Did you taste sick in your mouth looking through that team list too?

Less than three years on and only 15 remain.

Here's our list from 2012;

• 2 Nathan Jones

• 3 Clint Bartram

• 4 Jack Watts

• 5 Jordan Gysberts

• 6 Matthew Bate

• 7 Jamie Bennell

• 8 James Frawley

• 9 Jack Trengove

  (c)

• 10 Cale Morton

• 11 Mitch Clark

• 12 Colin Sylvia

• 13 Jordie McKenzie

• 14 Lynden Dunn

• 15 Ricky Petterd

• 16 Jack Grimes

  (c)

• 17 Sam Blease

• 18 Brad Green

• 19 James Strauss

• 20 Colin Garland

• 21 Lucas Cook

• 22 Brent Moloney

• 24 Liam Jurrah

• 25 Tom McDonald

• 30 James Sellar

• 34 Stefan Martin

• 35 Luke Tapscott

• 36 Aaron Davey

• 37 Max Gawn

• 38 Jeremy Howe

• 39 Neville Jetta

• 40 Mark Jamar

• 41 Troy Davis

• 42 Jake Spencer

• 43 Rory Taggert

• 44 Rohan Bail

• 46 Josh Tynan

• 48 Jack Fitzpatrick

Now, can either of you tell me who should've been captain?

The other question, if we made the "wrong" decision by appointing Trengove and Grimes, then what was the "right" decision?

At least when Carlton appointed Murphy there were a couple of other genuine options available (so it seemed from the outside).

Lynden Dunn & Mark Jamar.

Always let the babies grow.

What happened was the worst choice possible. Not only did the club tank for Trengove we hung the captaincy rock around his ankle.

How was he ever to lead by example when still learning the ropes???

Grimes has a lot of courage but is an average footballer

Hardly sets the highest example.

I predicted disaster and sadly it happened. The idiots responsible have all silently walked away.

Lynden Dunn & Mark Jamar.

Always let the babies grow.

What happened was the worst choice possible. Not only did the club tank for Trengove we hung the captaincy rock around his ankle.

How was he ever to lead by example when still learning the ropes???

Grimes has a lot of courage but is an average footballer

Hardly sets the highest example.

I predicted disaster and sadly it happened. The idiots responsible have all silently walked away.

Dunn wasn't in anywhere near the same form as he was last year. Jamar likewise. But again, you're making assumptions that you know what their leadership ability was like. I'm also glad no senior players from that Geelong game weren't made captain, because I would hate for any one of them to be leading the next generation (most of which have left anyway!).

To say Grimes hardly sets the highest example is a bold statement. The example that our coach wanted to set was for our captain/s to have elite performance in training and preparation. He had come from a club that had a captain that was far from the best on their list and won a premiership. Grimes was a monty in my view, was a matter of either going alone, or who he was going to share with. If you look back through most of the threads on here, a massive amount of posters wanted Trengove to be it.

Extract from Trigg's email update to members:

My highlight is.."Established a physical 'hub' within the Club that is to be a centre of list management excellence." Reminds me of 'Derek Zoolander Center For Children Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too'!

By way of an update for members we have:

- Secured an experienced GM of List Management and Strategy – Stephen Silvagni.

- Commenced the build of a list management database (the platform for which comes from the Boston Redsox) and an accompanying 'analytics program'. This program will allow us to store better information, benchmark and value players (our own and others), link it all to vision, and generally help us to make better and more informed decisions.

- Established a physical 'hub' within the Club that is to be a centre of list management excellence. Within that, Stephen will lead and work with the recruiting team, our opposition scout (Barry Prendergast) and our coaches. Their focus is on building sustainability for the future and building a premiership-winning list.

- Bolstered our relationship with the Northern Blues whereby they will play some curtain raisers to our AFL games. We are integrating Plans and Values, and we will have a CFC Director (Greg Lee) on the Northern Blues Board.

I want to emphasise to all members just how important all of this work has become.

It's critical work simply because we don't have enough depth or depth of experience. We have some bright young prospects, but we need more. We've often heard the call (from members) for 'no quick fixes', and we are very much aligned with that in our (List) Plans. We need to build for the future , and have an element of patience along the way. We have to draft superbly, access free agents/trades to supplement our growth, and develop (and coach) as effectively as we can over the coming years.

I believe we communicated that over the off-season. But after just a couple of rounds, let's be very clear about it...

- We have a significant list 're-build' in front of us.

- That re-build is going to take time.

- All of the many changes we've made over the off-season and our greater investment into list management is aimed at just that – building our list – and building success. No quick fixes, no white knights.

Moneyball!!!

Can't wait to throw this in the face of the first Carlton supporter I see.

I hope they spent big dollars on it too.

Extract from Trigg's email update to members:

My favourite part:

our opposition scout (Barry Prendergast)

Extract from Trigg's email update to members:

My highlight is.."Established a physical 'hub' within the Club that is to be a centre of list management excellence." Reminds me of 'Derek Zoolander Center For Children Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too'!

By way of an update for members we have:

- Commenced the build of a list management database (the platform for which comes from the Boston Redsox) and an accompanying 'analytics program'. This program will allow us to store better information, benchmark and value players (our own and others), link it all to vision, and generally help us to make better and more informed decisions.

- Established a physical 'hub' within the Club that is to be a centre of list management excellence.

LOL, good get demoniac and you are spot on with the Zoolander comparison.

A physical hub, a centre of excellence and an analytics program - that's another way of saying 'we bought a new photocopier and installed Windows '97.'

The 'list management database' idea is pretty cutting edge too, I'm surprised they've gone public with it!

- Commenced the build of a list management database (the platform for which comes from the Boston Redsox) and an accompanying 'analytics program'. This program will allow us to store better information, benchmark and value players (our own and others), link it all to vision, and generally help us to make better and more informed decisions.

I want to emphasise to all members just how important all of this work has become.

It's critical work simply because we don't have enough depth or depth of experience. We have some bright young prospects, but we need more. We've often heard the call (from members) for 'no quick fixes', and we are very much aligned with that in our (List) Plans. We need to build for the future , and have an element of patience along the way. We have to draft superbly, access free agents/trades to supplement our growth, and develop (and coach) as effectively as we can over the coming years.

I believe we communicated that over the off-season. But after just a couple of rounds, let's be very clear about it...

- We have a significant list 're-build' in front of us.

- That re-build is going to take time.

- All of the many changes we've made over the off-season and our greater investment into list management is aimed at just that – building our list – and building success. No quick fixes, no white knights.

Good on them - Well done Triggy. Tell it how it is. ( Silvani & BP as opposition scout will make a good team now they are finally using soiftware )

The 'list management database' idea is pretty cutting edge too, I'm surprised they've gone public with it!

Bull dust they are 6-10 years behind other teams. This is old hat stuff.

Giants already sniffing around

Murph is a good number two midfielder. He needs Judd firing to play his best. He will never be the number one man and that's ok, just have to realise hes never going to win a Charlie. Still hes a very important player and I'd take him in a heart beat.

Free him from the captaincy and the shocking politics he'd have to listen to at the blues each week and he will be back to his best asap.

Imo he's a better player than Vince and we all sing Bernies praise week after week.

I wouldn't trade our first rounder for him but if he was up for offer I'd go hard.

Out starting 22 this week is the best I have seen it for a while. I'd still pick him before 19 of them

Giants already sniffing around

fee fi fo fum

anything to do with a beanstalk, jack?

Here's our list from 2012;

• 2 Nathan Jones
• 3 Clint Bartram
• 4 Jack Watts
• 5 Jordan Gysberts
• 6 Matthew Bate
• 7 Jamie Bennell
• 8 James Frawley
• 9 Jack Trengove (c)
• 10 Cale Morton
• 11 Mitch Clark
• 12 Colin Sylvia
• 13 Jordie McKenzie
• 14 Lynden Dunn
• 15 Ricky Petterd
• 16 Jack Grimes (c)
• 17 Sam Blease
• 18 Brad Green
• 19 James Strauss
• 20 Colin Garland

• 21 Lucas Cook
• 22 Brent Moloney
• 24 Liam Jurrah
• 25 Tom McDonald
• 30 James Sellar
• 34 Stefan Martin
• 35 Luke Tapscott
• 36 Aaron Davey
• 37 Max Gawn
• 38 Jeremy Howe
• 39 Neville Jetta
• 40 Mark Jamar
• 41 Troy Davis
• 42 Jake Spencer
• 43 Rory Taggert
• 44 Rohan Bail
• 46 Josh Tynan
• 48 Jack Fitzpatrick

Now, can either of you tell me who should've been captain?

The other question, if we made the "wrong" decision by appointing Trengove and Grimes, then what was the "right" decision?

At least when Carlton appointed Murphy there were a couple of other genuine options available (so it seemed from the outside).

Brad Green springs to mind.

Lynden Dunn & Mark Jamar.

Always let the babies grow.

What happened was the worst choice possible. Not only did the club tank for Trengove we hung the captaincy rock around his ankle.

How was he ever to lead by example when still learning the ropes???

Grimes has a lot of courage but is an average footballer

Hardly sets the highest example.

I predicted disaster and sadly it happened. The idiots responsible have all silently walked away.

Sorry, but this is revisionist rubbish. Dunn was nowhere near it and Jamar has the leadership qualities of Humphrey B. Bear.

Overrated player, had one or two really good years, but has been on decline since he got the captaincy. I'd fear seeing an even greater fall in form if we somehow coaxed him. No from me.

not making lucas cook captain probably explains his lack of development

plus we could have had a new record for youngest captain

Making Taggert captain would've been a good excuse to actually play him

Sorry, but this is revisionist rubbish. Dunn was nowhere near it and Jamar has the leadership qualities of Humphrey B. Bear.

and what we got was better?

and what we got was better?

Than Dunn and Jamar?

Absolutely.

So Carlton really employed Prendergast? That's so funny I s--t myself laughing.

Than Dunn and Jamar?

Absolutely.

Disagree. I am not saying Dunn or Jamar would make good Captains But making Grimes & Trengove Captains together was Fatal.

Brad Green springs to mind.

He was the previous year which was 2011. There was no more important player on that day down at Geelong (in 2011) than Green. He should never have allowed what went on, and he rightly was stripped of captaincy the next year. He clearly had either lost the senior players, or he just went along with what they were doing. Inexcusable.

I would strongly prefer that we invest our hard earned in a young 'up and comer' from the likes of GWS or GCS than go for Murphy. Invest for the future, not for the present.

Shiel > Murphy. Both would probably cost us our first round pick but Shiel has far more upside. He's a harder, faster and stronger player who'll play for another 7-8 years after Murphy retires.

Edited April 24, 201510 yr by Demon Jack

I wouldn't trade cowpats with Carlton for fear of getting ripped off.

He was the previous year which was 2011. There was no more important player on that day down at Geelong (in 2011) than Green. He should never have allowed what went on, and he rightly was stripped of captaincy the next year. He clearly had either lost the senior players, or he just went along with what they were doing. Inexcusable.

I agree - as per discussion with WYL above I really think they made the only choice open to them in the circumstances. I certainly wouldn't have gone with Dunn or Jamar and really Brad Green was the only player on that list even remotely with the capacity to captain other than the two who got it, so they were pretty stuffed whichever way they went really.

My view is at least they had a go at putting the future in charge, not the past.

The cupboard is empty at the Princess's park.

Computer says "No"!

You know nothing John Snow!

You call that a knife?!

I'm sorry John!

There's nothing for you here!

Etc...

Edited April 24, 201510 yr by PaulRB