14 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

the big problem about a watts being the third tall is that he would be useless in the ruck

He wouldn't be in ruck though, not as such. The role he played quite a bit last year was to come over the top as the third man, meaning you only need the 'ruckman' to take position, meaning the ruckman can be any biggish player.

I actually noted a couple of times last season how effective he was in that role, frequently setting up scoring chances with really deft taps to players, who often times were streaming towards goal. Two taps to Jones immediately come to mind, with both resulting in goals. 

His ability to hit the ball into the path of moving players is a skill no doubt honed by his years playing basketball. A variation was that brilliant bit of work where he jumped up on the goals line and palmed a ball down to Garlett who volleyed it through for a goal (against GC in the first round?)

22 minutes ago, stuie said:

Why would he have to ruck if there's at least 2 other talls there?

 

I really doubt Dawes will be available - he is still in the rehab group, Pederson isn't much value in the ruck and the other talls aren't ready except for Spencil who is no use in the forward line. We are light on for tall forwards. I want Watts in the forward line but I don't see where support for Gawn is going to come from

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by chook fowler

7 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I really doubt Dawes will be available - he is still in the rehab group, Pederson isn't much value in the ruck and the other talls aren't ready except for Spencil who is no use in the forward line. We are light on for tall forwards. I want Watts in the forward line but I don't see where support for Gawn is going to come from

It'll probably be Sam Frost this year, though I see him in the backline long-term.

6 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I really doubt Dawes will be available - he is still in the rehab group, Pederson isn't much value in the ruck and the other talls aren't ready except for Spencil who is no use in the forward line. We are light on for tall forwards. I want Watts in the forward line but I don't see where support for Gawn is going to come from

 

30 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

the big problem about a watts being the third tall is that he would be useless in the ruck

Ok, but you're the one who brought up Watts as a "third tall"....

 

The value of Frost playing forward and helping out in the ruck is that Maxy can then "rest" forward, providing another target up forward to stretch the opposition. Also like Frost as a defensive forward chasing and closing down opposition attempts to rebound, I think he'd be quite effective playing on Tommy Mac type CHB who wants to run and play on .  

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by PaulRB

13 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

The value of Frost playing forward and helping out in the ruck is that Maxy can then "rest" forward, providing another target up forward to stretch the opposition. Also like Frost as a defensive forward chasing and closing down opposition attempts to rebound, I think he'd be quite effective playing on Tommy Mac type CHB who wants to run and play on .  

Can see Gawn having a real impact while resting up forward.   But does 2nd ruck need to be a straight swap of positions?    As in, why can't Frost be backline and back-up ruck?

24 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

The value of Frost playing forward and helping out in the ruck is that Maxy can then "rest" forward, providing another target up forward to stretch the opposition. Also like Frost as a defensive forward chasing and closing down opposition attempts to rebound, I think he'd be quite effective playing on Tommy Mac type CHB who wants to run and play on .  

Agree that they might use him up forward as both tall player that will need to be manned up by a big guys, making it harder to cover Hogan and Dawes but also as a run with player as he seems to be athletic enough for that role. That said i reckon they might use him as a bit of a swing man who can cover a tall down back when needed and of course spend some time in the ruck.

Where did Roos play him in the game agianst GC in round one last year?

6 minutes ago, No10 said:

Can see Gawn having a real impact while resting up forward.   But does 2nd ruck need to be a straight swap of positions?    As in, why can't Frost be backline and back-up ruck?

It can be. There's 3 reasons why I don't like that formula:
1. If you're swapping a defender/ruck and the other team has 2 key forwards and 2 rucks (say North with Goldy, Petrie, Brown, Waite) then you might need 3 other taller defenders to swap with.

2. You don't get much rest these days with the moving zones and two way footy that most defenders play, whilst you can sneak a bit of a break as a deep forward. Less interchange will mean longer stints on field and I don't want someone doing 7 minutes in the ruck then having to play on a dangerous forward. Not to mention it's easier to get on and off the field rotating with a forward.

3. I think backlines in particularly still play best when working together and reasonably predictable combinations. That's obviously true for forwards as well, but in particular I think it helps if backmen know each others tendencies and when the spoil, leave their man etc.

 

28 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

The value of Frost playing forward and helping out in the ruck is that Maxy can then "rest" forward, providing another target up forward to stretch the opposition. Also like Frost as a defensive forward chasing and closing down opposition attempts to rebound, I think he'd be quite effective playing on Tommy Mac type CHB who wants to run and play on .  

There is as you say something to Maxy being up forward apart from "nice blokes kick goals" in that he just might get more "rest" time if our on ballers

are more successful. It could create more opportunities, more pressure, more to cover and more goals 

12 minutes ago, Georgiou R.R. Martin said:

It can be. There's 3 reasons why I don't like that formula:
1. If you're swapping a defender/ruck and the other team has 2 key forwards and 2 rucks (say North with Goldy, Petrie, Brown, Waite) then you might need 3 other taller defenders to swap with.

2. You don't get much rest these days with the moving zones and two way footy that most defenders play, whilst you can sneak a bit of a break as a deep forward. Less interchange will mean longer stints on field and I don't want someone doing 7 minutes in the ruck then having to play on a dangerous forward. Not to mention it's easier to get on and off the field rotating with a forward.

3. I think backlines in particularly still play best when working together and reasonably predictable combinations. That's obviously true for forwards as well, but in particular I think it helps if backmen know each others tendencies and when the spoil, leave their man etc.

 

Makes a lot of sense.   I really dislike seeing players out of their natural position though.   Especially agree that defense is such a unit, so not embedding Frost early surely doesn't help long term?  Assuming that's where he should play.

2nd ruck seems the big question looking ahead.

51 minutes ago, Georgiou R.R. Martin said:

It can be. There's 3 reasons why I don't like that formula:
1. If you're swapping a defender/ruck and the other team has 2 key forwards and 2 rucks (say North with Goldy, Petrie, Brown, Waite) then you might need 3 other taller defenders to swap with.

2. You don't get much rest these days with the moving zones and two way footy that most defenders play, whilst you can sneak a bit of a break as a deep forward. Less interchange will mean longer stints on field and I don't want someone doing 7 minutes in the ruck then having to play on a dangerous forward. Not to mention it's easier to get on and off the field rotating with a forward.

3. I think backlines in particularly still play best when working together and reasonably predictable combinations. That's obviously true for forwards as well, but in particular I think it helps if backmen know each others tendencies and when the spoil, leave their man etc.

 

Another reason would be that the opposition is more likely to be in attack when your second (backup) ruck is in the middle, meaning you'll need your defence solid., and not be resting your first ruck back there...

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by PaulRB

5 hours ago, Georgiou R.R. Martin said:

It can be. There's 3 reasons why I don't like that formula:
1. If you're swapping a defender/ruck and the other team has 2 key forwards and 2 rucks (say North with Goldy, Petrie, Brown, Waite) then you might need 3 other taller defenders to swap with.

2. You don't get much rest these days with the moving zones and two way footy that most defenders play, whilst you can sneak a bit of a break as a deep forward. Less interchange will mean longer stints on field and I don't want someone doing 7 minutes in the ruck then having to play on a dangerous forward. Not to mention it's easier to get on and off the field rotating with a forward.

3. I think backlines in particularly still play best when working together and reasonably predictable combinations. That's obviously true for forwards as well, but in particular I think it helps if backmen know each others tendencies and when the spoil, leave their man etc.

 

Quality argument.

Don't be surprised to see Oliver in rd 1

Am I the only one that hates the thought of Frost in the forward line? He is a great athlete and very competitive but if people are worried about Dawes taking a mark this also applied to Frost. I think he is an even worse mark and doesn't know how to play as a forward. I see a place for him long-term as a replacement for Dunn but with the distinct lack of skills and polish we have in the forwardline, Frost is not the answer. 

Pedo gets first crack at 2nd forward for me, a very good mark and decent shot on goal. It will likely be a temporary solution to a foil for Hogan but it's the best we have. If not Dawes gets the nod for me. When Gawn needs a rest we can play T Mac as a second ruck, he won't do great in the actual ruck contests but will be another runner and knows how to take the game on. Dunn and Garland can cover for him for 5 minute spurts.

I genuinely believe Frost is depth ATM, but it seems the coaches rate him higher than I do. Be that as it may, I don't want him up forward.

1 minute ago, Demonated said:

Am I the only one that hates the thought of Frost in the forward line? He is a great athlete and very competitive but if people are worried about Dawes taking a mark this also applied to Frost. I think he is an even worse mark and doesn't know how to play as a forward. I see a place for him long-term as a replacement for Dunn but with the distinct lack of skills and polish we have in the forwardline, Frost is not the answer. 

Pedo gets first crack at 2nd forward for me, a very good mark and decent shot on goal. It will likely be a temporary solution to a foil for Hogan but it's the best we have. If not Dawes gets the nod for me. When Gawn needs a rest we can play T Mac as a second ruck, he won't do great in the actual ruck contests but will be another runner and knows how to take the game on. Dunn and Garland can cover for him for 5 minute spurts.

I genuinely believe Frost is depth ATM, but it seems the coaches rate him higher than I do. Be that as it may, I don't want him up forward.

I agree. Showed very little in the games he did play up forward and in the ruck last season. It's the backline or nothing for me. O Mac is far more likely to be a forward.

10 minutes ago, Demonated said:

Am I the only one that hates the thought of Frost in the forward line? He is a great athlete and very competitive but if people are worried about Dawes taking a mark this also applied to Frost. I think he is an even worse mark and doesn't know how to play as a forward. I see a place for him long-term as a replacement for Dunn but with the distinct lack of skills and polish we have in the forwardline, Frost is not the answer. 

Pedo gets first crack at 2nd forward for me, a very good mark and decent shot on goal. It will likely be a temporary solution to a foil for Hogan but it's the best we have. If not Dawes gets the nod for me. When Gawn needs a rest we can play T Mac as a second ruck, he won't do great in the actual ruck contests but will be another runner and knows how to take the game on. Dunn and Garland can cover for him for 5 minute spurts.

I genuinely believe Frost is depth ATM, but it seems the coaches rate him higher than I do. Be that as it may, I don't want him up forward.

A lot can happen in the next 6 weeks or so. I do not see Frost getting a R1 start in the forwards Dawes or Pedometer (spell check did this and I liked it so left it) for me with it being a toss up if both fit and an easy decision if there is any doubt on Dawes calf.

Hogan, Pedometer and Watts as the main talls with Garlett, Kent and someone like Harmes at their feet.

On 1/29/2016 at 4:44 PM, DeeSpencer said:

It can be. There's 3 reasons why I don't like that formula:
1. If you're swapping a defender/ruck and the other team has 2 key forwards and 2 rucks (say North with Goldy, Petrie, Brown, Waite) then you might need 3 other taller defenders to swap with.

2. You don't get much rest these days with the moving zones and two way footy that most defenders play, whilst you can sneak a bit of a break as a deep forward. Less interchange will mean longer stints on field and I don't want someone doing 7 minutes in the ruck then having to play on a dangerous forward. Not to mention it's easier to get on and off the field rotating with a forward.

3. I think backlines in particularly still play best when working together and reasonably predictable combinations. That's obviously true for forwards as well, but in particular I think it helps if backmen know each others tendencies and when the spoil, leave their man etc.

 

Agree.

Assuming Frost is a defender, and I think that's his best position, then I rule out the possibility of him being a back-up ruckman.

My hope for Frost is that he takes over from Dunn as the second tall defender (after McDonald) which allows Dunn to be the third defender (easier for his height and he will win a lot of contests that way) and allows Garland to be a more aggressive half-back flanker, reading the play and zoning off as necessary. But I'm not sure Frost is ready yet, and like Demonated, I don't like Frost as a forward and don't want to see him there.

What's people's thoughts on Frost taking Dunn's spot in the backline and Dunn going to HF?

 

43 minutes ago, stuie said:

What's people's thoughts on Frost taking Dunn's spot in the backline and Dunn going to HF?

 

Only real problem is who then takes the relief ruck role 'stuie', I think this is the real reason Frost plays forward.

On 28 January 2016 at 8:54 PM, JV7 said:

 

9 minutes ago, rjay said:

Only real problem is who then takes the relief ruck role 'stuie', I think this is the real reason Frost plays forward.

Dunn is one of our best one on one defenders and leads/organizes our back line.  I'd prefer to see his big beautiful boot there than forward. Frosty will be fine as a forward, we've all only seen a few games of him in that position and while he didn't set the world on fire he has the speed and skills to develop into a good lead up forward. Have some faith in Roos, he wants him there for a reason.

I don't think Frost and McDonald can play in the same backline. Their kicking isn't good enough to carry both.

44 minutes ago, rjay said:

Only real problem is who then takes the relief ruck role 'stuie', I think this is the real reason Frost plays forward.

Dunn has played that role before though. There's only 2cm between them so wouldn't think there'd be a huge difference. Chances are Frost will play forward for now given our injuries and backline height, but just throwing a left field idea out there. Dunn looked pretty good in his forward forays last year.

 

20 minutes ago, stuie said:

Dunn has played that role before though. There's only 2cm between them so wouldn't think there'd be a huge difference. Chances are Frost will play forward for now given our injuries and backline height, but just throwing a left field idea out there. Dunn looked pretty good in his forward forays last year.

 

Dunn is a serviceable forward. He has turned into an excellent lock down defender. The bloke has been thrown around over the course of his career more than a tv remote. He's finally found his position and other than the occasional forward stint as circumstances dictate, that position is where he should stay imo.

Re Frost, I wouldn't say he isn't ready to slot into the back six. The issue is whether he is comparatively the best option, and if he can be slotted in whilst maintaining the right balance. I don't see Garlo as a HBF option. Having all four of these guys is arguably both too tall and too many liabilities by foot.  I also don't see Frost as a long term option forward, but it may not be the worst thing for his development playing on the opposition's seasoned defenders.

The NAB will hopefully reveal a lot more about what the best setup shall be.

Inside Football's Best Demon's 22 - Brett Anderson (Dees supporter)

Jetta I Dunn I Garland

Salem I McDonald I Lumumba

Brayshaw I Vince I Tyson

vandenBerg I Dawes I Kent

Garlett I Hogan I Petracca

R: Gawn I Jones I Viney

I: Frost I Kennedy I Watts I Bugg

 

Edited January 31, 20169 yr by ProDee

16 minutes ago, P-man said:

Dunn is a serviceable forward. He has turned into an excellent lock down defender. The bloke has been thrown around over the course of his career more than a tv remote. He's finally found his position and other than the occasional forward stint as circumstances dictate, that position is where he should stay imo.

Re Frost, I wouldn't say he isn't ready to slot into the back six. The issue is whether he is comparatively the best option, and if he can be slotted in whilst maintaining the right balance. I don't see Garlo as a HBF option. Having all four of these guys is arguably both too tall and too many liabilities by foot.  I also don't see Frost as a long term option forward, but it may not be the worst thing for his development playing on the opposition's seasoned defenders.

The NAB will hopefully reveal a lot more about what the best setup shall be.

When Dunn initially went back he failed.   IMO he had his nose outa joint, maybe feeling insulted.   His heart appeared to not be in it as a defender.  Could this be a part of our OLD stinking soft culture that pervaded this once great club?

 

nowadays with personal changes over the last 5 years cleanout & slowly putting the pieces back together, He is now a senior player with integrity,  as an AFL footy player.  But geez it took some doing to get to this point.

 

this should not happen be allowed to happen at our club.... the culture of a Tail wagging so-called Dog... cart before horse,,, arze about.  we had it.  & woe any kids coming into that player culture..

 

the clubs OFF field leaders had No Idea.

 

.