. Let's hope the club manages the transition in an appropriate and respectful  manner so that the club benefits from his knowledge and coaching skills. 

Ernest . I think JL has another season in him. 

Far from the slowest out there

Would be an interesting sliding doors, but imagine no Lewis in 2017; but we kept Howe.  A guess, but Howe would have commanded 35% more of Lewis' wage.  Yes we wouldn't have had Lewis' leadership, which is overrated.  If our boys had any steel and thirst intrinsically, we would have finished 5th, not 9th.  Lewis' last month was pretty good, but I still maintain he gets a lot of cheap handball receives that inflate his stats.  Oppositions realise he can't run with it, won't break a line, and hence zone off him on to potential targets.  When they have the ball, they know that he'll make a hail-mary contest and lose his feet, and if he doesn't, can easily be run off.

 

Howe had a lot of detractors on coincidenceland.  Could never understand it.  But I had faith in Roos, as players that he has attracted (Richards, Jolly, Ball, Joey Kennedy, Hally, McGlynn, Cross Vince etc...) over the journey have been mostly ticks; and he hasn't let go of many that would be regretted later.  Howe might be his first stuff-up.  Intercept marks at half-back (McGovern, Howe etc...) are vital in the modern game.  Howe was unlucky not to be AA this year.  Could have replaced Docherty easily.  BTW, Howe single-handedly spooked us in the first quarter with the obvious directive of not going long and direct.

 

But there was something in Howe that Roos didn't rate.  Workrate?  Tackling pressure?  Surely, it is on par or better than Wattsy.

 

I think bypassing Kelly (or Roos now says Billings) for Tyson, Salem & Hunt was OK, in view of the fact that Neeld depleted our list with B-grade trash (Gillies, Couch, etc....).

 

If Melbourne were fair-dinkum, Lewis should join Montagna, Rooey, Hodge, Mitchell, Jobe and Co.... right now.  If we think we need Jordan Lewis to make finals, we don't deserve to be there in the first place.  Petracca should play on-ball next year, so JL is destined to play loosey in defence.

 

 

Edited August 30, 20178 yr by TGR

1 hour ago, hemingway said:

It's the cycle of life. The aging body versus the growing of wisdom. In the case of Lewis., we benefit from his experience but old Father Time is catching up on the field. How much do we gain from his experience versus how much do we lose from his slowing body in the increasingly frenetic manic game of today, This season we have seen the benefits and the deficits. The balance will begin to tip in 2018 and beyond that it will be evident and perhaps embarrassing.

Also with all aging players the question is how long do you play an old body against the new young kid who needs game experience. 

Its a little like Luke Hodge. Great leader, great experience but the body was gone and at times was slower than the mind. 

I like Lewis and think he was a good pickup. His calmness and know how has been valuable but like Hodge his physical body can no longer do what it did 5-10 years ago and the game had changed.  

Retirement and the failing body comes to us all. 

Lewis clearly has abilities as a leader, mentor  and coach. Let's hope the club manages the transition in an appropriate and respectful  manner so that the club benefits from his knowledge and coaching skills. 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

 

howe left two seasons ago, and wanted to play forward

hibberd is a far superior player

5 minutes ago, TGR said:

Would be an interesting sliding doors, but imagine no Lewis in 2017; but we kept Howe.  

But there was something in Howe that Roos didn't rate.  Workrate?  Tackling pressure?  Surely, it is on par or better than Wattsy.

 

I think bypassing Kelly (or Roos now says Billings) for Tyson, Salem & Hunt was OK, in view of the fact that Neeld depleted our list with B-grade trash (Gillies, Couch, etc....).

 

If Melbourne were fair-dinkum, Lewis should join Montagna, Rooey, Hodge, Mitchell, Jobe and Co.... right now.  If we think we need Jordan Lewis to make finals, we don't deserve to be there in the first place.  Petracca should play on-ball next year, so JL is destined to play loosey in defence.

 

 

Interesting thoughts. Nevertheless Howe wanted out & made it blatantly obvious. We don't want players like that.  

I would have neither Howe (given he pretty much walked out on the club)  nor Watts for that matter.

Neeld  was bipartisan to an average list. You could not realistically expect him to be solely responsible for what he inherited. 

Tyson is copping it but  hindsight is easy. He is still only 24 and maturing. Same with Petracca but only younger

Clearly we have some work to do to make the finals. I don't think Lewis was recruited solely for that purpose.

 

Just now, Rangie HSE said:

Interesting thoughts. Nevertheless Howe wanted out & made it blatantly obvious. We don't want players like that.  

I would have neither Howe (given he pretty much walked out on the club)  nor Watts for that matter.

Neeld  was bipartisan to an average list. You could not realistically expect him to be solely responsible for what he inherited. 

Tyson is copping it but  hindsight is easy. He is still only 24 and maturing. Same with Petracca but only younger

Clearly we have some work to do to make the finals. I don't think Lewis was recruited solely for that purpose.

 

If Howe felt Roos didn't value him (1 point of his 25 points), then I don't blame Howe for wanting to go.  Our supporters on here certainly didn't value Jeremy Howe.

roos liked howe as a defensive intercept marker

howe liked howe as a high flying goal kicking forward

he can fly but he can't kick, so - as collingwood have found out - he's far better off down the back

the boy came to the mfc with a cfc tattoo on him, that's how much he loved the pies - when his boyhood hero told him what it'd be like to be a star forward at the pies, can you blame him for wanting to go?

he was never going to stay at the mfc when he was being offered double the wage at the franchises to head north or about the same to play for the club he clearly loved 

edit:

anyway, it's completely irrelevant as he left the club before the thought of lewis coming to the mfc was even a possibility

lewis has been a terrific acquisition and i'm confident we'll get the full three year value out of him

enough talking about a player who hasn't been with us for some time!

Edited August 30, 20178 yr by DemonAndrew

14 hours ago, Nasher said:

Can any one player change that? The whole team fell in a heap in the first quarter.

I expect him to be able to influence it, but of course that is completely immeasurable from the outer, not withstanding posters on here attempting to anyway.

Lewis played consistently decent football at the end of the season and was among our best 5 or 6 which is good.

But let's not kid ourselves - the expectation was that his on-field leadership would influence a different outcome in exactly the situation we found ourselves in on Saturday.  Maybe it surprised him - after all it was only the fifth time a similar thing happened this year.  It is measurable because we lost when we should have won.

His playing limitations are well documented in this thread and his capacity is declining.  Will he even be in the best 22 this time next year to be able to provide that influence?

I'm not calling his recruitment a fail, but I'm not calling it a success either.

Edited August 30, 20178 yr by Fifty-5

53 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Lewis played consistently decent football at the end of the season and was among our best 5 or 6 which is good.

But let's not kid ourselves - the expectation was that his on-field leadership would influence a different outcome in exactly the situation we found ourselves in on Saturday.  Maybe it surprised him - after all it was only the fifth time a similar thing happened this year.  It is measurable because we lost when we should have won.

His playing limitations are well documented in this thread and his capacity is declining.  Will he even be in the best 22 this time next year to be able to provide that influence?

I'm not calling his recruitment a fail, but I'm not calling it a success either.

Again, maybe I'm being thick but I'm struggling with the idea that one player has responsibility for the outcome when the whole team was pus. 

Maybe Lewis' influence added 5 goals to our side but we still fell short - how would we know? I find it hard to be critical *or* appraising of his leadership when I wasn't on the field or in the coaches box. To me it's a leap too far to say "we lost, therefore Lewis failed to exert the required leadership". The Lewis effect is 100% guesswork.

Maybe we're saying the same thing from opposite angles.

5 hours ago, Nasher said:

. The Lewis effect is 100% guesswork.

That is exactly right and why I've called people out who have lauded him for his "on field coaching", his leadership and some have even said he's been a great benefit off field as well. How would they know?

We can only judge what we see.  I've seen a stupid 3 week suspension, I've seen dumb 50 metre penalties (one against WCE that nearly cost the game and another against Adelaide in Darwin which cost a goal and so close to a spot in the 8 with that act alone).

I strongly criticised Lewis (and Hogan) for being reported for off the  ball incidents against Carlton and was roundly criticised.  Deiter even asked me what planet I lived on and I replied with

Quote

I live on a planet that says this Club aspires to play finals for the first time in 11 years.  To do that we need our best players on the field for the most number of games possible because at the end of the season one game and percentage could be vital.

IMO Lewis let the entire Club down - teammates, support staff, supporters.

As for his playing ability I think he's good when he's around the ball but terrible off it.  He continually gets beaten on the spread which gives teams a plus one in many situations.  He doesn't tackle much and he's now hurried with the ball because he doesn't have the agility to find time to dispose effectively.  His kicking is losing effectiveness, when the heat was on in the first quarter against Collingwood he couldn't hit targets when under little or no pressure.  And he is starting to fumble and go to ground.

For all these issues, which I think are speed and age related, unquestionably warranted a spot in the best 22. It will be interesting to see how the FD balance all these things next year.

30 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

That is exactly right and why I've called people out who have lauded him for his "on field coaching", his leadership and some have even said he's been a great benefit off field as well. How would they know?

We can only judge what we see.  I've seen a stupid 3 week suspension, I've seen dumb 50 metre penalties (one against WCE that nearly cost the game and another against Adelaide in Darwin which cost a goal and so close to a spot in the 8 with that act alone).

I strongly criticised Lewis (and Hogan) for being reported for off the  ball incidents against Carlton and was roundly criticised.  Deiter even asked me what planet I lived on and I replied with

IMO Lewis let the entire Club down - teammates, support staff, supporters.

As for his playing ability I think he's good when he's around the ball but terrible off it.  He continually gets beaten on the spread which gives teams a plus one in many situations.  He doesn't tackle much and he's now hurried with the ball because he doesn't have the agility to find time to dispose effectively.  His kicking is losing effectiveness, when the heat was on in the first quarter against Collingwood he couldn't hit targets when under little or no pressure.  And he is starting to fumble and go to ground.

For all these issues, which I think are speed and age related, unquestionably warranted a spot in the best 22. It will be interesting to see how the FD balance all these things next year.

Give up moaning about his suspension and (Hogan's). It was long ago early in the season and he's behaved since. If you want to [censored] a dead horse there are others more worthy. 

Edited August 31, 20178 yr by america de cali

1 minute ago, america de cali said:

Give up moaning about his suspension. It was long ago early in the season and he's behaved since. If you want to [censored] a dead horse there are others more worthy. 

I'm moaning about not making finals and looking for explanations.  If you don't like my posts put me on ignore and your problem is solved.