Some serious questions asked about Paul Roos ...

[Moonshadow 17,677]

Roos is on the right track and will prove most of us wrong.Cannot wait for the next batch of replacement players!

^^ this.

Though I'd replace 'most' with 'some'.

[Sir Why You Little 37,126]

Personally, I think he is naively honest with players and where they stand - I think players who have their futures stamped or up in the air is the only way you get 39 goals to 2 in first quarters for a month up to last week.

i hope you are right, because if the whole team was in fact trying we are still in a world of pain.

[Guest]

Nah

I would suggest the definition of a 'peanut' to be somebody who bases their analysis of the situation solely on whatver happened yesterday

The fact is that we were absolutely awful as a side for 8 of the 10 last games. Go and look at the results yourself and tell me this is not a fact.

Yesterday was very good. We were very good in 4 or 5 of our other 6 wins also. Maybe 1 or 2 'honourable' losses - but the other 14-16 rounds of footy we were deadset dreadful.

To state the bleeding obvious we need to work on that ratio, there is still a huge problem for mine that is represented by the fact we came out 4 weeks in a row with zero intention of playing a game of footy.

The distance we are from the top 4 or so sides is still alarmingly great.

A very long way to go.

Speaking of peanuts, look who has come along!

If that was some kind of shot at myself, I would suggest you are severely misguided and to take the Satyriconhome defence, you need to accurately read the rest of the post. In Saty's case that was usually a deflection, but in this case it holds true.

The statement I made was that you would have to be a deadset nuffie to be peddling the line that we aren't better than we were under Neeld. Let's look at Roos' first two years in charge. We have gone from two to four to seven wins and improved percentage in each of those years. You surely can't take offence to that assertion. I don't even need to spin statistics. It's as clear as day.

I also, like you, stated that we have a way to go. Facts are when you inherit the most visible role in the worst professional sporting club in Australia, you can't expect overnight miracles. Do you really want me to go over the list of grade A screw ups that took place from 2008 to 2012? Not just on the playing front but on the admin front? The worst screw up (besides the very lacklustre results which I believe come down to a fairly sub par playing list) I have seen is when Roosy has talked about the past and negativity. Compared to the Essendonian scale screw ups of before, that's small beer.

It's part of Roos' (and a lot of other people's) job to fix that but clearly the pendulum is ticking upwards.

If you took offence to my belief that anyone who had dealt in extreme hyperbole during the season should take a good look in the mirror then that shows implicit acceptance that you could have been perceived to have engaged said hyperbole. Did you?

And lastly, I have been consistent in my beliefs concerning where this club needs to go. I got a little shirty and got a little too defensive when the Gaz Man came out and potted Roosy after the Carlton game as it bought back bad memories of 186 when Gaz got Bailey sacked via radio interview.

I have always stuck firm to the following:

1) What matters is the win/loss column after 22 rounds. Win 7 to 8 this year (which we have) and then 10 to 12 next year and Simon Goodwin will be set up with a pretty handy team.

2) The core of players from 2008-2011 will never be the players we need them to be. Many of them will need to be progressively (not suddenly) superseded by a newer generation. This newer generation needs to however be supported by experienced hands so they are not smashed from minute dot.

3) Administrative stability and merit based appointments are key. I have covered this before.

P.S. I like your line about 8 of the last weeks being terrible. Granted some of the performances weren't brilliant but I would prefer what happened this year where we showed something 13-14 times (or even better yet, won which we did 7 times) compared to the 2 times we spluttered over the line or the 3 times we beat up on the expansion teams and fluked a win over Essendon as the drugs scandal was about to explode.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Colin B. Flaubert

[Akum 2,660]

On balance I think Roos has been really good for the club but like everything there is good and bad. ...

...

Many have rightly questioned the succession plan. I think it's been very successful. If Roos' tenure had been open ended imagine the conjecture now or worse still if he decided he didn't want to do it anymore.

...

Roos is a great builder - a team builder, a list builder, and a club builder. He has great intelligence and integrity, and above all, leadership quality.

There is no doubt that he & PJ have done an outstanding job in building the club. His list building has been sensational so far, and no doubt will be extended over the next few months. The team building has been solid in that he's given us a team structure that, when we can maintain it, we are actually very hard to beat.

But this structure has been pulled apart too easily by too many other sides through careful planning & strategy, which we haven't been able to counter. Roos' preference is to let the players work it out, and while that worked great for the Swans team from 2005 to 2010 (and after), it hasn't had the same impact with this team in 2015.

It's now an ideal time for someone to step in who's a "modern" (for want of a better word) coach. A "modern" coach has usually had intensive formal study of every element of the game, including strategy & tactics, and has had an apprenticeship of several years as part of a strong coaching panel with successful clubs in whom they've had an influential aspect is some way, before they take over a team that's lower on the ladder but which shows promise.

Roos, in fact, had none of these. He was drafted in as interim coach when Eade was sacked, and did so well that at the end of the year, the players forced the club to renege on the deal they'd made with Wallace. The Swans' strategy was pretty straightforward, but they had a great team with great leaders and that's all they needed.

It's worth considering that apart from Roos, there are only 3 senior coaches in 2010 when Roos retired who are still coaching now - Clarko & Lyon (who are outstanding innovators who have the ability to reinvent themselves and their teams) and good ol' Rocket. All the other 14 teams have "modern" coaches who have all come in over the past 5 years. There's been a generational change.

Over the past two years we've needed, above all else, Roos' leadership, and his building of our team, our list & our club. We'll need him to continue all this next year. But it's now time for a "modern" coach to counter the plans & strategies by which our structure has been pulled apart, or maybe to give us a "game plan" that will hold together under pressure no matter how hard the other side tries to pull it apart. I hope to God that Goody's the guy - though there's every reason to believe that he is.

I think the timing is perfect. The thing I most admire about Roos is that while he knows what he's the best at, he also knows his limitations. He's not the egomaniac control freak who has to have a hand in everything. He's big on bringing others forward where he's lacking, and he's big on succession planning. Like only the greatest of leaders.

[JimmyNP 174]

Too all those media peanuts and supporters who think Roos has done a sh!t job this year are kidding themselves. Where's the heat coming for Alan Richardson?? Buckley?? Richardson and St.Kilda have been let off by the media all year but Roosy has copped it left, right and centre.

Comparing us to the bulldogs is absolutely ridiculous aswell. Look at their midfield compared to ours, look at their forward line compared to ours. Roos doesn't have the cattle the bulldogs have and in my opinion Roosy has done a great job this year, barring a couple of games where we should have won, injuries, very good year IMO.

As I've said previously, the trajectory has gone up AGAIN this year, will go up AGAIN next year, and I can't wait until this time next year when we have another 3-5 wins and he will prove these media flogs wrong.

[P-man 13,366]

Too all those media peanuts and supporters who think Roos has done a [censored] job this year are kidding themselves. Where's the heat coming for Alan Richardson?? Buckley?? Richardson and St.Kilda have been let off by the media all year but Roosy has copped it left, right and centre.

Comparing us to the bulldogs is absolutely ridiculous aswell. Look at their midfield compared to ours, look at their forward line compared to ours. Roos doesn't have the cattle the bulldogs have and in my opinion Roosy has done a great job this year, barring a couple of games where we should have won, injuries, very good year IMO.

As I've said previously, the trajectory has gone up AGAIN this year, will go up AGAIN next year, and I can't wait until this time next year when we have another 3-5 wins and he will prove these media flogs wrong.

Come off it. Roos had gotten off pretty much scot free until the end of the season with losses to Essendon, Saints and Carlton. CARLTON ffs. The heat started to come in earnest as it should have. So not sure where this "copped it left, right and centre" impression has come from.

Secondly, the limited criticism he has copped at various times has been as a result of him being on excess of $1m a year, which can't be said about the other coaches you've named. Big things are expected from the AFL in righting this ship, and if it weren't for the GWS game, you and others would be singing a different tune. That game salvaged a lot in terms of how the season and Roos' tenure to date can be viewed. Most here considered the season as a failure prior to the weekend. But it's an upward trajectory and keeping a healthy list should mean 10-12 wins next season as a minimum.

Also, the Dogs forward line? Before the season started, few would've taken their forward line over ours.

Edited September 7, 2015 by P-man

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Come off it. Roos had gotten off pretty much scot free until the end of the season with losses to Essendon, Saints and Carlton. CARLTON ffs. The heat started to come in earnest as it should have. So not sure where this "copped it left, right and centre" impression has come from.

Secondly, the limited criticism he has copped at various times has been as a result of him being on excess of $1m a year, which can't be said about the other coaches you've named. Big things are expected from the AFL in righting this ship, and if it weren't for the GWS game, you and others would be singing a different tune. That game salvaged a lot in terms of how the season and Roos' tenure to date can be viewed. Most here considered the season as a failure prior to the weekend. But it's an upward trajectory and keeping a healthy list should mean 10-12 wins next season as a minimum.

Also, the Dogs forward line? Before the season started, few would've taken their forward line over ours.

You've writtem pretty much exactly I was going to write. As I said in an earlier post, it is a deadset fact that 8 of the 9 performances prior to Sunday were shocking. Not OK, not disappointing, but shocking. At the end of the season I would say 2-3rds of our performnces were completely unacceptable. Of course we are in a better spot now than we were under Neeld, because we were one of the worst sides ever at that time. There is cause for optimism but the 'serious questions' that have been asked in this thread are more than warranted by the posters who have posed them.

[jnrmac 20,185]

I have criticised Roos over the effort that our players have put in - particularly over the past 7 weeks.

You simply cannot have the ridiculous 1st quarter efforts that we have had and not sheet that blame home to the coach. He backs his players, fine. But when those players don't perform he rightly should feel heat. There is a consequence of the players playing like that and that is lost respect from supporters, media, sponsors, the AFL etc. The club wears pain of those efforts. There are some here that fell he can't be questioned - on anything. Clearly that is wrong.

We knew the road would be bumpy but the first non-negotiable is effort. Not for one qtr, not for 2 qtrs but for a whole game.

Brayshaw is a good example. He impact has waned over the second half of the season which is to be expected. But his effort has never waned. Puts in for 120 mins a game. That is what supporter want to see. 22 guys putting in like a first year player does. Its not that hard.

To gloss over our poor performances with 'we are better than last year' is just a crap argument that we are sick of hearing.

On Roos:

Has he been good for the club. Absolutely.

Is he paid too much. I CGAF what he is paid.Its irrelevant and secondary to the job he is doing

Is he above criticism. Definitely not.

[rpfc 28,777]

Is 'we are better than last year' an argument or a fact?

It sounds 'facty' to me...

[Guest]

I have criticised Roos over the effort that our players have put in - particularly over the past 7 weeks.

You simply cannot have the ridiculous 1st quarter efforts that we have had and not sheet that blame home to the coach. He backs his players, fine. But when those players don't perform he rightly should feel heat. There is a consequence of the players playing like that and that is lost respect from supporters, media, sponsors, the AFL etc. The club wears pain of those efforts. There are some here that fell he can't be questioned - on anything. Clearly that is wrong.

We knew the road would be bumpy but the first non-negotiable is effort. Not for one qtr, not for 2 qtrs but for a whole game.

Brayshaw is a good example. He impact has waned over the second half of the season which is to be expected. But his effort has never waned. Puts in for 120 mins a game. That is what supporter want to see. 22 guys putting in like a first year player does. Its not that hard.

To gloss over our poor performances with 'we are better than last year' is just a crap argument that we are sick of hearing.

On Roos:

Has he been good for the club. Absolutely.

Is he paid too much. I CGAF what he is paid.Its irrelevant and secondary to the job he is doing

Is he above criticism. Definitely not.

I think though that putting the blame on the effort the players put forth entirely on Roos is a bit unfair. If the players need him to be the sole reason for them to be motivated or not then we will always be stuck between a rock and a hard place. If we also need him in the rooms revving the players up before every match then that is also self defeating as the old school 'fire and brimstone' stuff gets old quickly. Roos, as an individual, can't pull a rabbit out of the hat every single match to insure the players are up and about.

If we look at this holistically, we need a whole club approach to make sure our players are motivated and switched on week after week. It's been mentioned before but Roosy has probably delivered more sprays in 2 years at Melbourne than he did in 10 at Sydney. Part of it was because he had a team that was twice as strong as what we have but also it was because he had blokes in the playing ranks like Brett Kirk, Stuie Maxfield and Jude Bolton reinforcing his message (you could also put Barry Hall and Adam Goodes in that category too). I'm not sure we have that depth of leadership or strength of leadership in the playing ranks yet.

Roos shouldn't be above criticism. I think how that criticism is framed is important.

If one wishes to say that the difference between our absolute best and absolute worst is staggering then I would agree wholeheartedly.

If you think that no improvement has occurred at all (and I'm not saying that you are implying that JnrMac, I'm talking in generalities) and things are no better than they were in 2013 then I repeat, you are a peanut of the highest order.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Colin B. Flaubert

[jnrmac 20,185]

I think though that putting the blame on the effort the players put forth entirely on Roos is a bit unfair. If the players need him to be the sole reason for them to be motivated or not then we will always be stuck between a rock and a hard place. If we also need him in the rooms revving the players up before every match then that is also self defeating as the old school 'fire and brimstone' stuff gets old quickly. Roos, as an individual, can't pull a rabbit out of the hat every single match to insure the players are up and about.

If we look at this holistically, we need a whole club approach to make sure our players are motivated and switched on week after week. It's been mentioned before but Roosy has probably delivered more sprays in 2 years at Melbourne than he did in 10 at Sydney. Part of it was because he had a team that was twice as strong as what we have but also it was because he had blokes in the playing ranks like Brett Kirk, Stuie Maxfield and Jude Bolton reinforcing his message (you could also put Barry Hall and Adam Goodes in that category too). I'm not sure we have that depth of leadership or strength of leadership in the playing ranks yet.

Roos shouldn't be above criticism. I think how that criticism is framed is important.

If one wishes to say that the difference between our absolute best and absolute worst is staggering then I would agree wholeheartedly.

If you think that no improvement has occurred at all (and I'm not saying that you are implying that JnrMac, I'm talking in generalities) and things are no better than they were in 2013 then I repeat, you are a peanut of the highest order.

When we see a team go missing for large parts of the game there are questions over on field leadership.

When we see it happen 2,3,4 weeks running it is a coaching issue

I haven't said he needs to do the fire and brimstone schtick. But whatever schtick he is using it wasn't working.

When you fail in the first half of a footy match by not turning up and putting in effort you would think that is a huge focus for the next week.

If you repeat the crap performance for a second week you probably get a bit angry as coach and increase the pressure somewhat

If the same thing happens for the third week running, whatever message you are peddling isn't working.

If in the 4th week the same thing happens you don't blame the supporters.

It shouldn't take 4 weeks to sort this out. Effort is non-negotiable. If you don't bring it you don't play. They know who isn't putting in. They have the GPS stats, They watch the game 3 or 4 times. They know who is capable and who isn't.

My premise is pretty simple. If a first year player can bring that effort week in week out why can't the others? And us supporters don't have to stomach the crap that is peddled about it being our fault becasue we are negative, No SHOOOOt Sherlock. We have every right to be,. Somethingaint working and when the highly paid coaching staff don't seem to know how to fix it what does that say???

Glossing over it by saying 'we have improved' is a peanut response.

[Sir Why You Little 37,126]

My view on 2015 is that overall we have not improved.

Why because we have just inherited different problems. That being consecutive slow starts which to me is a huge problem, which as jnr says above to do it 4 weeks running is just diabolical.

The club is in better shape but the Footy Dept has massive problems unless we can trade in some class experience.

[Chris 2,892]

You've writtem pretty much exactly I was going to write. As I said in an earlier post, it is a deadset fact that 8 of the 9 performances prior to Sunday were shocking. Not OK, not disappointing, but shocking. At the end of the season I would say 2-3rds of our performnces were completely unacceptable. Of course we are in a better spot now than we were under Neeld, because we were one of the worst sides ever at that time. There is cause for optimism but the 'serious questions' that have been asked in this thread are more than warranted by the posters who have posed them.

So every loss had a performance that was completely unacceptable, it must be almost all of them as we won nearly a third of our games.

Happy for losing to be unacceptable, but surely we had more than a couple of losses where our performance was actually OK?

[Chris 2,892]

My view on 2015 is that overall we have not improved.

Why because we have just inherited different problems. That being consecutive slow starts which to me is a huge problem, which as jnr says above to do it 4 weeks running is just diabolical.

The club is in better shape but the Footy Dept has massive problems unless we can trade in some class experience.

So we win more games, have a higher percentage, but we haven't improved? huh.

Yes we have some problems but you must admit our best is so far ahead of last year and light years ahead of 2013, the only problem is our worst is still woefully bad, that is what we need to fix and it appears effort based and that is on the players. A solution must be found and I am confident it will. Most clubs on the improve go through exactly the same issue.

[loges 6,767]

My view on 2015 is that overall we have not improved.

Why because we have just inherited different problems. That being consecutive slow starts which to me is a huge problem, which as jnr says above to do it 4 weeks running is just diabolical.

The club is in better shape but the Footy Dept has massive problems unless we can trade in some class experience.

WYL you keep on about how we need more good experienced played especially those that can lead, and you know what , you are 100% correct. Leadership problem has been massive and for quite a few years now.

[Gator 17,449]

My view on 2015 is that overall we have not improved.

Why because we have just inherited different problems. That being consecutive slow starts which to me is a huge problem, which as jnr says above to do it 4 weeks running is just diabolical.

The club is in better shape but the Footy Dept has massive problems unless we can trade in some class experience.

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. More wins, better percentage, 2 x 40 goal kickers, and wins against teams we haven't beaten for years.

The real question is have we improved enough ?

[Vanilla Gorilla 204]

The final win against GWS has made the last 5 weeks seem palatable. In reality, the preceding 4 weeks were deplorably bad.

Remember, people were calling for Roos' head not 2 weeks ago.

Have we improved this year? Undoubtedly yes, albeit modestly.

But Roos still has plenty to prove in 2016.

[jnrmac 20,185]

So every loss had a performance that was completely unacceptable, it must be almost all of them as we won nearly a third of our games.

Happy for losing to be unacceptable, but surely we had more than a couple of losses where our performance was actually OK?

Its unacceptable to me when our effort is not for four quarters.

If the effort is there I think we can generally all see a positive side to things. Games like the St Kilda debacle were frustrating because of basic footy smarts that were missing. Seriously that stuff we learn in u11's.

[PaulRB 6,411]

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. More wins, better percentage, 2 x 40 goal kickers, and wins against teams we haven't beaten for years.

The real question is have we improved enough ?

Given the injuries we sustained that resulted in us fielding sub-par players for slabs of the year I'd count 2015 as a big enough step up from 2014.

Injured players

• Petracca,
• Trengove,
• Kent,
• Frost,
• Dawes,
• Etc...

[Sir Why You Little 37,126]

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. More wins, better percentage, 2 x 40 goal kickers, and wins against teams we haven't beaten for years.

The real question is have we improved enough ?

Rounds 19-22 negate a lot of the other indicators

Now i concede that this may have happened because certain players already know their fate, but if not it is a serious problem that tarnishes other achievements

[Sir Why You Little 37,126]

WYL you keep on about how we need more good experienced played especially those that can lead, and you know what , you are 100% correct. Leadership problem has been massive and for quite a few years now.

of course. Leaders set the bar.

Getting 50 to a 100 games into a kid is useless if he learns from a poor environment

We know this to well.

NOW is the time you get our young guns sorted.

[pinkshark 950]

I reckon he has done a good job. We're on the up. ANyway, I reckon banging on about whether or not he is this or that is irrelevant...he has a year to go. we're not gonna sack him (now should we), there is no confusion over who the next coach is. Goodwin has had time to settle. Its all good. It is in fact, all part of the plan when PJ and PR came on board. Its called a master plan knee jerkers.

I am so looking forward to next season. Go Dees.

[Chris 2,892]

Its unacceptable to me when our effort is not for four quarters.

If the effort is there I think we can generally all see a positive side to things. Games like the St Kilda debacle were frustrating because of basic footy smarts that were missing. Seriously that stuff we learn in u11's.

Agreed, that was not the premise of the commetn I was responding to though, it stated 2/3rds of our games were not acceptable, that is pretty much every loss, surely you can give credit that we gave our all in at least a few of our losses.

This points to the mass over reaction both ways on this forum. Have we improved, undeniably, do we still have issues, yes. To ignore either of those is ridiculous.

[old dee 23,872]

Given the injuries we sustained that resulted in us fielding sub-par players for slabs of the year I'd count 2015 as a big enough step up from 2014.

Injured players

• Petracca,
• Trengove,
• Kent,
• Frost,
• Dawes,
• Etc...

What was his injury ?

Come to think of it I don't remember him on the list!

[beelzebub 23,383]

tbh...i'll only really evaluate whether weve improved come the end of the trade/draft. This will tell me whether we've truly learnt how to be a successful and competitive club. So far on the field its all over the place .

Some very strange games with performances ranging from ambivalent to very good....and much in between.

There were hints from Macca in his video that more will be revealed shortly as to the where and how of our journey forwards.

Currently we sit as top of the bottom 6, better than second last I suppose but really at that end of things its only the difference of a death by a 1000 cuts or 1200...isnt it.

The major issues of players not coming to play etc can and will only be answered in the coming season. So I suppose that's when Roos gets to provide the answers. I look forward to them.