On 14/10/2015 at 00:48, Good Times Grimes said:

They made the playoffs six years in a row and were always competitive. They brought in some very good players and looked fantastic on paper, but they never gelled as a team and injuries took their toll as well. It's a very similar situation to the Cats, except they never tasted ultimate success.

Its not the same though... and nor is the way we build teams in respective sports

I know what youre alluding to.... but I still would consider it folly not to look to trading future picks.. not all of them and not necessarily 1st rounders either.

Are we keeping our powder dry?

  On 14/10/2015 at 00:53, Wiseblood said:

They still have no ruckman, with Wells even admitting today it's going to be a struggle to get Zac Smith to the club after they've traded away 3 picks already, and their defence is aging with Taylor, Lonergan, Mackie and Enright all set to retire in the next couple of years.

No doubt they will be competitive but they still have some major holes in their line up to go with some kids who still have plenty to prove.

Or I could just be hoping like hell that the Cats are still a middle of the road team.

They finished just outside the 8 and already this trade period have added 3 very good players, all of whom will give them at least 5 years of service each.

I just think we're perceiving it from an MFC point of view, where it's pretty different to our situation. They could very well challenge next year now, and in the end footy is about premierships right? So you'd rather get some guns who you know will deliver and have a crack the next year than spend 5-6 years developing kids so that hopefully they turn out ok and you can maybe have a crack in 6 years time. With a few of their players probably retiring in a few years, wouldn't you try and get the most out of them by putting some more stars around them and having a shot at a flag. rather than just using them as basically coaches for 18 year olds?

Just a small heads up:

Marty Pask, who manages Dion Prestia, is going to be on Trade Radio at 12pm. I'm assuming he will just re-iterate his stance that Prestia will see out his contract but it will probably still be worth a listen so we can all dissect the tone and emotion of how he says it so some can hold on to the hope that we will still get him this year.

Carlton seem to be the suppliers of forwards to other clubs, and yet they don't keep any. WTF

  On 14/10/2015 at 00:53, Wiseblood said:

They still have no ruckman, with Wells even admitting today it's going to be a struggle to get Zac Smith to the club after they've traded away 3 picks already, and their defence is aging with Taylor, Lonergan, Mackie and Enright all set to retire in the next couple of years.

No doubt they will be competitive but they still have some major holes in their line up to go with some kids who still have plenty to prove.

Or I could just be hoping like hell that the Cats are still a middle of the road team.

can't they use that other bloke they have....... .........

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:01, beelzebub said:

can't they use that other bloke they have....... .........

Polly Clark?.... errr..... Mitch Farmer? Sorry, just can't remember.

  On 14/10/2015 at 00:59, stuie said:

They finished just outside the 8 and already this trade period have added 3 very good players, all of whom will give them at least 5 years of service each.

I just think we're perceiving it from an MFC point of view, where it's pretty different to our situation. They could very well challenge next year now, and in the end footy is about premierships right? So you'd rather get some guns who you know will deliver and have a crack the next year than spend 5-6 years developing kids so that hopefully they turn out ok and you can maybe have a crack in 6 years time. With a few of their players probably retiring in a few years, wouldn't you try and get the most out of them by putting some more stars around them and having a shot at a flag. rather than just using them as basically coaches for 18 year olds?

I'm not arguing against the players they traded in - clearly if Melbourne got all 3 of those players it would instantly make us a much, much better side. Dangerfield would transform us as a club just on his own. Selwood and Henderson are serviceable players who, if fit, will also add something to their side as well.

The only argument I'm making is that, if they don't get another flag in the next few years, then even with these guys their premiership window may slam shut and they would have mortgaged their future in doing so. It's a risk, but I guess if you don't take risks then you don't give yourself a chance at winning a flag. As well as the four players mentioned above they will also lose Bartel soon as well, and with Kelly, Johnson and Stokes all moving on as well that takes a large chunk of their experience with them.

They may well challenge and be a Top 4 side next year, but will it all be worth it in the long run? Time will tell I guess.

Full credit to Geelong for their work this trade period. Not only have they landed three quality players, but they have made deals go through smoothly by compromising where required, instead of stubbornly demanding pick 596 be added to sweeten the deal. Other clubs could learn a lesson or two from them.

Anyone who thinks that Geelong will fall sharply in a year or two is kidding themselves. Their best players are in their mid 20s (Selwood, Hawkins, Motlop, etc) and they have enough quality kids in the mix to keep the production line going for a fair bit longer.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:01, beelzebub said:

can't they use that other bloke they have....... .........

Sorry bb but I seem to have forgotten his name.

Can you remind me again?????????????????

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:03, Wiseblood said:

I'm not arguing against the players they traded in - clearly if Melbourne got all 3 of those players it would instantly make us a much, much better side. Dangerfield would transform us as a club just on his own. Selwood and Henderson are serviceable players who, if fit, will also add something to their side as well.

The only argument I'm making is that, if they don't get another flag in the next few years, then even with these guys their premiership window may slam shut and they would have mortgaged their future in doing so. It's a risk, but I guess if you don't take risks then you don't give yourself a chance at winning a flag. As well as the four players mentioned above they will also lose Bartel soon as well, and with Kelly, Johnson and Stokes all moving on as well that takes a large chunk of their experience with them.

They may well challenge and be a Top 4 side next year, but will it all be worth it in the long run? Time will tell I guess.

Well we've had all the top picks you could wish for and we're only just starting to dig our way out of the bottom of the ladder, so let's not get too obsessed with the draft. I guess that's my point.

As for will it be worth it? Would you take a premiership next year if it meant we might struggle the next 4-5 years after it?

  On 14/10/2015 at 00:44, Good Times Grimes said:

Yes, I absolutely agree that they will be competitive next year. I never stated otherwise. I think that they will be in trouble in the future when their experienced players retire and they don't have the young guns coming in to replace them.

I probably just have a skewed view from having supported so many terrible teams for so long and having seen them go through prolonged pain after trading future picks.

I for one hope you're right. There is no doubt they are taking a gamble and i reckon it is one that will put them under a fair bit of pressure. Surely top 4 is a minimum pass and that certainly is going to be a challenge. In fact Danger has already said to be careful of expecting him to be the messiah. I hope their fans go way over the top with their expectations and the cats can't deliver.

  On 14/10/2015 at 00:42, beelzebub said:

Consider the logic of this ..

Yes.....They did it AT THE WRONG TIME!!!!

The Cats climbed up there in 2007 & will not relinquish that position of Fight until every avenue has been explored...

Their recruiting this year may backfire...as the world May end

But at least the supporters know the club has had a real serious crack unlike the MFC who always dredges up excuses for each years failure.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:07, stuie said:

Well we've had all the top picks you could wish for and we're only just starting to dig our way out of the bottom of the ladder, so let's not get too obsessed with the draft. I guess that's my point.

As for will it be worth it? Would you take a premiership next year if it meant we might struggle the next 4-5 years after it?

Absolutely, but you can't use this argument until it happens.

  On 14/10/2015 at 00:54, iv said:

The obvious comparison is Hawthorn. Astute trading and drafting, a strong development culture within and fantastic admin (Chris Fagan, Cam Bruce and Oozer, please come home) have seen a remarkable footy club attain a massive feat, which, at the moment, we can only dream of. Sustained success has seen players want to go there (g'day Chip) not for the money, but for premiership success. I would think this is the very thing the Cats are trying to emulate and I am of the view they are well positioned, if not to replicate the Hawks success, but to secure a successful medium to long term future.

But by way of other comparisons, AFL clubs that have been made to stand out of drafts for one reason or another in recent history have really struggled for years afterwards.

Geelong have virtually done to themselves what Essendon were made to do by the AFL.

It's a huge gamble, with a good chance of blowing up in their faces.

Makes me sick seeing Geelong rack up players at will.

Not that Henderson or Selwood are great players, but they seem to be getting all the deals done while it's all silent on our end.

We can't even get the Melksham deal done, and nobody is even interested in him FFS!

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:07, stuie said:

Well we've had all the top picks you could wish for and we're only just starting to dig our way out of the bottom of the ladder, so let's not get too obsessed with the draft. I guess that's my point.

As for will it be worth it? Would you take a premiership next year if it meant we might struggle the next 4-5 years after it?

Of course I would stuie. I asked the question of will it be worth it more in relation to if they don't win a flag will trading all those picks have been worth it. I'm probably letting my hatred of Geelong cloud my judgement a little though so I'm happy to admit that.

As for draft picks - I agree. We put too much stock in draft picks and their value. Melbourne supporters should understand this better than anyone. But you do need an influx of youth coming through and missed a few years of getting some of those quality players could hamper you in the long term. I'm not saying it will, only that it could.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:09, Good Times Grimes said:

Absolutely, but you can't use this argument until it happens.

Exactly the same as the vice versa with saying they've mortgaged their future...

I am in a conundrum - I want Geelong to fail badly but I don't want Carlton to get a good pick...

Let's hope Geelong are middle of the road next year, then terrible after that.

It's the best of scenarios!

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:09, Wiseblood said:

Of course I would stuie. I asked the question of will it be worth it more in relation to if they don't win a flag will trading all those picks have been worth it. I'm probably letting my hatred of Geelong cloud my judgement a little though so I'm happy to admit that.

As for draft picks - I agree. We put too much stock in draft picks and their value. Melbourne supporters should understand this better than anyone. But you do need an influx of youth coming through and missed a few years of getting some of those quality players could hamper you in the long term. I'm not saying it will, only that it could.

I guess the way I look at it is Geelong have gone about their business, not really bothered with the draft in a big way and have won 3 flags.

We've been obsessed with the draft and high picks and we're celebrating having 7 wins...

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:03, iv said:

Polly Clark?.... errr..... Mitch Farmer? Sorry, just can't remember.

Biclavs is their principal ruckman now.

To follow the arguments about Geelong, just because they have traded 3 players into the club won't get them across the line necessarily.

S.Selwood is not Joel, and the fact that WCE failed to match the bid indicates even they don't think he is all that great, despite their bleatings after the event.

Dangerfield is one of the top A-grade players in the competition, but he got himself to Geelong, not the other way around.

Henderson...Smith.....maybe, maybe not.

As Wise has noted their backline is ageing quickly. They lost Rivers this year and haven't replaced him. They have also lost S Johnson, who probably won them half a dozen games off his own boot.

AND they were beaten by a bottom 6 side at their home ground this year and didn't make the finals.

They have thrown everything at getting into finals again, ( rightly so at their point of development), but it will not win them a Premiership. Hawthorn is the model for that. They don't bring 4 mature players into the side in 1 year and throw away their top draft picks.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:11, stuie said:

I guess the way I look at it is Geelong have gone about their business, not really bothered with the draft in a big way and have won 3 flags.

We've been obsessed with the draft and high picks and we're celebrating having 7 wins...

True. I can't really argue with that. The Cats, however, did win their 3 flags on the back of very good drafting and some very handy father/son players falling in to their lap. They may have added the odd player, like Ottens, that helped put them over the top but if you look back through their list the majority of their premiership players were drafted in, not traded for.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:09, Wiseblood said:

Of course I would stuie. I asked the question of will it be worth it more in relation to if they don't win a flag will trading all those picks have been worth it. I'm probably letting my hatred of Geelong cloud my judgement a little though so I'm happy to admit that.

As for draft picks - I agree. We put too much stock in draft picks and their value. Melbourne supporters should understand this better than anyone. But you do need an influx of youth coming through and missed a few years of getting some of those quality players could hamper you in the long term. I'm not saying it will, only that it could.

And that's the point - it will only pay off if it gets them a flag. Even if it gets them into the top 4 for 2 or 3 years, if they don't win a flag, there could be a huge price to pay.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:13, Wiseblood said:

True. I can't really argue with that. The Cats, however, did win their 3 flags on the back of very good drafting and some very handy father/son players falling in to their lap. They may have added the odd player, like Ottens, that helped put them over the top but if you look back through their list the majority of their premiership players were drafted in, not traded for.

Agreed. But I think they took a more holistic approach to building their list as opposed to just being focused on the draft.

  On 14/10/2015 at 01:09, Akum said:

But by way of other comparisons, AFL clubs that have been made to stand out of drafts for one reason or another in recent history have really struggled for years afterwards.

Geelong have virtually done to themselves what Essendon were made to do by the AFL.

It's a huge gamble, with a good chance of blowing up in their faces.

Wouldn't call it huge, but gee, I would love to be in their position and have the same opportunity to place such a bet.