When I watch this team play against quality opposition like Sunday under pressure it confirms to me 4 things

1) We do not have enough quality players in the mid field

2) We are no where near strong enough in body or mind

3) we lack real on field leadership and don't have anybody who is a game breaker

4) Roos' is not the messiah- A first year coach at the Bulll dogs with a younger side has just zoomed past us

Back to the drawing board Dees

Amazingly two Demons got votes from the coaches

Garlett and T Mac 1 each

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-05-04/aflca-votes-round-five

Melbourne v Fremantle
9 Fyfe (Frem)
9 Mundy (Frem)
5 Mayne (Frem)
3 Neale (Frem)
2 D. Pearce (Frem)
1 Garlett (Melb)
1 McDonald (Melb)

Edited May 4, 201510 yr by hogans_heroes

When I watch this team play against quality opposition like Sunday under pressure it confirms to me 4 things

1) We do not have enough quality players in the mid field

2) We are no where near strong enough in body or mind

3) we lack real on field leadership and don't have anybody who is a game breaker

4) Roos' is not the messiah- A first year coach at the Bulll dogs with a younger side has just zoomed past us

Back to the drawing board Dees

A lot to agree with there. Beveridge is doing remarkably well.

Not so much back to the drawing board I feel as certainly a few trips back to the well.

What we have in place in terms of design is I think, sound. It's the lack of suitable players that negates it working ATM. Some to come through will help but we still need greater depth and a couple of really talented able types to get us firing.

Dare I say (already) we'll go shopping come EOS...clear out the stale and refurbish with better.

We were 5 goals down at 3/4 time, with Freo's lead inflated by 2 or 3 charity goals. We attacked for the first 10 minutes of the last and got just 3 behinds. Freo attacked down the middle after a turnover and Suban kicked the goal. That's the game right there.

Freo have a brilliant game plan, because it's counter-intuitive. It relies on their opposition not planning for it, getting confused, and continuing to play the same way the whole game. We could not have played more into their hands. I can't believe we set up at stoppages exactly the same way the whole game ... again, playing right into their hands. We just kept playing exactly the way they wanted us to play.

If we're seriously going to compete with the top teams, we absolutely must have a specific plan about how to counter them. If we go in with just "do the best you can", we are going to get smashed every time. If a smart coach works out how to beat their game plan, then it will be Freo's turn to get absolutely smashed.

Thats why I said previously that Roos was comprehensively beaten on the day

The dees are coming from a lot further back than the dogs mate. To suggest LB is a better option than PR is extremely short-sighted.

Think before you post.

Edited May 4, 201510 yr by 3Dee

The dees are coming from a lot further back than the dogs mate. To suggest LB is a better option than PR is extremely short-sighted.

Think before you post.

where does anyone suggest Beveridge a better option .

It was commented upon that he's doing rather well, to the extent they're amazingly ahead of us in a very short amount of time.

Roos2Goodwin I think is still a good way to go. I think Goodwin might prove a better game day tactician as well. Roos seems to get caught flat footed in games, but as head coach while we develop and build he's ably suited.

When I watch this team play against quality opposition like Sunday under pressure it confirms to me 4 things

1) We do not have enough quality players in the mid field

2) We are no where near strong enough in body or mind

3) we lack real on field leadership and don't have anybody who is a game breaker

4) Roos' is not the messiah- A first year coach at the Bulll dogs with a younger side has just zoomed past us

Back to the drawing board Dees

Thats why I said previously that Roos was comprehensively beaten on the day

As I texted a mate in the first Q, They've got more class...it wasn't just in the midfield but all over the ground. There is not much a coach can do when you are outgunned. Shuffling deck chairs.

I thought we held up pretty well early but the scoreboard did flatter us.

Comparisons with the Doggies could be put in this way. Them 3 years under McCartney, us 6 months/18 months Roos...they have been well set up and it is still only early. A bit too early to make predictions of how they will finish off.

As I texted a mate in the first Q, They've got more class...it wasn't just in the midfield but all over the ground. There is not much a coach can do when you are outgunned. Shuffling deck chairs.

I thought we held up pretty well early but the scoreboard did flatter us.

Comparisons with the Doggies could be put in this way. Them 3 years under McCartney, us 6 months/18 months Roos...they have been well set up and it is still only early. A bit too early to make predictions of how they will finish off.

But rjay

As Carey said on 360 last night when speaking about Bris and Richmond and hinted about the dees. Compared to Bulldogs all 3 teams have had enough time to markedly improve and they havent.Now I am not saying its coaching culture or cattle it is just a fact.

But rjay

As Carey said on 360 last night when speaking about Bris and Richmond and hinted about the dees. Compared to Bulldogs all 3 teams have had enough time to markedly improve and they havent.Now I am not saying its coaching culture or cattle it is just a fact.

We definitely have had plenty of time but the damage done under the previous admin continues to take time to get right. Remember the Doggies were playing finals in 2010 whilst we were in whiteboard mode...

We are improving but don't underestimate the damage that has been done to the fabric of our club.

Yes I think the damage done to the club is close to irrepairable. Lets say for a minute Fremantle or Hawthorn or Port Adelaide or Syney had half their players banned effective immediately. I would still back any of them and lots of others to be ahead of Melbourne over a three to four year period. They are clubs with culture, success, facilities and strong member support. We have just fallen through the cracks.

So as i stated, that's 3 or 4 of our regular preferred 22 that are out C&B. At this stage i would say it's a little too early to put Frost up there as a top 22 shoe in until we've seen a decent slab of his performances over the remainder of this season. Not saying he hasn't been servicable either, just saying it's early days. But yes i would have him in above others at Casey at this point, Pedo the exception only because of experience and ability to impact the contest over 4 quarters (better tank).

So maybe we are talking 5 regulars right now. But whether it's 4 or 5 it's the same principle in that once we lose 3 to 4ish we quickly drop into another VERY ordinary pool at Casey which i feel impacts our performances. So we are looking at at least 2 more goes at the draft i feel in order to replace the chaff at the bottom of the list with some really decent, hard nosed but skilled (by FOOT and hand) footballers who have some toe and know how to play the game. And i say 2 goes as i feel we will need to replace our present bottom 5 to 6 that might be considered regulars at the moment and then add another 5 to 6 for depth at Casey to cover ourselves for "outs" every week. And that's just to become a competitive unit on a regular weekly basis aiming somewhere from 14th to 9th. Sorry 10th, how could i forget the Toiges have a moritorium on 9th.

As for Finals appearances i hate to think how far away that's going to be. Maybe 2017 if we get everything right at the recruiting table.

As for Trengove i would say he is highly unlikely to impact on this list going forward for various reasons. Just my opinion. And Petracca would no doubt add a little X factor into a fairly ordinary list but at the same time he would still be an unknown quantity being a rookie in his 1st season. I guess we will never know on that until next season which is a real tragedy for this young bloke.

Has not played a game at this level. History has plenty of high draft picks not living up to expectations. I for one would like to see him lay a few games before hanging the "great hope" tag on him.

Was a tad "too tired" to post last night.

We received a jolly good flogging - love that word. A little perspective is needed though.I have to say Freo looked very bloody good and I am prepared to suggest they will [censored] other teams before year's end and will be deep into serious finals action.

Some observations.

1.They clearly had more players on the ground than us.

2.We showed excellent manners in allowing our guests to always use the ball before us.

Players.

Jamar battled manfully all day and did as well as could be expected against a "Monster" who was simply too bloody big. The hit outs to advantage killed our mids and us.

Pedo did a bit and it will be an interesting selection if Dawes is fit as JW was very poor and a couple of attempts at taking "one handers" will not help his cause at selection.

Garlett did his job well (As did Eddie in Adelaide) so one can only hope that Carlton fans are crying and gnashing there teeth. (Collingwood supporters cannot gnash)

TMac was a standout and looks a big chance to stop the captain's run of Blueys.

The "Hulk" had to chase kicks (due to number 2 above) but McPharlin did him on the day - an excellent learning experience I suspect.

Nothing else to add as I was sitting with a couple of drunken buffoons and spent a large part of the day distracted by their vulgar behaviour. More of that on another thread.

This point seems to have been missed when posters are denigrating the mids. My biggest disappointment from the game was there was no attempt at 3rd man up. Just watched the Dogs v Sydney. Lin Jong got more hit outs than Cordy by being 3rd man up. Gave the Dogs a chance and broke the Swans set plays.

I sometimes wonder if we beating a dead horse with all this "damage' rubbish

Here is the 2013 list:

• 2 Nathan Jones
• 4 Jack Watts
• 5 Jimmy Toumpas
• 6 Chris Dawes
• 7 Jack Viney
• 8 James Frawley
• 9 Jack Trengove (c)
• 10 Shannon Byrnes
• 11 Mitch Clark
• 12 Colin Sylvia
• 13 Jordie McKenzie
• 14 Lynden Dunn
• 15 David Rodan
• 17 Sam Blease
• 19 James Strauss
• 20 Colin Garland
• 21 Cameron Pedersen
• 23 Josh Tynan
• 25 Tom McDonald
• 26 Daniel Nicholson

• 27 Tom Gillies
• 28 Joel Macdonald
• 30 James Sellar
• 31 Jack Grimes (c)
• 32 Michael Evans
• 33 Dominic Barry
• 34 Dean Kent
• 35 Luke Tapscott
• 36 Aaron Davey
• 37 Max Gawn
• 38 Jeremy Howe
• 39 Neville Jetta
• 40 Mark Jamar
• 41 Troy Davis
• 42 Jake Spencer
• 43 Rory Taggert
• 44 Rohan Bail
• 45 Matt Jones
• 46 Dean Terlich
• 48 Jack Fitzpatrick

• 22 James Magner
• 47 Tom Couch
• 49 Nathan Stark

those in Bold, still on list, those in Italics I'd suggest are starting best 22 currently. Theres ONLY 10

so somewhere in the nature of 12 or so are new since our failed-experiment aka as the " Dark Daze "

Im not buying this 'damaged' rubbish anymore. We have some players who simply dont play up to the level required. Yet , a lot of others can and do lift and step up.

Stop playing this 'victim' card. We are what we are NOW, because it's ....NOW and we have who we have

Edited May 5, 201510 yr by beelzebub

Has not played a game at this level. History has plenty of high draft picks not living up to expectations. I for one would like to see him lay a few games before hanging the "great hope" tag on him.

There's no doubting that Petracca has a skillset and a competitive instinct that many on our list are lacking. Whether he became an A, B, or C grader in his 1st season is beside the point. He'd still offer something that our fringe players can't. I would have been happy if he made the same contribution as Salem last year. He'd definitely offer more as a sub than McKenzie.

I sometimes wonder if we beating a dead horse with all this "damage' rubbish

Here is the 2013 list:

• 2 Nathan Jones
• 4 Jack Watts
• 5 Jimmy Toumpas
• 6 Chris Dawes
• 7 Jack Viney
• 8 James Frawley
• 9 Jack Trengove (c)
• 10 Shannon Byrnes
• 11 Mitch Clark
• 12 Colin Sylvia
• 13 Jordie McKenzie
• 14 Lynden Dunn
• 15 David Rodan
• 17 Sam Blease
• 19 James Strauss
• 20 Colin Garland
• 21 Cameron Pedersen
• 23 Josh Tynan
• 25 Tom McDonald
• 26 Daniel Nicholson

• 27 Tom Gillies
• 28 Joel Macdonald
• 30 James Sellar
• 31 Jack Grimes (c)
• 32 Michael Evans
• 33 Dominic Barry
• 34 Dean Kent
• 35 Luke Tapscott
• 36 Aaron Davey
• 37 Max Gawn
• 38 Jeremy Howe
• 39 Neville Jetta
• 40 Mark Jamar
• 41 Troy Davis
• 42 Jake Spencer
• 43 Rory Taggert
• 44 Rohan Bail
• 45 Matt Jones
• 46 Dean Terlich
• 48 Jack Fitzpatrick

• 22 James Magner
• 47 Tom Couch
• 49 Nathan Stark

those in Bold, still on list, those in Italics I'd suggest are starting best 22 currently. Theres ONLY 9

so somewhere in the nature of 13 or so are new since our failed-experiment aka as the " Dark Daze "

Im not buying this 'damaged' rubbish anymore. We have some players who simply dont play up to the level required. Yet , a lot of others can and do lift and step up.

Stop playing this 'victim' card. We are what we are NOW, because it's ....NOW and we have who we have

'bb', it's not about the damage now, it's the time it takes to rebuild a list and the club because of the damage.

The Doggies rebuilt their's on the back of a Prelim finals only a few years back. There are still senior players on their list from that time.

We cannot compare our progress to the Doggies. We've had to bring in players like Cross from other clubs to help us turn it around. PJ and Roos are working on a long term plan that starts with stability.

I know we would all like results to show much faster but we are coming from further back than any other club. We will have another major list cull at the end of this season, with trade and draft we will be well set to make some serious moves in 2016 I think.

It's not the victim card, it's the reality check...we still have a way to go but we are ever so slowly making progress.

All this talk of being damaged and irreparable are pathetic.

We played the top of the ladder team, we had a bad fourth quarter and were average for the rest of the game.

Yes we are still far behind but are heading in the right direction. Stop the comparison's with the Dogs.

It's funny how all the critics and keyboard warriors are quiet after a win.

#stfu.

Edited May 5, 201510 yr by Ethan Tremblay

'bb', it's not about the damage now, it's the time it takes to rebuild a list and the club because of the damage.

The Doggies rebuilt their's on the back of a Prelim finals only a few years back. There are still senior players on their list from that time.

We cannot compare our progress to the Doggies. We've had to bring in players like Cross from other clubs to help us turn it around. PJ and Roos are working on a long term plan that starts with stability.

I know we would all like results to show much faster but we are coming from further back than any other club. We will have another major list cull at the end of this season, with trade and draft we will be well set to make some serious moves in 2016 I think.

It's not the victim card, it's the reality check...we still have a way to go but we are ever so slowly making progress.

I hear what your saying , but countless posts by various refer to this notion of some of the players ( been around a bit longer) as being damaged from this previous era. I dont care for this idea any more. Things move on. The players in the main who remain are quite capable of committing to the game and efforts ( some not so well )

past is past

Yes I think the damage done to the club is close to irrepairable. Lets say for a minute Fremantle or Hawthorn or Port Adelaide or Syney had half their players banned effective immediately. I would still back any of them and lots of others to be ahead of Melbourne over a three to four year period. They are clubs with culture, success, facilities and strong member support. We have just fallen through the cracks.

What a pointless opinion.

Let's say you are right - what do we do? Give up? Not bother?

We will fight to keep getting better and it will come on in spurts and surges and we are 2 and 3 in the year 2015 and the end of the world, and indeed the club, is not nigh.

I want to see how the team that currently represents the club responds from a thoroughly uninspiring quarter and a half from last week.

Then I want to see it 16 more times and then I want to see how we make the team better over the summer.

Rinse and repeat and we will get better.

All this talk of being damaged and irreparable are pathetic.

We played the top of the ladder team, we had a bad fourth quarter and were average for the rest of the game.

Yes we are still far behind but are heading in the right direction. Stop the comparison's with the Dogs.

It's funny how all the critics and keyboard warriors are quiet after a win.

#stfu.

yes didn't hear the comparisons with the DOgs before the season started and after they got rid of their CEO, Coach and Captain.

Its mindless

Very similar to what took place at Port happening at the doggies, highly turbulent off season, leads to some quality appointments leads to a rise up the ladder no one thought they were capable of, especially without Libba

we're coming from alot further back though, our real rise will come when guys like Salem and Brayshaw get up towards the 50 games mark and start being able to impact games of footy consistently,

Very similar to what took place at Port happening at the doggies, highly turbulent off season, leads to some quality appointments leads to a rise up the ladder no one thought they were capable of, especially without Libba

we're coming from alot further back though, our real rise will come when guys like Salem and Brayshaw get up towards the 50 games mark and start being able to impact games of footy consistently,

Disagree that we're coming from alot further back. Dogs rise has come on the back of players who are in their 2nd/3rd seasons in Macrea, Stringer, Bont, Lin Jong and a bunch of no-name defenders (excluding Murphy). The difference is that the Dogs have promising depth in the VFL, whilst we're stuck with players who have shown that they can't impact at AFL level. Our delistings at year end won't be a difficult task.

Perverseness offered more than Dawes.

Ed: Pedersen... (Autocorrect)

I suppose Watts play may have been perverse thus keeping him ahead of Dawes

Interesting take on performance and so much more of an intellectual argument than the usual he was [censored] weak, useless, [censored],chiken livered, censored, censored%$#^& drop him

They were thumped by Hawthorn by 70pts two weeks ago.....Just saying.....

And Saints demolished by the Pies a couple of weeks ago.

No-one has confidence in him.

Thats why no-one kicks it to him.

You may be right but I think they need to tell both sides of the equation

Wattsy the boys are not gonna be able to deliver it to you on a plate expect that. But you are good enough to still get it if you make that extra effort and exhaust yourself. By then someone will be near you and will be able to take your better disposal and do something with it. Use them.

Boys kick it somewhere near Jack and follow up , he will now try that little harder at that point and get the ball to you cleanly and in good position to do something with it. Expect that. Use him

Probably too much to ask

Disagree that we're coming from alot further back. Dogs rise has come on the back of players who are in their 2nd/3rd seasons in Macrea, Stringer, Bont, Lin Jong and a bunch of no-name defenders (excluding Murphy). The difference is that the Dogs have promising depth in the VFL, whilst we're stuck with players who have shown that they can't impact at AFL level. Our delistings at year end won't be a difficult task.

Murphy, Boyd & Morris...Gia last year have known success. We've had to bring this in, it does take a bit longer to build a list when you are also trying to build leadership from scratch. We couldn't just draft kids.

... but as you say there will be more to move on at the end of the season and having players like Stretch, ANB & O Mac at Casey is the start of building some decent depth.

I hear what your saying , but countless posts by various refer to this notion of some of the players ( been around a bit longer) as being damaged from this previous era. I dont care for this idea any more. Things move on. The players in the main who remain are quite capable of committing to the game and efforts ( some not so well )

past is past

Yep, I think we probably have a few who may still struggle and don't expect them, to be around in 2016. The list has turned over substantially and I wouldn't use the damaged player excuse now.

It's the damage to the club and list that is still being worked through and that is taking time.

We're in good hand though.