AFL Finals Week 1 - 2016

[John Crow Batty 8,860]

Back to the Sydney/ GWS game. It was an enthralling deadlock in the third quarter. Both teams fighting hard to get the break. Until a couple of trully crap umpiring decisions and non decisions to turn the game. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by america de cali

[Satyriconhome 10,675]

All this hand wringing over GWS.

Yes they got high draft picks, but you have to develop them properly and have them working as a team, we at MFC know high draft picks is no guarantee

You have to get the right coaches

You have to get the right experienced players, Gold Coast have shown it can go wrong

You have to do real business on the trade table, they have shown they were willing to take risks, they let Hogan and Tyson go, we should be grateful for that (at the moment), and Bugg to a lesser extent, and Boyd to the Bulldogs

We [censored] up in the last 10 years all by ourselves, GWS had no part in it, and Hawthorn seem not to be affected in the last four or five by the so called bias from the AFL

Suck it up kiddies

[Cards13 9,117]

48 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

All this hand wringing over GWS.

Yes they got high draft picks, but you have to develop them properly and have them working as a team, we at MFC know high draft picks is no guarantee

You have to get the right coaches

You have to get the right experienced players, Gold Coast have shown it can go wrong

You have to do real business on the trade table, they have shown they were willing to take risks, they let Hogan and Tyson go, we should be grateful for that (at the moment), and Bugg to a lesser extent, and Boyd to the Bulldogs

We [censored] up in the last 10 years all by ourselves, GWS had no part in it, and Hawthorn seem not to be affected in the last four or five by the so called bias from the AFL

Suck it up kiddies

Rubbish, they have been spoon feed the golden goose eggs and been given magic beans. No one could fark that up (maybe CS and BP). The worst part is they continue to get concessions until 2018 isn't it? 

Where has the support been for the Doggies, Saints and Dees to help the heartland clubs in the same way? Well besides all the cash...

[Redleg 40,777]

Clearly they needed success to get the team a following. The question is did they go too far in giving them all the concessions?  Just as clearly they did.

The massive amount of high picks are now setting the foundation for a great team, together with what they are getting back, for the boys who can't fit in their team, but walk into others.

They are just adding more high end talent each year, with the picks other clubs are giving them and from their academies/zones priority.

They won't come back to the field for another 10 years.

[Satyriconhome 10,675]

1 hour ago, Cards13 said:

Rubbish, they have been spoon feed the golden goose eggs and been given magic beans. No one could fark that up (maybe CS and BP). The worst part is they continue to get concessions until 2018 isn't it? 

Where has the support been for the Doggies, Saints and Dees to help the heartland clubs in the same way? Well besides all the cash...

Gold Coast seem to be having a good try, I remember the same angst about them on here

Oh please, we were bailed out of the financial hole we put ourselves in

Edited September 11, 2016 by Satyriconhome

[daisycutter 29,600]

1 minute ago, Redleg said:

Clearly they needed success to get the team a following. The question is did they go too far in giving them all the concessions?  Just as clearly they did.

The massive amount of high picks are now setting the foundation for a great team, together with what they are getting back, for the boys who can't fit in their team, but walk into others.

They are just adding more high end talent each year, with the picks other clubs are giving them and from their academies/zones priority.

They won't come back to the field for another 10 years.

certainly looks that way, red

when you also factor in the increased salary cap and a similar situation with the suns and the other 3 northern academies then the market for other clubs will stay constrained for some time. the 10 years may be optimistic without any afl changes

[old55 23,323]

16 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Clearly they needed success to get the team a following. The question is did they go too far in giving them all the concessions?  Just as clearly they did.

The massive amount of high picks are now setting the foundation for a great team, together with what they are getting back, for the boys who can't fit in their team, but walk into others.

They are just adding more high end talent each year, with the picks other clubs are giving them and from their academies/zones priority.

They won't come back to the field for another 10 years.

It's not a sure thing though.  It hasn't worked as well for GC.  It has taken great management at GWS to achieve this.  Hope you like their Russian style theme song, you'll be hearing it a bit.  I think it's catchy.

[Redleg 40,777]

7 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

It's not a sure thing though.  It hasn't worked as well for GC.  It has taken great management at GWS to achieve this.  Hope you like their Russian style theme song, you'll be hearing it a bit.  I think it's catchy.

I don't.

[daisycutter 29,600]

8 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

It's not a sure thing though.  It hasn't worked as well for GC.  It has taken great management at GWS to achieve this.  Hope you like their Russian style theme song, you'll be hearing it a bit.  I think it's catchy.

i wouldn't write-off the suns yet. they had a dreadful run of injuries this year with basically their whole midfield hobbled. Yes, i know there have been reports of other problems too but when you lose a few games these get a little exaggerated. not saying swans will do a gws, just cautioning against any suggestion the suns are cooked and wont be a threat in the near future 

[Redleg 40,777]

 

3 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i wouldn't write-off the suns yet. they had a dreadful run of injuries this year with basically their whole midfield hobbled. Yes, i know there have been reports of other problems too but when you lose a few games these get a little exaggerated. not saying swans will do a gws, just cautioning against any suggestion the suns are cooked and wont be a threat in the near future 

The Suns are great up forward and good up back. Their problem is now midfield. They will lose Prestia and O'Meara ( who hasn't played for 2 years granted ) have an ageing and injured Ablett and Rischitelli, a disinterested and injured Swallow and a couple of journeymen being delisted who have served their purpose.

They do have some high picks however and if they can trade and draft well for mids, they could be up and running very quickly.

You can build a team around a great key forward in Lynch, like GWS with Cameron. Hopefully we can do the same if our boy stays. But back to the Suns, if they get the middle right, they are right back into the contest. 

[deejammin' 2,363]

31 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Gold Coast seem to be having a good try, I remember the same angst about them on here

Oh please, we were bailed out of the financial hole we put ourselves in

If the concessions given to either GWS or Gold Coast were given to any Victorian club every other club administrator and member would be screaming bloody murder about the Comp being fixed.

Both these clubs have had more first round draft picks than any club ever, they also have had the unprecedented ability to trade players like Hogan etc for what was meant to be senior players. They still have no fixed salary cap.

GWS also had a clear advantage on Gold Coast as they watched what they did with their concessions and improved it and their academy includes traditionally Victorian zones and has yielded better results. Despite all this if Gold Coast had had slightly better luck with injury we would be seeing them in finals too. 

Im sure a lot of people at GWS have got a lot right and worked very hard, but it's hard to get excited about something that has so clearly been manufactured. Think of the debate around giving teams like Melbourne and now Brisbane ONE priority pick then look at GWS and Gold Coast's draft concessions, it would have been ridiculous for them not to succeed, and we're still only at the beginning...

Getting excited about GWS winning finals is like getting excited about big banks making profits. Sure some people were smart and worked hard, but the system was fixed from the beginning.

[Satyriconhome 10,675]

1 minute ago, deejammin' said:

If the concessions given to either GWS or Gold Coast were given to any Victorian club every other club administrator and member would be screaming bloody murder about the Comp being fixed.

Both these clubs have had more first round draft picks than any club ever, they also have had the unprecedented ability to trade players like Hogan etc for what was meant to be senior players. They still have no fixed salary cap.

GWS also had a clear advantage on Gold Coast as they watched what they did with their concessions and improved it and their academy includes traditionally Victorian zones and has yielded better results. Despite all this if Gold Coast had had slightly better luck with injury we would be seeing them in finals too. 

Im sure a lot of people at GWS have got a lot right and worked very hard, but it's hard to get excited about something that has so clearly been manufactured. Think of the debate around giving teams like Melbourne and now Brisbane ONE priority pick then look at GWS and Gold Coast's draft concessions, it would have been ridiculous for them not to succeed, and we're still only at the beginning...

Getting excited about GWS winning finals is like getting excited about big banks making profits. Sure some people were smart and worked hard, but the system was fixed from the beginning.

Nobody is getting excited about GWS getting into finals on here, I just think it is rather humorous with all the talk about fixing and conspiracy theories, people were laughing on here 4 years ago when GWS were getting smashed every week in front of a few thousand.............as they were doing everything right, we were doing everything wrong........(I look after my money the old way, I spend everything I earn). As for the Gold Coast, I think they are in a mess and will need a couple of more seasons to sort themselves out

[deejammin' 2,363]

6 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Nobody is getting excited about GWS getting into finals on here, I just think it is rather humorous with all the talk about fixing and conspiracy theories, people were laughing on here 4 years ago when GWS were getting smashed every week in front of a few thousand.............as they were doing everything right, we were doing everything wrong........(I look after my money the old way, I spend everything I earn). As for the Gold Coast, I think they are in a mess and will need a couple of more seasons to sort themselves out

Nobody on here, but the AFL media machine will go nuts about it and at some point patronisingly tell struggling clubs that GWS has the blueprint to success while we all wonder how the hell any team can get 30 first round draft picks over 3 years. 

Gold Coast has stuffed it up but also had bad luck, if O'meara, Swallow, Ablett and co played 20 games together for this season with Lynch in the forward line they would be in serious finals contention. They could be pushing for finals next year with a better run with injuries and some good trades.

We'll never know how much was concessions how much was astute management. If we could go back in time and halve the concessions and salary cap given to both teams my guess would be that we would see a more even competition with GWS having more good will as they would earn their success like every other club.

Edited September 11, 2016 by deejammin'

[Cards13 9,117]

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Clearly they needed success to get the team a following. The question is did they go too far in giving them all the concessions?  Just as clearly they did.

The massive amount of high picks are now setting the foundation for a great team, together with what they are getting back, for the boys who can't fit in their team, but walk into others.

They are just adding more high end talent each year, with the picks other clubs are giving them and from their academies/zones priority.

They won't come back to the field for another 10 years.

All clubs signed off on it.. Including ours.

[daisycutter 29,600]

7 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

All clubs signed off on it.. Including ours.

correct, and i still scratch my head over this

not so much the principle of giving a decent kick start to the new franchises, but the sheer extent of the concessions. I do wonder exactly how much the clubs actually signed off on and how much the afl conned/threatened the clubs, but i guess we will never really know

Edited September 11, 2016 by daisycutter

[Sir Why You Little 36,918]

6 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

correct, and i still scratch my head over this

not so much the principle of giving a decent kick start to the new franchises, but the sheer extent of the concessions. I do wonder exactly how much the clubs actually signed off on and how much the afl conned/threatened the clubs, but i guess we will never really know

My guess is Clubs were "told" to sign on the Dotted Line. 

This was all to do with Broadcast Rights

[titan_uranus 24,963]

2 hours ago, Cards13 said:

Rubbish, they have been spoon feed the golden goose eggs and been given magic beans. No one could fark that up (maybe CS and BP). The worst part is they continue to get concessions until 2018 isn't it? 

Where has the support been for the Doggies, Saints and Dees to help the heartland clubs in the same way? Well besides all the cash...

How's Gold Coast going?

Starting up two new clubs in non-AFL areas was always going to require both getting advantages. Similar advantages were given to both GWS and GC and only one of those clubs has made it work. Credit to GWS for that (everything from their choices of experienced players through to their drafting and their coaching).

The AFL knew it needed to make GWS (and GC) strong as quickly as possible or they wouldn't work as clubs. GWS making finals boosts AFL in Sydney and Western Sydney (you only have to be in Sydney, which I am as I type, to see that) and that is good for the long-term health of the game. I have no problem with their rapid rise.

The key now is how well, if at all, the winding back of the concessions works. GC is back to a level playing field already and we know they don't look much different to any other weak AFL side.

2019 is the first year where GWS' list is the same size as everyone else's and its salary cap is the same. That means it has to start winding back, if it hasn't already. Hopefully, then, as the Dogs, Melbourne, St Kilda and Collingwood start to improve, GWS will come back to the pack. 

But ultimately, I would rather a GWS powerhouse for the next 2-3 years than another Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong premiership.

[daisycutter 29,600]

59 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

My guess is Clubs were "told" to sign on the Dotted Line. 

This was all to do with Broadcast Rights

yes, we know that, but that only explains why they agreed to the formation of new franchises 

but what specifically in the way of actual concessions did they agree to. did they agree in all details to all the individual concessions granted or just more to in-principle concessions? 

[Sir Why You Little 36,918]

5 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

yes, we know that, but that only explains why they agreed to the formation of new franchises 

but what specifically in the way of actual concessions did they agree to. did they agree in all details to all the individual concessions granted or just more to in-principle concessions? 

I think they just had to agree to the whole box. It was a very quick unanimous vote. 

[Nasher 33,607]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

Clearly they needed success to get the team a following. The question is did they go too far in giving them all the concessions?  Just as clearly they did.

The massive amount of high picks are now setting the foundation for a great team, together with what they are getting back, for the boys who can't fit in their team, but walk into others.

They are just adding more high end talent each year, with the picks other clubs are giving them and from their academies/zones priority.

They won't come back to the field for another 10 years.

I reckon it would be difficult from the outset to know the right amount of concessions to give though, since the success or otherwise wouldn't follow until half a decade or more later.  I think it's pretty easy now to say the AFL overdid it, or even at the time say they were overdoing it, but the AFL would have had to take in to account GWS picking a certain number of poor players, making poor trades and so forth.  It's all assumptions and guesswork - there were a wide range of possible outcomes by 2016; a top 4 side is but one.  

Anyway, just like there were no guarantee that draft concessions would lead to a strong team, there's no guarantee their success will be sustained, there's no guarantee they'll win a flag, and there's no guarantee (although it looks unlikely) that they won't spontaneously fall off a cliff in the next few years.  Freo, Port and Gold Coast are great examples of how quickly it can go south if the cards don't fall your way for whatever reason.

[Redleg 40,777]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

I reckon it would be difficult from the outset to know the right amount of concessions to give though, since the success or otherwise wouldn't follow until half a decade or more later.  I think it's pretty easy now to say the AFL overdid it, or even at the time say they were overdoing it, but the AFL would have had to take in to account GWS picking a certain number of poor players, making poor trades and so forth.  It's all assumptions and guesswork - there were a wide range of possible outcomes by 2016; a top 4 side is but one.  

Anyway, just like there were no guarantee that draft concessions would lead to a strong team, there's no guarantee their success will be sustained, there's no guarantee they'll win a flag, and there's no guarantee (although it looks unlikely) that they won't spontaneously fall off a cliff in the next few years.  Freo, Port and Gold Coast are great examples of how quickly it can go south if the cards don't fall your way for whatever reason.

A couple of knee injuries to Mummy and Cameron would change the scenario drastically.

[Macca 16,900]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

I reckon it would be difficult from the outset to know the right amount of concessions to give though, since the success or otherwise wouldn't follow until half a decade or more later.  I think it's pretty easy now to say the AFL overdid it, or even at the time say they were overdoing it, but the AFL would have had to take in to account GWS picking a certain number of poor players, making poor trades and so forth.  It's all assumptions and guesswork - there were a wide range of possible outcomes by 2016; a top 4 side is but one.  

Anyway, just like there were no guarantee that draft concessions would lead to a strong team, there's no guarantee their success will be sustained, there's no guarantee they'll win a flag, and there's no guarantee (although it looks unlikely) that they won't spontaneously fall off a cliff in the next few years.  Freo, Port and Gold Coast are great examples of how quickly it can go south if the cards don't fall your way for whatever reason.

Many or probably most were circumspect about the Giants early on.  The ones who were saying they were going to rise quickly were almost certainly saying the same thing about the GCS.  Also, there were any number of disparaging remarks made about the Giants after their 2nd season (2013 - 1 win)

But your post is well made ... it's hard to know what the outcomes are going to be when there are so many factors at play ... the Bears and Eagles sort of mirrors the Suns & Giants but for different reasons. 

The Crows & Power got going reasonably quickly whilst Freo were a middling club for longer than expected ... the Crows played in a Prelim in their 3rd year, Port achieved a record of 16 & 6 in their 5th season and Freo didn't play finals until their 9th season .

So it's a bit of a mixed bag ... I'm by no means defending the AFL or the Giants.  It's more so that what has happened has happened and our club needs to find a way to be a real player.  We need to tick a lot of boxes but that's always been the case anyway.  A small club like the Doggies is in many ways showing the way.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Macca

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Compare the two tackles below, what are the chances that Mumford gets suspended?

 

 

By the way, Tippett has a suspected cracked jaw as a result of this tackle.

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Clint Bizkit

[What 18,810]

3 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Gold Coast seem to be having a good try, I remember the same angst about them on here

Oh please, we were bailed out of the financial hole we put ourselves in

Gold Coast didnt get anywhere near the leg up GWS did. The Giants were handed a future premiership team, and to this day they are still getting top picks due to the talent they are trading out. Its a vicious cycle that will set them up to dominate the next decade.

 GWS could have zero development coaches and still win multiple flags.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Petraccattack

[daisycutter 29,600]

6 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Compare this to this, what are the chances that Mumford gets suspended?

By the way, Tippett has a suspected cracked jaw as a result of this tackle.

repeat after me, clint. "the mrp does not look at precedents, each case is evaluated on the best interests of the afl"