A small edit if I may ...

And if anyone believes Vince's "we didn't know how much time was left", get in touch, I have a bridge for sale.

Well it actually makes the most sense. Why else would they setup up as normal?

At least what broke down can be addressed, unlike the Hawthorn game when so many things didn't work there was nothing to gain.

Spot on.

These sort of "what-ifs" have been done to death over the years. You rarely have your best 22 on the field at one time, and the absent players are game changers all of sudden, when in reality, we know they're not. Sure, VDB, Salem and Kent would improve the team on paper, but that's not to say that the result changes.

If Garlett was out, many would say thet he was the difference between a win and a loss. He played and did stuff all, and the players you've mentioned could well have done the same, because none of them are proven A graders.

let's continue to extend your logic, what if we had injuries to our best 22 and thus the Casey side ran out in MFC jumpers.. would this also make no difference?

FCS there is a reason you have the concept of a best 22, you don't just chuck one out and say 'meh our 23rd is just as good' it is illogical

too many people just disregarding our injury list, it is hugely important

Well it actually makes the most sense. Why else would they setup up as normal?

Because it was for the on field leaders to make the call, and because all players make mistakes.

I imagine that with 40 seconds to go, in the heat of the moment, a) no-one (i.e. one of the leaders) thought of it and b) if they did think of it they thought that there was so little time it wasn't necessary. In reality, they needed to be setting up from the moment of Howe's shot at goal. But they were almost certainly focused on a setup to defend the kick-in if there was a point (most likely outcome given the angle and Howe's unreliable kicking ...). Then, instead of instantly switching to get forwards back, they were too busy running round back-slapping and high-fiving.

A lot of it comes down to Nate Jones. With so many inexperienced players around him, it was his call. Look at him after the match - he knew.

Not blaming anyone either, it's not often we're in this situation. In fact, when was the last time?

A good lesson in the school of hard knocks.

Sorry to harp on but we still cannot beat cellar dwellers like ourselves.

I can go with you against the Pies, Sydney etc but St Kilda

I think the gains I see are marginal you obviously see better than that.

To get to this point OD we have gained massively. Only a couple of years ago we could only beat the new teams, and Essendon (for some reasons they seem to be our bunny)

Now we should beat the bottom teams (Brisbane, Carlton, and GC) and depending on the day get over the Saints and Dogs. That there is already an improvement. I think you forget how far back we are coming from!

Yes it sucked but I am pretty amazed at how much grown adults are having a sook about it. It's not like we are going to miss out on finals now. Our first year KPF kicked 5, could have been 7 or 8 - he is the biggest asset in the comp and he is ours. Toumpas, Watts and Grimes were all good. We already know Brayshaw, Kent and Salem will be good. Next year we get Petracca, Trengove and another high draft pick or import from another club. We have a huge injury list and a very hard draw so far. I still reckon we will win 5 more. Things are so much better than 2 years ago. Chill out everyone.

I like your attitude and agree with it on the whole. Petracca's tweet yesterday evening was also heartwarming.

The most disappointing thing for me was missing a golden chance to break two hoodoos (particularly the Etihad one). I think winning there after 8 years and 20 straight losses would have been a pretty strong sign that the ghosts of the past are finally behind us. Alas not.

...

St Kilda are the best side for pressure on opposition (Ranked 1st in the league)and we matched them in pressure acts

...

This is surprising, but it explains a lot. We always struggle to move the ball forward against a team that puts a lot of pressure on us.

We'd better improve by the time we play them again in 6 weeks.

This is surprising, but it explains a lot. We always struggle to move the ball forward against a team that puts a lot of pressure on us.

We'd better improve by the time we play them again in 6 weeks.

More open spaces on the G, plus hopefully a few injured players back should account for the two points. Here's hoping anyway.

let's continue to extend your logic, what if we had injuries to our best 22 and thus the Casey side ran out in MFC jumpers.. would this also make no difference?

FCS there is a reason you have the concept of a best 22, you don't just chuck one out and say 'meh our 23rd is just as good' it is illogical

too many people just disregarding our injury list, it is hugely important

Rewind to round 1 last year when we were short priced favourites against the Saints because they were missing all their prime movers in Montagna, Hayes and Steven, on top of the departure of Dal Santo. Guess what, we lost. I look forward to excuse no. 932.

Rewind to round 1 last year when we were short priced favourites against the Saints because they were missing all their prime movers in Montagna, Hayes and Steven, on top of the departure of Dal Santo. Guess what, we lost. I look forward to excuse no. 932.

Then why don't 22 of us run out there and play?

Rewind to round 1 last year when we were short priced favourites against the Saints because they were missing all their prime movers in Montagna, Hayes and Steven, on top of the departure of Dal Santo. Guess what, we lost. I look forward to excuse no. 932.

well presumably we would have lost by even more if they were full strength

it's a very simple and obvious concept mate, I'm surprised you have the aggots to even argue it

well presumably we would have lost by even more if they were full strength

it's a very simple and obvious concept mate, I'm surprised you have the aggots to even argue it

This is the Saints team. Riewoldt plus a bunch of no-namers and 1st gamers. Your myopic view of our team is grating.

ST KILDA

B: S.Dempster L.Delaney J.Gwilt

HB: N.Wright D.Roberton J.Webster

C: J.Newnes L.Dunstan F.Ray

HF: C.Jones N.Riewoldt J.Saunders

F: R.Stanley B.Maister E.Templeton

FOLL: T.Hickey D.Armitage S.Savage

I/C: J.Geary J.Billings S.Gilbert T.Curren

EMG: S.Ross T.Dennis-Lane T.Lee

No four quarter effort = no win for the Demons. It is a simple equation that the players need to memorise and enact.

This is surprising, but it explains a lot. We always struggle to move the ball forward against a team that puts a lot of pressure on us.

We'd better improve by the time we play them again in 6 weeks.

This is the first thing that has made me feel better. We have the chance to erase this in a month and a half.

They better bloody do it, and win a few on the way.

On reflection, I was quite satisfied with our overal performance. We withstood their pressure well. Inexperience and lack of smarts in fighting out the full game hurt us real bad at the finish. Players could have been expecting the game to go much longer. The quarter was quite short due to lack of goals. We desperately need a strong onfield leader who can focus the players in the heat of the moment. No coach can provide dynamic leadership at urgent moments from the sidelines. I believe that will make a huge difference in resolving many of our strange lapses which seem to occur every game. This game was an improvement on last week and I just hope we can add to it next week.

No four quarter effort = no win for the Demons. It is a simple equation that the players need to memorise and enact.

Very true. It's frustrating as, when we put that effort in, we look sensational. We just need to do it more often!

will have to change the magazine "heartbeat" name to "heartbreak"

Your ears must be painted on.

As for Watts ? Firstly, let me say that I'm flattered by how regularly you seek my counsel and secondly, yes, Watts' game, for him, was as good as one could hope for these days.

Ben? Benny Hur? Is that you, son?

Where you been?

How was Wattsy's game? Pearler, yeah?

we got absolutely pumped by the weakest side in the comp, Hogan was so hot if he was playing for Hawks he would have kicked 18-1, even with injuries ( you will always have injuries) our list is miles better than Saints, what the fuch is Roos doing? he is 1 win better than Neeld in equal time, Back to Back 100pt losses coming up.

Thats it for me! See you all in 2017. Go DEES GO GOODWIN.

we got absolutely pumped by the weakest side in the comp, Hogan was so hot if he was playing for Hawks he would have kicked 18-1, even with injuries ( you will always have injuries) our list is miles better than Saints, what the fuch is Roos doing? he is 1 win better than Neeld in equal time, Back to Back 100pt losses coming up.

Thats it for me! See you all in 2017. Go DEES GO GOODWIN.

Difference is that Neeld took an OK team and destroyed it. Roos is rebuilding it, and if you can't see that it is working then maybe don't come back in 2017 and maybe try a different sport, as you clearly have no idea what AFL is about.

we got absolutely pumped

we lost by 2 points muppet

we lost by 2 points muppet

if you cannot beat the saints you are very ordinary, we may not have been pumped but we sure as hell signalled what we are.

cellar dwellers

if you cannot beat the saints you are very ordinary, we may not have been pumped but we sure as hell signalled what we are.

cellar dwellers

This wasn't apparent already? I'll say we're cellar dwellers with aspirations, but we don't really know how to crawl out just yet.

Difference is that Neeld took an OK team and destroyed it. Roos is rebuilding it, and if you can't see that it is working then maybe don't come back in 2017 and maybe try a different sport, as you clearly have no idea what AFL is about.

Roos has picked up some nice recruits. thats where the rebuild ends.

if you cannot beat the saints you are very ordinary, we may not have been pumped but we sure as hell signalled what we are.

cellar dwellers

You didn't know that before the saints game? Realistically winning that may mean the difference between 14 or 15 at the end of the year. Either way I would hardly say we are out of the cellar. We are closer to the door though.