Wolfmother I don't think this is a case of people being shouted down. When if comes down to it, "no records" is not significantly different from inadequate ones which provide no evidence either way.

But it does bear on the issue of did they destroy incriminating records. The existence of poor records is some indication that nothing was destroyed. Only some indication though, not conclusive evidence.

As you would expect from an illegal drug problem.

The fact is that records exists including there records of players receiving thymosin injections. Essendon also has records of injections of amino acids which could refer to anything and one of a number of reasons their records were deemed inadequate. If ASADA prove that the only thymosin essendon had at windy hill was TB4 it's game over

I dare says it also applies that if Essendon cant prove it had any other form of Thymosin ...the game is over. Its actually requisite upon the EFC to do so.

ASADA , as I understand it dont have to put a smoking gun in anyones hand, just show that beyond the balance of probability and to the comfort of the tribunal's understanding that in the absence of anything to substantiate otherwise then it must surely therefore be the TB4 which was used.

if Essendon could have proven anything otherwise they would not be where they are today.

He doesn't say what they were records of. All clubs have day to day records on spreadsheets on club intranets that record a whole lot of information about the players. The players have an app that they fill in everyday when they wake up. It has stuff like how many hours sleep, how fatigued their bodies feel, etc etc. Dank might be talking about this for all we know. It might have had no record of the drug regime at all.

This guy shows characteristics of a classic fraud. Everything is double speak. He doesn't say all the drugs were legal he says they were approved somewhere in the world. But for what. EPO was originally developed and approved as a blood thickener for cancer patients. It was later discovered that it was a very useful Performance Enhancer. On his logic Dank would be saying it is ok because it was approved. Who's he trying to fool.

Dank is trying to fool everybody.

Thats the point.

And so far he is doing a great job...he has stayed out of courts

Dank seems utterly convinced that he is the smartest person in the room and has everyone fooled. Sadly for him this is not the case and the vast majority have understood from the beginning that he's full of it. He's like the sociopath they trained wrong as a joke.

Agreed if tb4 is proven to be there by ASADA it's up to essendon to prove that it wasn't used as thymosin injections as it their defence

Sue

I thought a few(no all) had a go at binman even though he was asking if anyone had seen the actually statement. This including referencing the charge sheet which doesn't demonstrate no records which is what people are claiming. Like binman suggested this hasn't been stated anywhere but is constantly stated as fact.

I don't know the completeness of the records but would suggest the issue are around the listing of amino acids as the injection as this does describe the players injection but could be a hundred different things.

Most people believe there is no records which I believe is false. I also believe the incomplete records aren't as bad as everyone believes.

Yes, if they were destroyed that is another matter completely but I doubt this has occurred. Most people are putting 2 + 2 together when they heard there are no records and thinking its impossible such a program wasn't recorded some how. As EFC computers were forensically investigated I doubt they could of deleted them to that level even if they wanted too.

ASADA , as I understand it dont have to put a smoking gun in anyones hand, just show that beyond the balance of probability and to the comfort of the tribunal's understanding that in the absence of anything to substantiate otherwise then it must surely therefore be the TB4 which was used.

BB, for your information, this is not the correct onus of proof. This is the one for Civil Cases, there is a unique one for this Tribunal which is "comfortable satisfaction".

This onus has been confirmed in a High Court case and believe it or not is a higher onus than balance of probability but is lower than the Criminal onus of beyond reasonable doubt.

BB, for your information, this is not the correct onus of proof. This is the one for Civil Cases, there is a unique one for this Tribunal which is "comfortable satisfaction".

This onus has been confirmed in a High Court case and believe it or not is a higher onus than balance of probability but is lower than the Criminal onus of beyond reasonable doubt.

suggest you might actually reread what I wrote..and not what you think I did..just suggesting :0

There was a post on BigFooty where the poster understands a Winston Wolf type was called into EFC between Demetriou tipping off David Evans and EFC 'self-reporting'. No doubt the records of what was taken disappeared in this period. EFC know what was taken - it is an inconvenient truth for them and by 'losing' the records were hoping it would make it impossible for ASADA to prove it. Unluckily for the Bummers it will (hopefully) be proven that TB4 was used through the chain of custody from China to EFC, and that no other form of thymosin was used at EFC. They really do think their [censored] doesn't stink at Tullamarine - I'm not sure why they see their club as so special. They are not even in the biggest 3 clubs in Victoria, but do have a lot of supporters and former players in the media pushing their barrow. Amusingly they also have Bruce Francis.

The thing that amazes me over this whole saga is how propaganda can influence the masses. The clever use of the media by essendon has resulted in a fair amount of their supporters believing the club did nothing wrong and this is a witch hunt. If they had admitted straight away to a drug program even in error, I believe they would have lost a lot of their fan base. This way they have been able to keep their fan base even if found guilty as most will believe its a set up.

It really demonstrates with power and money you can nearly get away with anything

The thing that amazes me over this whole saga is how propaganda can influence the masses. The clever use of the media by essendon has resulted in a fair amount of their supporters believing the club did nothing wrong and this is a witch hunt. If they had admitted straight away to a drug program even in error, I believe they would have lost a lot of their fan base. This way they have been able to keep their fan base even if found guilty as most will believe its a set up.

For me, their actions have centred not so much on the possibility of losing fans, but of losing sponsors.

Will be interesting to see how the likes of Kia react if the players go down.

For me, their actions have centred not so much on the possibility of losing fans, but of losing sponsors.

Will be interesting to see how the likes of Kia react if the players go down.

Agreed even the AFL not putting into practice the contingency plan until the start of the NAB cup seems weird. Why wouldn't you have had top up players training since nov/dec/jan with the IN issues.

The only reason I can see is to allow essendon to pretend is business as usual and we will just get this silly tribunal thing out of the way prior to the start of the season. This way they can still sell membership, corporate packages and sponsorships like its a normal season and fake surprise when they are suspended rather than have it hit their bottom dollar if people realise this suspension could be real as the club is preparing for it

Agreed even the AFL not putting into practice the contingency plan until the start of the NAB cup seems weird. Why wouldn't you have had top up players training since nov/dec/jan with the IN issues.

The only reason I can see is to allow essendon to pretend is business as usual and we will just get this silly tribunal thing out of the way prior to the start of the season. This way they can still sell membership, corporate packages and sponsorships like its a normal season and fake surprise when they are suspended rather than have it hit their bottom dollar if people realise this suspension could be real as the club is preparing for it

Its not only Wada/asada in new territory but the AFL too. I can appreciate the Leagues overseers have the comps welfare to consider....but at the expense of probity ?

Its not only Wada/asada in new territory but the AFL too. I can appreciate the Leagues overseers have the comps welfare to consider....but at the expense of probity ?

Not sure the AFL can spell probity BB

I think it's also a phenomenon that's becoming much more common and virulent in the internet age. It used to be that one would have to get one's news from the mass media, and if one wanted to discuss an issue then it would have to be with one's social peers. In this way, it would be nearly impossible to avoid being confronted with arguments or facts that run contrary to one's own world view, and one would be pressed to adjust accordingly. These days, we can log onto the internet, and never have to hear a single opinion that one doesn't like. In politics, for example, it would be possible for me to log onto a partisan media outlet and then onto a forum populated entirely by people who entirely agree with me. I can go the whole day and have every single one of my opinions reinforced and not a single one of them challenged. It's almost inevitable that my ideas will become radicalized and increasingly distanced from reality.

This is basically what's happened to essendon supporters now. They only trust some specific members of the media (I.e. Those who are pro essendon sycophants), they refuse to discuss the issue with their peers and they retreat at the first opportunity to their safe-place forums. Ideas that are expressed there snowball, and speculative ideas soon grow - through mass repetition and lack of questioning - into simply unimpeachable truths. Like their political equivalents, football fans on a football forum begin to develop a siege mentality, and become increasingly dependent on paranoid conspiracy theories to keep the increasingly unstable construct standing. For essendon supporters, this has become the simply unquestionable mantra that their is a joint afl, Asada and mass media conspiracy to persecute essendon even though they've done nothing wrong. Why any of these parties would be motivated to do such a thing is, of course, not a question that anyone there is permitted to ask.

When it becomes inconvenient or even not permitted to question the basis of one's world view, inevitably incoherence will begin to set in because one is unreflectively just accepting convenient talking points without making any attempt to calibrate them against empirical reality. In such a way, inconsistencies - obvious to anyone but the group themselves - begin to set in. The club don't know what the players took but it was nothing illegal. Hird cards deeply about the welfare of the players but has no idea what the players were being injected with. Asada and the AFL are simultaneously evil, calculating masterminds and bumbling idiots. And so on -reality very quickly runs away from you if you aren't forced to take stock of it every now and then. That, incidentally, is why it's good to have people who reliably go against the group opinion on boards such as this one, rather than hounding them out of town at the first opportunity.

Argument is not the ideal system to determine truth but it is the system we have been indoctrinated in. It does serve it's purpose as long as the sides listen and accept that the other position could be correct. Watch out when emotion, parochialism and tribalism take over.

Mandee you are probably right. I'm not arguing that their records are woeful. What i'm saying is that for months (now years?) there seems to be this general acceptance that the EFC have no records and that is the line that is being pushed. Why i ask? What is the motivation?

I suspect that as you say the records are perhaps shoddy but i very much doubt ASADA have not been able to find incriminating records and that their case includes reference to them

It's not true. They kept the records next to Dean Wallis' photo of the Thymomodulin bottle. All very legit..

Amazing discussion going on here. Pedantic but interesting.

If it's easy enough for us to work through the evidence as we know it.

Then come to the conclusion that most of us have.

How do you think the tribunal will respond when they have all the evidence.?

There is so much against them and nothing for them.

Bye Bye bombers.

Pig if only it was that simple

Pig if only it was that simple

it may not be that hard either Ernest...they simply have a path of necessity to walk...the destination may be well cast .

Very elegantly stated Beezle.

So many esteemed people to look so crudely silly and that is not even including players, coaches and officials.

Really this coming decision owes it to the public to be demonstrable so that even Essendon supporters can be in no doubt as to what took place, where and by who.

The law must not only be done but be seen to be done as I have no doubt it will eventually....

I think quietly the AFL is out of its depth.

They are severely compromised and realising they arent in control of eventualities adopting the stay low say nothing position.

The AFL is a trifle scared of some other authority reigning over its field of play.

The little goldfish bowl has been usurped by a larger pond.

.....

As EFC computers were forensically investigated I doubt they could of deleted them to that level even if they wanted too.

Disagree. Unless you call in the NSA, and even then, it is not that hard to delete files completely if you know what you are doing (and without physically destroying and dumping the disk drives into the Yarra). Your main danger is making sure you have also got all the backups deleted similarly. Assuming of course you do back up ........

That said, I'm not saying they did delete anything - I suspect they weren't tech savy enough to be sure they got it all and would be worried about how bad if would look if something popped up which wasn't meant to exist any longer or they carelessly left some other trace in re-writing back all the kosher data.

Anyway, we don't have any idea of how forensically EFC's systems were examined so it do we? Were all their computers marched off-site, and if so, by whom?

Sue.. I susoect yhe relevant info was never on an EFC drive. Best look ay wherever conducted the off site program.

To me this all goes to the design of the program ....ie the instigators knew to keep it away from harms eye !!!

....

Anyway, we don't have any idea of how forensically EFC's systems were examined so it do we? Were all their computers marched off-site, and if so, by whom?

'ASADA also engaged consulting firm Deloitte to conduct a forensic analysis of the computer and mobile phone of one key witness.'

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-doping-saga-asada-accusations-now-turn-to-shanghai-factory/story-fni5ezdm-1227088199608