Hawthorn's stats are poor, but

[sue 9,102]

Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jul/11/culture-club-hawthorn-highlight-importance-of-innovation-in-the-afl

[hells bells 2,023]

I think we can get them next time we play.

[Gorgoroth 12,947]

Just now, hells bells said:

I think we can get them next time we play.

I like your thinking but I think not. 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,388]

There isn't a stat for this but the Hawks are one of a handful of teams that if at the start of a game they aren't mentally switched on they can just flick a switch and bang they're away. Most teams including ourselves can't do that, if we're not on at the start of the game it's all over. 

 

[DeeSpencer 25,680]

4 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

There isn't a stat for this but the Hawks are one of a handful of teams that if at the start of a game they aren't mentally switched on they can just flick a switch and bang they're away. Most teams including ourselves can't do that, if we're not on at the start of the game it's all over. 

 

A combination of talent, leadership, coaching moves and having the versatility in players to be able to make those moves. Probably in that order.

[DeeSpencer 25,680]

I'm not buying that Clarko doesn't use stats. Fair waste of an MBA if he can't analyse some basic stats. 

That said, I'm almost certain he doesn't use the ones everyone else does (as all clubs would be different) and he's not going to publicly announce what he values. 

I'm sure he has statistical ways to measure the ball movement based game plan that he favours, and ways of quantifying the team defending. 

Hopefully the AFL allow more stats for the general public and for journos so the quality of footy analysis improves.

As for Hawthorn not following some of the more traditional stats, come the biggest game of the year they've found a way to win most of them.

2015: Clearances (-6), centre clear (=), inside 50's (+19), contested poss (+16)

2014: Clearances (+2), centre clear (-2), inside 50's (+20), contested poss (+10)

2013: Clearances (+8), centre clear (-1), inside 50's (+1), contested poss (+1)

 

 

 

[DeeSpencer 25,680]

The way Clarko throws kids in early to play certain positions, then often moves them around to develop some different parts of their game (see Sicily playing down back) is really smart. He's willing to sacrifice some percentage and maybe even a win or two to make sure the depth of his list is superior to all his rivals and to make his players well rounded before they develop bad habits. 

Coaches of other top teams should do it more. 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,388]

48 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

A combination of talent, leadership, coaching moves and having the versatility in players to be able to make those moves. Probably in that order.

Another factor could possibly be that "now" they can absorb pressure better than most. Every club attempts to "get up" to play them as they are the bench mark of the competition and have been for some time. 

I remember Malthouse saying something similar about Collingwood playing in front of massive crowds every week put them in good stead come finals. Teams lifted when playing the Pies, especially us, playing them in recent years in some ways has been a final of sorts because of the crowd and the game being a stand alone match. 

People have mentioned on here about the  coaches timing of 

- Petracca's debut 

- Trengove's return

- Grimes 100th

As a means of motivation, no disrespect to the above mentioned players but their inclusion alone wasn't/isn't going to greatly effect the game on their own ability but maybe lift the team as a whole, because we still don't come to play every week. For the remainder of the season, especially against the Eagles, Port, Hawks and Cats I want to see some real resilience about us, we also Obviously we all want a big scalp, but if one isn't to come we must fight out every game until the end. We need to learn to come to play every week regardless of how weak or strong we deem the opposition to be or whether or not we are a chance to play finals, or if there is a milestone on hand. We need to build on this winning mindset.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Bombay Airconditioning

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

1 hour ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

There isn't a stat for this but the Hawks are one of a handful of teams that if at the start of a game they aren't mentally switched on they can just flick a switch and bang they're away. Most teams including ourselves can't do that, if we're not on at the start of the game it's all over. 

 

The best teams do. I remember back in the 80/90's we'd be with them in games, playing well, then all of a sudden we've lost by 7 goals. Geelong did it routinely during their golden years. 5 minutes would kill the game no matter how good the other team was playing.

If you could bottle the magic that makes that happen you'd be rich (or if a true Demon give it to the club for free)

 

[Skin Deeamond 339]

The Hawks are also great at fooling the umpires into giving them frees inside their forward fifty.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

One stat they are sure to lead by miles is hacking the ball forward In pressure situations. 

[sue 9,102]

11 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'm not buying that Clarko doesn't use stats. Fair waste of an MBA if he can't analyse some basic stats. 

That said, I'm almost certain he doesn't use the ones everyone else does (as all clubs would be different) and he's not going to publicly announce what he values. 

I'm sure he has statistical ways to measure the ball movement based game plan that he favours, and ways of quantifying the team defending. 

Hopefully the AFL allow more stats for the general public and for journos so the quality of footy analysis improves.

As for Hawthorn not following some of the more traditional stats, come the biggest game of the year they've found a way to win most of them.

2015: Clearances (-6), centre clear (=), inside 50's (+19), contested poss (+16)

2014: Clearances (+2), centre clear (-2), inside 50's (+20), contested poss (+10)

2013: Clearances (+8), centre clear (-1), inside 50's (+1), contested poss (+1)

 

 

 

But in two of those GFs the Hawks demolished their opponents by large margins. Opponents would have thrown in the towel pretty early on making it easy for the hawks to get  unusually good stats.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

Please, can we just beat this club. Just beat them Dees. I know you can do it...

[praha 11,240]

They are beatable, but ultimately they know how to "play the game" better than anyone and they probably play team football better than most. They have experienced bodies and experienced minds who can turn things around very quickly. They also have 4-5 "X factor" players, and you only need one of them to be "on" for the Hawks to be a good chance to win.

This is probably the most vulnerable they have been since 2010, and yet they still sit a game clear in first on the ladder. They have won many close games and imo deserve to be flag favourites. 

We can beat them. I honestly think that on the MCG we are one of only a few teams that can. But of those teams that "can", we probably have the smallest margin for error. We can definitely roll them. 

[old55 23,552]

Going from dreading playing them, I'm looking forward to it nowadays.  It's only a matter of time.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Like any great team it's probably a combination of elite factors that make up the recipe....

• One of the best at pressuring opponents when they haven't got the pill.
• Probably the best at hitting targets by foot once they get it back.
• I doubt very few on their list get a regular game at senior level without being elite by foot ie, above AFL average at hitting short targets on the lead and in general play.
• If they are under severe pressure they still move it forward and attempt to get it inside 50 with quick release long kicking from mid field. They don't like bombing though and prefer long LOW raking kicks that reach the hot spot more quickly with less hang time, attempting to create more chaos and putting defenders under more severe one on one pressure without the ability of others coming across to effect spoils and assist their mates down back.
• In addition they are pretty accurate when it comes to goal kicking.

All in all they don't appear obsessed about winning contested or clearances 24/7 as they know they'll get it back and have the opposition chasing their tail around and up the ground. Meaning their opponent will have spent some of the energy they would have liked to have used on the next stoppage. Eventually all that chasing will wear any good contested/clearance team down. And once that evens out, they are their for the taking as there's no way they will match the Hawks on the elite kicking/ball movement and run late in the game, unless the opponent is also elite in this area also which is rare.

The Hawks also seem to be happy to often give the opposition a plus one at the ball in order to have a plus one sitting defensive side of the stoppage to assist with the intercept of a bail out kick or if they gain possession at the stoppage they can go to that plus one. They then shift into run and spread super quickly in a diagonal wave overlap pattern through the middle of the field with most HBs involved. Not a new thing and I've seen other teams doing similar also (or attempting to), including us on occasions, but the Hawks seem to like this give and take plus one set up from what I've witnessed as it suits their style and elite running players off HB and the wings.