On 13/05/2015 at 07:59, Dale said:

Does anyone really believe Zaharakis is scared of needles?

I am so why shouldn't he be.

(I refuse to have a flu shot as I believe their value is limited - note - real reason - terrified of needles)

  On 13/05/2015 at 22:20, Sir Paul Roos said:

Is it possible ASADA didn't use all the evidence they had because they got an inclination they wouldn't get a fair trial and saved a trump card for wada?

WADA can introduce new evidence only if it was not known/available at the lower jurisdiction. So, no if ASADA had it and didn't use it WADA cannot.

  On 13/05/2015 at 14:33, Lamashtu said:

Surprisingly anti-Essendon article from a Fox affiliate!

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/robert-craddock-says-the-truth-of-the-essendon-doping-scandal-is-yet-to-be-uncovered/story-e6frf33l-1227352669865

Good read though, and gets to the crux of the issue. Just because we're sick of this scandal, doesn't mean it should just "go away" like the AFL/Essendon want it to. It needs a conclusion and there needs to be justice. Most of all, we need answers.

CAS sentence the players, could be anything from 2 year bans to the whole team being banned.

Now you are just saying that to get my hopes up again.

If the team does gets a ban, which after that clubs behaviour in this saga would be totally justified, would the supporters still blindly follow their leadership or ask for a complete change?

Slogans such as "In Hird we trust" just goes to show me how much of a cult like culture the EFC actually has. Surely the members should have already challenged their club's leadership about what was the actual substances used in the 2012 supplement program. If this simple question was not answered, which is the case, then they should have demanded a complete changes at all level of the clubs leadership.

It is my view that if the members of the EFC had already stood up as a group and removed any of the clubs leadership which includes coaches, board members etc. who held positions of authority during the 2011 and 2012 supplement program , then the EFC should be allowed to continue in the AFL. By not taking this type of action, it is my view, the EFC members as a group must actually support the supplement program and any substances that had been used. Therefore their club should receive the full penalty associated with an illegal substance program if this can be proven by WADA to CAS satisfaction.

How anger would the EFC members be, if the club receives a ban which stops their club from participating in the AFL competition as in my view the AFL was only ever interested in imposing a token punishment to ensure there was very little impact on the league and its lucrative TV rights contract.

  On 13/05/2015 at 09:18, CityDee said:

Asada argued that the doses given/frequency as per available records/interview info are in-line with injecting thymosin beta 4.

They ( hird and co ) were also caught in text messages calling peptides amino acids -' lets just call them amino acids' was the suggestion from Dank

Let's be clear. Peptides are formed by connecting amino acids together so there is nothing incorrect in calling peptides 'amino acids'. That's just a statement of fact.

  On 13/05/2015 at 13:57, binman said:

As I have said before on DL. Neil young is the perfect person to be involved. He's seen the needle and the damage done

Some of your best work, Binman. (For those who don't appreciate Binman's work, try this.)

  On 13/05/2015 at 22:57, Lucifer said:

This is a great article from journalist Sandra Olle (someone I haven't come across before at 'Foxtel'); http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/05/14/wadadya-think-going-happen-time-frame-essendon-saga-properly/

Extract:

- And with the introduction of WADA to the fray, the framing of the issue has once again changed. Its now a David and Goliath battle as a team from Australia takes on a body that was founded in Lausanne, Switzerland, but now officially presides in Montreal, Canada.

Australia versus the world. No, Essendon versus the world. No, its got to be Hird versus the world.

I love the David and Goliath metaphor...hope Hird has his slingshot ready but alas medieval toys won't cut it!

Yes, Hird versus the world. Has a nice ring to it! All his media mates, stand-over men, lies and back room manipulations/intimidations can't help him now.

Despite my dark glee at Hird squirming, its time to get back to the really important and serious issue in this: I believe the players were naive, stupid and maybe a little complicit. But there is no way on God's earth that they deserve or should endure what is about to unfold. Sadly, they have no choice but to accept they have been mere pawns in a high-stakes power game. They will be the only real losers. Hard to imagine those young men are not feeling shattered. I wish them well in coping with what is about to unfold.

Lu haven't they had a choice? To cooperate fully with ASADA and tell them all they know (Cronulla?) or not cooperate at all and let this drag out for years...

Dont you just love the way the Fanboy press mischievously dance with words.

"WADA blocks key Bomber advisor"...... Now we know Grace is unable to represent Essendon now being a registered Arbitrator must recuse HIMSELF because thats the protocol. It has nothing to do with any effort or ploy by WADA.

Personally I feel after this Grace should be DEREGISTERED as an arbitrator as he obviously has his allegiances compromised...Youre either a judge or an player ( lawyer/solicitor/qc ) in this arena...not both

  On 13/05/2015 at 21:14, Whispering_Jack said:

This goes to the heart of the reason for the appeal and it's a pity Chip used the example of Hexarelin rather than TB4 but, in any event, it should be clear that there is a strongly arguable case that the AFL Tribunal demanded the far stricter standard of proof being beyond reasonable doubt rather than that of comfortable satisfaction as required for an anti-doping offence even though it said it applied the latter standard. This is why Smith's comments on WADA's appeal are ludicrous.

The tribunal found that Dank injected what he thought was TB4. That he got it from Alavi, who believed he was compounding TB4. Who in turn got it from Charters, who believed he was buying TB4, from a Chinese pharmaceutical company who stated that the only thymosin they provided was TB4.

But the tribunal thought, what if it actually wasn't TB4?

The only way to know would be if ASADA managed to go back in time, get hold of that actual shipment and have it lab tested.

That is not comfortable satisfaction. That is shooting for 100% certainty. That is beyond reasonable doubt.

Life must be a daily struggle for those tribunal members.

"Dear, did you put sugar in my coffee?"

"Yes, dear, didn't you see me put it in?"

"Yes."

"And you saw me get it out of the sugar bowl."

"Yes, I did."

"And can't you taste it?"

"Yes, I can. But how can we be sure???"

"I'm not paying for this petrol."

"But sir, you've just pumped in 50 litres of 91 octane."

"It might be LPG."

"But you pumped it from the bowser labelled 91 octane."

"Yes, I did."

"Which was filled last night by a tanker filled with only 91 octane."

"I accept that."

"Here is the invoice from Shell for one tanker of 91 octane."

"I accept that, too."

"What's more we don't even sell LPG here."

"I noticed that."

"And if it was LPG, your car wouldn't start."

"I know all that. But how can we be sure???"

My point was more that I believe that Zaharakis had an inkling all was not well, and used it as a way out. He is a respected and established player of the club who said no to the program. If he could, I'm sure there are plenty other who would. This is a point that's not discussed too much because it doesn't help 'sympathy for the players' angle. It is because of this I'm not fully convinced the players are as innocent as they maintain.

  On 13/05/2015 at 21:14, Whispering_Jack said:

WADA appeal against Essendon a 'witch hunt', claims lawyer

Graham Smith, a Melbourne lawyer believes that by exercising its lawful right to appeal the AFL Tribunal's decision in the case of the Essendon 34, WADA is engaging in a 'witch hunt'.

My response to that is that, just as there is "good" thymosin and "bad" thymosin, there are "good" witches and "bad" witches and if WADA is hunting for the "bad" guys in a quest to uncover the truth, then it's fulfilling its charter for the benefit of world sport and I'm all in favour.

This goes to the heart of the reason for the appeal and it's a pity Chip used the example of Hexarelin rather than TB4 but, in any event, it should be clear that there is a strongly arguable case that the AFL Tribunal demanded the far stricter standard of proof being beyond reasonable doubt rather than that of comfortable satisfaction as required for an anti-doping offence even though it said it applied the latter standard. This is why Smith's comments on WADA's appeal are ludicrous.

Is witch hunt code for illegal substance use?

After reading about the initial rumblings suggesting the AFL reviewing their relationship with WADA I will not be surprised if they will pull the pin on the WADA code. They firstly have to make it politically palatable. Expect a relentless spin campaign by the media attack dogs.

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:39, Cards13 said:

Lu haven't they had a choice? To cooperate fully with ASADA and tell them all they know (Cronulla?) or not cooperate at all and let this drag out for years...

That is true cards. Maybe I should add 'poorly advised' and 'misguided decisions' to the players errors. Nonetheless, I feel for their predicament.

I can see no way any major sport..or minor for that matter will be able to operate and be accredited , funded , assisted etc in this country if it doesnt abide by the rules...i.e the WADA code. A country with such a massive sporting monicker will not be allowed to have one of it s prime codes operate OUTSIDE of the fence.

Methinks the players know the AFL manipulated the last result in their favour, but now that the result is in the hands of WADA (who will be desperate to make an example of Essendon for the disgusting arrogance they've shown throughout), they realise justice will actually be served.

It's no coincidence all the leaks immediately after the last hearing had players [censored] themselves, yet mysteriously a week before the result was announced, all the commentators began gleefully boasting their "opinion" that players would get off due to lack of evidence. Most notably Tim Watson. Funny that.

Independent tribunal my ass.

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:48, america de cali said:

After reading about the initial rumblings suggesting the AFL reviewing their relationship with WADA I will not be surprised if they will pull the pin on the WADA code. They firstly have to make it politically palatable. Expect a relentless spin campaign by the media attack dogs.

I'm waiting for Gil to pull some stunt between now and the end of the year whereby the AFL decides it doesn't have to abide by the CAS penalties, and Jobby doesn't have to hand back his Brownlow.

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:46, Ted Fidge said:

The tribunal found that Dank injected what he thought was TB4. That he got it from Alavi, who believed he was compounding TB4. Who in turn got it from Charters, who believed he was buying TB4, from a Chinese pharmaceutical company who stated that the only thymosin they provided was TB4.

But the tribunal thought, what if it actually wasn't TB4?

The only way to know would be if ASADA managed to go back in time, get hold of that actual shipment and have it lab tested.

That is not comfortable satisfaction. That is shooting for 100% certainty. That is beyond reasonable doubt.

Life must be a daily struggle for those tribunal members.

"Dear, did you put sugar in my coffee?"

"Yes, dear, didn't you see me put it in?"

"Yes."

"And you saw me get it out of the sugar bowl."

"Yes, I did."

"And can't you taste it?"

"Yes, I can. But how can we be sure???"

"I'm not paying for this petrol."

"But sir, you've just pumped in 50 litres of 91 octane."

"It might be LPG."

"But you pumped it from the bowser labelled 91 octane."

"Yes, I did."

"Which was filled last night by a tanker filled with only 91 octane."

"I accept that."

"Here is the invoice from Shell for one tanker of 91 octane."

"I accept that, too."

"What's more we don't even sell LPG here."

"I noticed that."

"And if it was LPG, your car wouldn't start."

"I know all that. But how can we be sure???"

Brilliant!

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:51, beelzebub said:

I can see no way any major sport..or minor for that matter will be able to operate and be accredited , funded , assisted etc in this country if it doesnt abide by the rules...i.e the WADA code. A country with such a massive sporting monicker will not be allowed to have one of it s prime codes operate OUTSIDE of the fence.

Oh, Gil "the Dealmaker" will find some way. "We're following the US NFL model where the biggest sport in the country follows its own seperate, rigorous code, really punitive, and doesn't drag down every other sport in the land, who by the way can go hang, sorry, I mean, will finally have a level playing field without the AFL being an albatross around their necks. We're doing this for the good of the nation."

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:51, Lamashtu said:

It's no coincidence all the leaks immediately after the last hearing had players [censored] themselves, yet mysteriously a week before the result was announced, all the commentators began gleefully boasting their "opinion" that players would get off due to lack of evidence. Most notably Tim Watson. Funny that.

Gil "integrity of the game" McLachlan met with Jobby and his crew to discuss the tribunal case WHILE THE TRIBUNAL WAS SITTING.

I expect he was just explaining how carry over points work if you've been charged with rough conduct.

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:46, Ted Fidge said:

The tribunal found that Dank injected what he thought was TB4. That he got it from Alavi, who believed he was compounding TB4. Who in turn got it from Charters, who believed he was buying TB4, from a Chinese pharmaceutical company who stated that the only thymosin they provided was TB4.

But the tribunal thought, what if it actually wasn't TB4?

The only way to know would be if ASADA managed to go back in time, get hold of that actual shipment and have it lab tested.

That is not comfortable satisfaction. That is shooting for 100% certainty. That is beyond reasonable doubt.

Life must be a daily struggle for those tribunal members.

"Dear, did you put sugar in my coffee?"

"Yes, dear, didn't you see me put it in?"

"Yes."

"And you saw me get it out of the sugar bowl."

"Yes, I did."

"And can't you taste it?"

"Yes, I can. But how can we be sure???"

"I'm not paying for this petrol."

"But sir, you've just pumped in 50 litres of 91 octane."

"It might be LPG."

"But you pumped it from the bowser labelled 91 octane."

"Yes, I did."

"Which was filled last night by a tanker filled with only 91 octane."

"I accept that."

"Here is the invoice from Shell for one tanker of 91 octane."

"I accept that, too."

"What's more we don't even sell LPG here."

"I noticed that."

"And if it was LPG, your car wouldn't start."

"I know all that. But how can we be sure???"

Great post, except the first sentence is wrong. The tribunal didn't even consider what Dank did or didn't do at the club because they didn't know what the substance was so it didn't matter. I think if the tribunal joined a dot or two they would have ended up where you say, unfortunately they didn't want to.

  On 14/05/2015 at 00:00, Ted Fidge said:

Oh, Gil "the Dealmaker" will find some way. "We're following the US NFL model where the biggest sport in the country follows its own seperate, rigorous code, really punitive, and doesn't drag down every other sport in the land, who by the way can go hang, sorry, I mean, will finally have a level playing field without the AFL being an albatross around their necks. We're doing this for the good of the nation."

NFL has never operated under WADA code...it can stay aloof. The AFL would need a way to extricate itself. Can not see how it can without severing ties with all that support it..

  On 14/05/2015 at 00:14, beelzebub said:

NFL has never operated under WADA code...it can stay aloof. The AFL would need a way to extricate itself. Can not see how it can without severing ties with all that support it..

The AFL have enough political and media influence to give it a good crack. The extent of meddling so far is proof of that.

  On 14/05/2015 at 00:21, america de cali said:

The AFL have enough political and media influence to give it a good crack. The extent of meddling so far is proof of that.

I have no doubt ...they might try...or 'test the waters". I can also see a huge lobby countering them. A simple question will be posed : "Why, what do you want to hide ?"

  On 13/05/2015 at 23:11, Lucifer said:

WADA can introduce new evidence only if it was not known/available at the lower jurisdiction. So, no if ASADA had it and didn't use it WADA cannot.

Significant in my view. Despite what we know and what we think we know and the circumstantial evidence, cannot see WADA getting up without new evidence coming in the form of uncovered documentation or someone breaking ranks with the EFC.

  On 13/05/2015 at 22:26, monoccular said:

....but wasn't smart enough to advise Jimmy to make a back up of everything that was handed over? I know she may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but seriously could anyone be that stupid?

Probably. When you get an overload of narcissism and a compulsive need to blame everyone but yourself, who knows what can happen?

FWIW they could have handed over the only copy of Tania's notes as well I am not sure it is fair to say she is not the sharpest tool in the shed --- I think she is not the sharpest tool in the entire Bunnings warehouse ...

  On 14/05/2015 at 00:23, beelzebub said:

I have no doubt ...they might try...or 'test the waters". I can also see a huge lobby countering them. A simple question will be posed : "Why, what do you want to hide ?"

Eventually politicians will have a say. A trustworthy lot they are. Can you see in your crystal ball the AFL and Essendon accepting an adverse decision and consequential penalty? The only way they will be tripped up is with positive blood samples.

  On 13/05/2015 at 21:14, Whispering_Jack said:

WADA appeal against Essendon a 'witch hunt', claims lawyer

Graham Smith, a Melbourne lawyer believes that by exercising its lawful right to appeal the AFL Tribunal's decision in the case of the Essendon 34, WADA is engaging in a 'witch hunt'.

My response to that is that, just as there is "good" thymosin and "bad" thymosin, there are "good" witches and "bad" witches and if WADA is hunting for the "bad" guys in a quest to uncover the truth, then it's fulfilling its charter for the benefit of world sport and I'm all in favour.

This goes to the heart of the reason for the appeal and it's a pity Chip used the example of Hexarelin rather than TB4 but, in any event, it should be clear that there is a strongly arguable case that the AFL Tribunal demanded the far stricter standard of proof being beyond reasonable doubt rather than that of comfortable satisfaction as required for an anti-doping offence even though it said it applied the latter standard. This is why Smith's comments on WADA's appeal are ludicrous.

"Is the AFL thinking about walking away from the WADA code? If not, it should be because the decision of WADA to appeal suggests a complete disregard of the interests of the AFL competition and the players," Smith said.

Is this guy for real? It's in the interests of the game to have this question left hanging? Really? I would have thought that until this is resolved once and for all the game has a very dark cloud hanging over it. The interests of the AFL and ALL of the players will be best served by getting to the bottom of what took place.