11 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

What? I'm a simple person but this makes no sense.

How do you develop a winning culture when your focus isn't winning games?

IMO it's a cop out from Roosy and an easy thing to say given he wont be around to cop the heat if it doesn't work out. Our game style has shown that we fall right in that bracket at this stage.

 

 

You can also actually create an unsustainable loosing culture while winning, seems odd but can certainly happen. It all comes down to attitude and the non negotiables. If they are right and they stay right while you develop then when you start winning (which is the hard bit) then the culture is there to fall back on and the winning continues. If it comes easy or you start winning due to purely having a great gameplan without the right culture behind it then you fall over after a little flash of light. 

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

And that is what worries me. 

3 years is enough time to rebuild a  Football Department if there is belief and committment

i think we have under achieved so far by quite a a way

The footy department, minus the players, has been rebuilt and is now good. The players have been turned over almost completely with many in the second season of AFL. If the list hadn't been turned over then I would agree, that is why Carlton are doing OK as there turn over was smaller and for players with a few years through the system already, we don't have that. 

If we don't have the jump in the next 12 months then I will agree.  

1 minute ago, Chris said:

The footy department, minus the players, has been rebuilt and is now good. The players have been turned over almost completely with many in the second season of AFL. If the list hadn't been turned over then I would agree, that is why Carlton are doing OK as there turn over was smaller and for players with a few years through the system already, we don't have that. 

If we don't have the jump in the next 12 months then I will agree.  

Ok fair enough. I say it because the players wanted Roos to coach them. 

Year 1. Learn with Training wheels

Year 2. Remove Training Wheels and start using what has been learnt. Take the jump (Trust yourself)

Year 3. Push up the ladder and self confidence becomes a force. 

But in reality during Year 3 The Training Wheels are still on. 

Defence is non existent almost. 

We are 6/7, ( improving) nearly every week we walk away with something positive that indicates a baby step (this week Hunt) and this has been going on for three years now.

Hogan, Viney , Gawn , Brayshaw, Salem ,Tyson ,Petracca, Oliver, Hunt, Stretch  Harms ( apologies to others) plus a bit of astute trading ( Vince, Lamumba, Garlett , Kennedy, Bugg) and there is more to come in the seconds.

The top sides are not going to roll over or give us an inch. The above players and others when the they are truly ready and prepared  , when the time is right ( and its getting closer ) are simply going to shove  them out of the way. It takes time. Take a look at the Giants with 24 first round draft picks ,Premiership players  and Club captains. We managed to beat them.

Roos has held the cup up, he knows what it takes, he knows how hard it is and we saw exactly what we are up against Sunday. ie.Tough hard, forged blokes with bigger bodies who can really play. They also play for each other and would die for the cause. These blokes have been operating at the top end of the curve for a long time and then you  throw in Franklin and Tippett.

Happy to have Roos steering the ship, the other more successful options are?

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Ok fair enough. I say it because the players wanted Roos to coach them. 

Year 1. Learn with Training wheels

Year 2. Remove Training Wheels and start using what has been learnt. Take the jump (Trust yourself)

Year 3. Push up the ladder and self confidence becomes a force. 

But in reality during Year 3 The Training Wheels are still on. 

Defence is non existent almost. 

That's a good way to look at it. The way I think it has unfolded is:

Year 1: Put the training wheels on then realise half the team still can't ride so throw them out at years end

Year 2: Bring in the new players and keep the training wheels on and learn more fundamentals. Throw out a few more players

Year 3: Start to loosen the training wheels and start to use what has been learnt and make the game plan more complicated. 

Year 4: (under Goodwin) should be a climb up the ladder.

Our defence is OK most of the time, it does fail miserably when the effort across the ground drops. When the effort is there is works well enough. 

2 minutes ago, Chris said:

That's a good way to look at it. The way I think it has unfolded is:

Year 1: Put the training wheels on then realise half the team still can't ride so throw them out at years end

Year 2: Bring in the new players and keep the training wheels on and learn more fundamentals. Throw out a few more players

Year 3: Start to loosen the training wheels and start to use what has been learnt and make the game plan more complicated. 

Year 4: (under Goodwin) should be a climb up the ladder.

Our defence is OK most of the time, it does fail miserably when the effort across the ground drops. When the effort is there is works well enough. 

I still find it hard to believe that these players are not utilizing fundamental skills during Paul Roos 3rd Year

i have at times had to learn very serious concepts at work in 3 days otherwise i cost the company money. 

After 3 years i am teaching these concepts to others

this is why i get so frustrated. 

Max Gawn has taken the jump but no one has followed him yet

4 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I still find it hard to believe that these players are not utilizing fundamental skills during Paul Roos 3rd Year

i have at times had to learn very serious concepts at work in 3 days otherwise i cost the company money. 

After 3 years i am teaching these concepts to others

this is why i get so frustrated. 

Max Gawn has taken the jump but no one has followed him yet

Gawn has been around a long time. It seems some of the older brigade have struggled to learn and are no longer playing. There is also a big contingent that haven't had 3 years of learning and have only had one full preseason, or none in some cases. That contingent should be much smaller than it is in the players on the field but we don't have that option. 

Of the players who played on the weekend the players who have done one full preseason or less are (including missing due to injury)

Hunt, Wagner, Oliver, Petracca, OMac, Stretch, and Vandenberg. Add to that Harmes who has played a fair bit this year and Brayshaw (both of whom are probably starting 22 when in form) and that is 9 players including a big chunk of our defence who haven't been in the system long at all, let alone the 3 years Roos has been there. 

I would also say TMac and Viney are significantly better now than they were 2.5 years ago. 

In terms of you learning in 3 days, I assume that you would be coming off a pretty good base of previous work to be able to do so, try doing that with a grad straight out of uni, that is effectively what a big chunk of our team are. 

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this yet: the biggest existential threat to the upward trajectory of the current crop is the question of whether or not Goodwin can coach!

Pub.

3 minutes ago, Chris said:

Gawn has been around a long time. It seems some of the older brigade have struggled to learn and are no longer playing. There is also a big contingent that haven't had 3 years of learning and have only had one full preseason, or none in some cases. That contingent should be much smaller than it is in the players on the field but we don't have that option. 

Of the players who played on the weekend the players who have done one full preseason or less are (including missing due to injury)

Hunt, Wagner, Oliver, Petracca, OMac, Stretch, and Vandenberg. Add to that Harmes who has played a fair bit this year and Brayshaw (both of whom are probably starting 22 when in form) and that is 9 players including a big chunk of our defence who haven't been in the system long at all, let alone the 3 years Roos has been there. 

I would also say TMac and Viney are significantly better now than they were 2.5 years ago. 

In terms of you learning in 3 days, I assume that you would be coming off a pretty good base of previous work to be able to do so, try doing that with a grad straight out of uni, that is effectively what a big chunk of our team are. 

But these kids have all been drafted from the same place. 

They should all have fundamental skills, those coming in should be ready at that level. 

Learning a workflow is not hard when you know the basics

our players stagnate as soon as any pressure is applied. 

Just because we're not quite in finals contention after 2.5 years doesn't mean there's some sort of bigger 5 year plan. It just means we aren't good enough. I acknowledge that there's been a youth focus this year in selection, and that could mean more waiting, and we're still working out a usable game plan and our best 22. One such plan was making finals in 2016 and we very likely will not. All I know is that most 3-5 year plans clubs talk about are BS. You can put all the right work in but then still shirk a contest, handball at a player's foot, and just not be good enough, or of course have other teams be better than you

17 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But these kids have all been drafted from the same place. 

They should all have fundamental skills, those coming in should be ready at that level. 

Learning a workflow is not hard when you know the basics

our players stagnate as soon as any pressure is applied. 

Yes they are coming from the same place and they do know the basics, it is how that is applied at the higher level that they need to learn. just like a uni grad, they know the basics and the theory but rarely know how to apply it in the real world. They need to learn this. If there was no jump or requirement for learning then the TAC cup would be the same standard as the AFL. 

Yes, we've had lots of false starts since 2007, in both the football department and the administration. Yes it's disappointing. But that doesn't mean this is another one. 

If the pessimists can't seen the difference between the 2012 team (that had players like Sylvia, Blease, Gysberts, Howe, Bate, Bennell, Strauss, Morton, McKenzie, Petterd, Cook, Moloney, Tapscott, Sellar, Davis, Taggert, Bail, Tynan, Fitzpatrick, Nicholson, Evans and Magner) and the current lot, then they will remain pessimists forever. Do you seriously think the 2016 list is not a quantum improvement?

The current team is the youngest in the AFL. They have a huge amount of talent, But they will not be world beaters instantly, or even within three years. To think otherwise is just total delusion.

18 minutes ago, Chris said:

Yes they are coming from the same place and they do know the basics, it is how that is applied at the higher level that they need to learn. just like a uni grad, they know the basics and the theory but rarely know how to apply it in the real world. They need to learn this. If there was no jump or requirement for learning then the TAC cup would be the same standard as the AFL. 

But when players continue to make the same errors there is a problem

and that happens most weeks

32 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Yes, we've had lots of false starts since 2007, in both the football department and the administration. Yes it's disappointing. But that doesn't mean this is another one. 

If the pessimists can't seen the difference between the 2012 team (that had players like Sylvia, Blease, Gysberts, Howe, Bate, Bennell, Strauss, Morton, McKenzie, Petterd, Cook, Moloney, Tapscott, Sellar, Davis, Taggert, Bail, Tynan, Fitzpatrick, Nicholson, Evans and Magner) and the current lot, then they will remain pessimists forever. Do you seriously think the 2016 list is not a quantum improvement?

The current team is the youngest in the AFL. They have a huge amount of talent, But they will not be world beaters instantly, or even within three years. To think otherwise is just total delusion.

Agree.  I think some of us won't believe there is real improvement until we win a flag. 

I'm sure we have improved. But I don't think any of us can be sure that we will continue to improve to the point of getting into the top four or winning a flag.  We can hope with varying degrees of confidence. I see no reason to despair at this stage. 

Good thread!  Player development is another critical element which will determine how far we can progress with the current list, and I think most of us agree that the signs are very positive on this front.  We have already seen the likes of Gawn, Viney, Watts and Jetta come on in leaps and bounds under the current program.  If this scale and speed of development / improvement can be replicated by our talented youngsters (Salem, Brayshaw, Oliver, Petracca, Hogan and probably Hunt), then we will quickly have a bona fide 'finals ready' list, assuming we can retain all or most of them.  Add a few untried but talented kids with (apparently) high ceilings, who are currently being 'developed' at Casey (Weideman, Hulett and maybe White) and we will have a list which could take us deep into September in the not too distant future.  Of course there are lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' about this scenario, but imo, if we continue to teach and develop our current core list, while bolstering the known deficiencies discussed elsewhere on Demonland, we'll find ourselves in a very good place in 2 or 3 years.  I'm loving the ride right now, and have high expectations!

'To the toppermost of the poppermost!'

3 hours ago, sue said:

Agree.  I think some of us won't believe there is real improvement until we win a flag. 

I'm sure we have improved. But I don't think any of us can be sure that we will continue to improve to the point of getting into the top four or winning a flag.  We can hope with varying degrees of confidence. I see no reason to despair at this stage. 

Of course none of us, or anyone else for that matter can be sure of anything.  Was it 2005 that Hawks fans were calling for Clarkson's head, and maybe early 2007 Geelong fans called for Thompson to be sacked.  Things can change quickly with a talented list when things go right. GO DEES 

Next year we have Melksham, (Prestia and Hibbert) joining the team, along with a fit Lamumba. Plus another year on the kids, we'll continue to rise.

The pieces are coming together, which will allow us to further attract what we need to complete the team.  

It's going to be a long 2 weeks...

Everyone realises the port, saints and swans games were off 6 day breaks yeah?

Young team without the conditioning of the more seasoned clubs. In all three games early before fading...

I think pinning these losses on game style decision making is a bit of a stretch.

14 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I still find it hard to believe that these players are not utilizing fundamental skills during Paul Roos 3rd Year

i have at times had to learn very serious concepts at work in 3 days otherwise i cost the company money. 

After 3 years i am teaching these concepts to others

this is why i get so frustrated. 

Max Gawn has taken the jump but no one has followed him yet

You have to remember the players only get to put their craft into practice 110 hours per year. You can train but nothing compares to game day. And that is only if a player plays all 22 games  (and as has been said many players have only begun last year or this - it's not the same team thank God as 2014).

 

110 hours per year is equivalent to about 3 weeks of a FT job - it's incomparable. 

14 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But these kids have all been drafted from the same place. 

They should all have fundamental skills, those coming in should be ready at that level. 

Learning a workflow is not hard when you know the basics

our players stagnate as soon as any pressure is applied. 

You also have to remember that the players come up every week against someone trying to stifle their work. I know this can happen in the public service ( ) but overall most people don't have others trying to disrupt them when learning a "new craft".

14 hours ago, Je Roos Salem said:

Just because we're not quite in finals contention after 2.5 years doesn't mean there's some sort of bigger 5 year plan. It just means we aren't good enough. I acknowledge that there's been a youth focus this year in selection, and that could mean more waiting, and we're still working out a usable game plan and our best 22. One such plan was making finals in 2016 and we very likely will not. All I know is that most 3-5 year plans clubs talk about are BS. You can put all the right work in but then still shirk a contest, handball at a player's foot, and just not be good enough, or of course have other teams be better than you

Roos' focus has always been to prepare the side for the next coach. Winning 12 games this year to only win 10 next year isn't the goal. I think they're willing to forego some wins this year (winning 10 say) to win 12-14 next year. Keep in mind we are still developing, fielding the youngest team most weeks, while still being able to notch up wins (currently 6 & 7).

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/16328432/demons-closest-afl-flag-clubs-top-eight-says-gary-buckenara