1 minute ago, ProDee said:

I don't want to sound controversial and I'm rapt with his output when one considers his previous years, but he's really only at minimum levels. 

But I am thankful and hopefully he's drawn a line for the rest of the season and for future years. 

Id pretty much agree, caveat..Jacks minimum is much better a quality of football than some other's ceiling 

Youd have to think he could play another 5-6 years  ( barring injury )  if he keeps getting incrementally better...and stronger  ( physically and mentally )  it will be good to watch.

I think the penny has dropped.   oooorah !!

1 minute ago, stuie said:

Instead of being the class dope, annunciate what you disagree with. 

If you can. 

I wouldn't agree with Jacks output being at minimum levels, I think he has been a lot  better than that.

8 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Instead of being the class dope, annunciate what you disagree with. 

If you can. 

 

13 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I don't want to sound controversial and I'm rapt with his output when one considers his previous years, but he's really only at minimum levels. 

But I am thankful and hopefully he's drawn a line for the rest of the season and for future years. 

Parts I think are incorrect are in bold just for your pedantic self.

Expectation is a piece of string, although seemingly you like to change the length of yours depending on the point you want to make.

He's clearly been better than "minimum levels" so obviously you are wanting to sound controversial. Maybe I'll start calling you Prince?

 

2 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

I wouldn't agree with Jacks output being at minimum levels, I think he has been a lot  better than that.

I think we are still only seeing the start of what he can truly produce though.

Its taken a while for Jack to get t whatever point of comfort it is that he feels capable of impacting games.  This is, i guess, the new baseline. He'll get better and as his team mates see it theyll become even more inclusive. Jack as the 3rd tall in the forward arc will become very very dangerous ( especially when we cement the 2nd tall.. ....and resign the 1st...lol )

Jacks always had the brain for this game, now he's bringing the game.

To say that he's only at minimum levels is a little harsh, but it really depends on how you rate him as a player because he's doing well and truly more than enough to warrant selection each week. In terms of his ceiling, I think he can be a lot better. But he's tracking very well this season.

Further to that, it's not just that more quality players around the ball are helping JW. He has found a toughness in the contest that I wasn't so sure he possessed. He's going hard at the ball, chasing harder than every before and it's showing in his overall performance.

Jack's development this year has made me very, very happy.

1 hour ago, stuie said:

 

Parts I think are incorrect are in bold just for your pedantic self.

Expectation is a piece of string, although seemingly you like to change the length of yours depending on the point you want to make.

He's clearly been better than "minimum levels" so obviously you are wanting to sound controversial. Maybe I'll start calling you Prince?

 

I preface most comments on Watts with almost an apology for sensitive souls like you.  But in reality that preface has nothing to do with what I actually said.  

So you're saying that he's exceeding YOUR minimum levels ?  Is that it ?  Do we simply disagree on what you think is reasonable and a minimum output and what I think the bar should be ?

If so, what makes you the arbiter on what is and isn't a base level for Watts.

In his 8th year and with his natural talent I can't imagine anyone who'd be happy with less.  I even set my parameters preseason when I said he should kick 40 goals.  Naturally, you scoffed because you have no vision. 

The only person who'd be happy with less is you. 

Edited June 15, 20169 yr by ProDee

He is on way to 40 goals , already kicked 20 before the halfway mark

6 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I preface most comments on Watts with almost an apology for sensitive souls like you.  But in reality that preface has nothing to do with what I actually said.  

So you're saying that he's exceeding YOUR minimum levels ?  Is that it ?  Do we simply disagree on what you think is reasonable and a minimum output and what I think the bar should be ?

If so, what makes you the arbiter on what is and isn't a base level for Watts.

In his 8th year and with his natural talent I can't imagine anyone who'd be happy with less.  I even set my parameters preseason when I said he should kick 40 goals.  Naturally, you scoffed because you have no vision. 

The only person who's be happy with less is you. 

Expectation = piece of string mate... I scoffed at your "40 goals" quota as simple minds put such statistical requirements on a player whose talents are pretty clearly not measured in stats, let alone 1 stat in isolation.

He's playing better than you thought he would, that would say to me he's exceeding your expectations, which would put him above the "minimum level", unless of course you were the type of person to never admit when you're wrong and try to change the parameters of a discussion to suit that need while simultaneously defending their own weak points with constant barbs and retorts to once again ensure the gun gets pointed elsewhere, anywhere else other than the actual point in question.

But hey, that doesn't sound like you at all....

Now, please provide a photo of YOUR arbiter license so you can resume your supercilious pontifications.

 

5 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

He is on way to 40 goals , already kicked 20 before the halfway mark

Rest assured, those goal posts will be moved eventually. Mark my words.

 

Having a fantastic year and I desperately hope he chooses to re-sign with the club.

Anyone provide speculation on the latest contract development?

 

Jack's done well this year and hopefully he'll keep it up, my only criticism is his tackling it is, at times, awful.

Sometimes when he has been fully involved in a chase down, he may not have the required energy to bring down an opponent, but sometimes he just flings his arms out as some sort of token.

He's playing harder than he has before and if he could tidy up his tackling and bring a few down, making sure they felt it, that would be sensational.  Bernie could give him a few lessons.

I put this in the game day thread then forgot there was like 100 Jack Watts threads. 

 

I just love the fact that with his hard work and loyalty and getting the correct coaches to help develop him that he is now showing us all what he is capable of. 

Watts would have to be one of the mentally strongest players in the AFL. 

i feel really proud of him just like one of my own kids as I always have had belief in him. 

I thought that all our talls were very good and Jack just keeps getting better. We surprised a lot of Pie's with our hardness, endurance & skill. Go Dee's!!!

I take the point that his tackling can lack urgency but it's time people got over the fact he was a number one draft pick.

He is an integral part of the side right now, adds real class, is one of the best users of the ball we have, is incredibly skilled below his knees and would have more score assists than any of our players.

And besides that, has had a more productive career than Kreuzer or Gibbs who have been subjected to nothing like the same scrutiny.

I dont think any of us could possibly cope with the level of scrutiny most  (all) of which has been negative this bloke copped in the media

It clearly impacted upon his game and enjoyment of footy. At eighteen this guy was just a kid. He didnt have the body of a Hogan.

Yes other 18yo olds have come in and smashed the game but we all develop differently. I for one cant believe I wasnt incarcerated for the dumb things I did when that age.

In the history of Afl, I cannot recollect the same amount of attention this number one draft pick had. How could it not have a negative impact?

I believe what we are seeing now is the real Jack. He has finally shaken the crap he copped.

And yea he doesn't play as a superstar but he has become a very good player. Even if he averages 15 o 16 disposals he always makes excellent use of them compared to some players who get over 20 and then handball into the oppositions open arms.

If we track his growth chart then we have reason to believe that he will continue to excel. Confidence cannot be underestimated and Jack had zilch in previous years for good reason.

I would mind seeing him play at full forward full time as it would allow Hogan to roam around taking ten marks a game.

 

Edited June 15, 20169 yr by leave it to deever
spelling

Amazed and rapt to see him rucking.  It takes real aerial courage to line up against the likes of Witts at the centre bounce (rubbish free kick against Jack in one contest too).   I think that is really adding to his aerial confidence.  He's been really flying for some marks but just not sticking them, one where he came from behind Howe to get front position and almost take a slips catch was terrific, but it just didn't stick.  If he starts to stick them - look out.

15 minutes ago, pitmaster said:

I take the point that his tackling can lack urgency but it's time people got over the fact he was a number one draft pick.

He is an integral part of the side right now, adds real class, is one of the best users of the ball we have, is incredibly skilled below his knees and would have more score assists than any of our players.

And besides that, has had a more productive career than Kreuzer or Gibbs who have been subjected to nothing like the same scrutiny.

I like Jack and I'm glad to see him take the next step to becoming a seriously good player, my only concern is his tackling and it isn't a major concern. If he could tidy this up he could become a more complete player and maybe earn a few more free kicks and goals.

 

 

2 hours ago, stuie said:

Expectation = piece of string mate... I scoffed at your "40 goals" quota as simple minds put such statistical requirements on a player whose talents are pretty clearly not measured in stats, let alone 1 stat in isolation.

He's playing better than you thought he would, that would say to me he's exceeding your expectations, which would put him above the "minimum level", unless of course you were the type of person to never admit when you're wrong and try to change the parameters of a discussion to suit that need while simultaneously defending their own weak points with constant barbs and retorts to once again ensure the gun gets pointed elsewhere, anywhere else other than the actual point in question.

But hey, that doesn't sound like you at all....

Now, please provide a photo of YOUR arbiter license so you can resume your supercilious pontifications.

 

You're a dope, Stu.

Of course he's playing better than I thought he would.  Have a look at my avatar.

But once he had a terrific preseason, once he said that he was going to play permanent forward (this year) and once he acknowledged he needed to kick more goals it was reasonable to set scoreboard impact as one of the first measuring sticks.  I thought he could and should kick 40 goals in this new role.  You're a dope and naturally scoffed.  You have no vision or footy cred.  

Jack Gunston is a very good player.  He's a better player than Watts.  I don't expect Watts to kick 50+ goals (would be great if he did), but playing the Gunston role 40 goals was reasonable.  And he should do it to cap off a good year.  In 4 completed years at Hawthorn Gunston has averaged over 2 goals per game in every one.  The last 2 years he's kicked over 50.  He'll do it again this year.  Do you think Gunston has a goal/output target for the year, or is that too "stringy" for you.

Why you and others set the bar so low is beyond me.  He's having his first good year in 8 and dopes like you think it's wonderful and not a minimum required standard.  Now that he's worked out what AFL footy is about it should be the standard.  

And I have zero doubt that it's a standard for him, his coaches and teammates.  Or do you think they'll be happy with less ?

Edited June 15, 20169 yr by ProDee

2 hours ago, stuie said:

I'm disappointed in you Stuie.

I would have thought a gif of the umpire to Gawn from the weekend would have been used at first opportunity. 

33 minutes ago, ProDee said:

You're a dope, Stu.

Of course he's playing better than I thought he would.  Have a look at may avatar.

But once he had a terrific preseason, once he said that he was going to play permanent forward (this year) and once he acknowledged he needed to kick more goals it was reasonable to set scoreboard impact as one of the first measuring sticks.  I thought he could and should kick 40 goals in this new role.  You're a dope and naturally scoffed.  You have no vision or footy cred.  

Jack Gunston is a very good player.  He's a better player than Watts.  I don't expect Watts to kick 50+ goals (would be great if he did), but playing the Gunston role 40 goals was reasonable.  And he should do it to cap off a good year.  In 4 completed years at Hawthorn Gunston has averaged over 2 goals per game in every one.  The last 2 years he's kicked over 50.  He'll do it again this year.  Do you think Gunston has a goal/output target for the year, or is that too "stringy" for you.

Why you and others set the bar so low is beyond me.  He's having his first good year in 8 and dopes like you think it's wonderful and not a minimum required standard.  Now that he's worked out what AFL footy is about it should be the standard.  

And I have zero doubt that it's a standard for him, his coaches and teammates.  Or do you think they'll be happy with less ?

8 hours ago, DeeMfc said:

Is it too early to bump this post?

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. He's been good first half of season but still very underwhelming over his career

Im not upset about being wrong though

6 hours ago, ProDee said:

But once he had a terrific preseason, once he said that he was going to play permanent forward (this year) and once he acknowledged he needed to kick more goals it was reasonable to set scoreboard impact as one of the first measuring sticks.  I thought he could and should kick 40 goals in this new role.  You're a dope and naturally scoffed.  You have no vision or footy cred.  

Jack Gunston is a very good player.  He's a better player than Watts.  I don't expect Watts to kick 50+ goals (would be great if he did), but playing the Gunston role 40 goals was reasonable.  

He's having his first good year in 8 and dopes like you think it's wonderful and not a minimum required standard.  Now that he's worked out what AFL footy is about it should be the standard.  

And I have zero doubt that it's a standard for him, his coaches and teammates.  Or do you think they'll be happy with less ?

I agree he is at minimum standard, assuming you mean his minimum standard, if that makes sense. As you say the way he has played most of this season is minimum required standard, particularly his competitiveness.

As someone else pointed out one of the impressive things about this season is how consistent he has been across games (but not as you have said always within games). This is super important as we can see the impact of forwards going missing in some games, in particular Kent and Gartlett.

As i have said before 40 goals is what he should have been aiming for, though i would have been happy with 30-35 (perhaps setting the bar to low).

Hard to argue that Gunston is the better player. At the moment. He has the runs on the board - though i would argue as permanent forward who's key go is marks on the lead he has benefited from one of the best mid fields ever and had Franklin, Roughie, Rioli and Bruest to keep defenders busy.

But i can see Watts being better eventually as he is as classy and with his capacity to play up the ground he has few more strings to his bow. He will also benefit from an improving midfield and a forward line that soon will not be far off the Hawks one i just mentioned. But he would need to go up a level and also put 2-3 more really good seasons together.

To go up a level he will need to keep being consistent, but also have a handful of games where he get 20 plus possessions (dragging his disposal average up above the 15 or it is at the moment) and one or two games per season where he blitzes the opposition and bags 5 or 6 goals. I think he has both of those things in him as he builds toward 150 games, his confidence keeps rising and the team around him keeps rising.

We'll see. Perhaps my call from 3 years ago that he would make AA might come true. That might be a good bet!

By the by i'm loving the avatar PD - warms my heart every time i see it and has allowed me to migrate to two of my favourite ever dees players.

Edited June 15, 20169 yr by binman

8 hours ago, ProDee said:

I don't want to sound controversial and I'm rapt with his output when one considers his previous years, but he's really only at minimum levels. 

But I am thankful and hopefully he's drawn a line for the rest of the season and for future years. 

Bit harsh saying that's minimum levels. Averaging 2 goals a game (in the top 20 of the league) and averages 15 disposals a game @ 80% efficiency. Has kicked more goals then the likes of Tom Lynch (Adelaide), same as Rioli (and gets heaps more disposals than him). If he could average the same amount of disposals as Lynch, and can kick 50 goals a year, he will become a genuine star of the competition. 

Expect next year to be even better as he continues to improve his fitness base.

2 minutes ago, demon9 said:

Expect next year to be even better as he continues to improve his fitness base.

Fitness isn't an issue.