Disagree with your matchups of Dunn on Schulz and McDonald on Westhoff. I'd swap them around.

McDonald should always play on the premier forward who is likely to kick the most goals - which is Schulz.

We should have learnt this lesson against the Bulldogs when Dunn played on the dangerous Crameri and had 4 kicked on him. McDonald should have taken him.

Having said that, Westhoff can be very dangerous on his day.

If you leave a forward space to lead into and a midfield getting their hands on the ball first, it doesn't matter who is on him, that's what we need to stop, good thing is they can swap over as well

Maybe you meant "huge feather in Nev's boa ..."?

Any thoughts BBO???

Chad Wingard would be a great fit and huge feather in Nev's bow should he be able to repeat his effort on Betts

I love mixed metaphors. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to work that out!

The interesting thing about Toumpas is I feel he has been very serviceable this year, averaging 17 touches, high efficiency, getting more physical and a few tackles, kicking almost a goal a game when he plays, and showing signs of class, the pass to Watts against Richmond was just beautiful to watch.

but I think that gets missed because of the Wines comparisons, I am happy Wines is playing as well as he is but I don't have an issue with Toumps output and training habbits for a second year player.

This is exactly right. He is in his second year of AFL football (having in his first year played at a dysfunctional club with poor development and recovering from hip surgery). He is tracking just fine. It is a relatively modern phenomenon to expect young players to come in and be AFL ready straight away (and get all hand wringingly nervous when they don't). Some can't and some can.

But look at how the good clubs develop their young players - the swans, cats, hawks. All get the grounding and development they need. And if this means lots of games in the twos then so be it. In short all are properly developed according to their own needs and where they are at. Roos has made it clear that this is precisely his philosophy. Heck you can see his approach writ large in the current Swans team - a team whose list and culture has been shaped by Roos and Longmire has continued to build on.

I have said before but the Wines comparisons are a furpphy (not to mention a complete waste of time given we can't go back). Why compare the Toump to only Wines - or indeed to Wines at all. Whose to say it was a case of either the Toump or Wines for the dees? The bulldogs rejected Wines and took Jake Stringer and Jackson MCrae with picks 5 and 6 - as we might have - before Port picked Wines at 7.

Why not compare the Toump's to how they are going. Hell why not compare his progress to any of the other say picks 4-15 we might have taken if we had wanted - or for that matter picks 1,2 and 3 that GWS had (who don't seem to be copping any criticism for not taking Wines).

When you do look at it with some balance and not with the i love Wines goggles you can see the Toump is tracking fine when compared with his peers. Interesting that when you do so you there are players like: Vlasutin who was awesome last year but slowed a bit, Daniher who was dropped this week and Troy Menzel who only played 8 games last year and has only been ok thus far in his 8 games this year (averging 44 dt points). Here's the list

This is exactly right. He is in his second year of AFL football (having in his first year played at a dysfunctional club with poor development and recovering from hip surgery). He is tracking just fine. It is a relatively modern phenomenon to expect young players to come in and be AFL ready straight away (and get all hand wringingly nervous when they don't). Some can't and some can.

But look at how the good clubs develop their young players - the swans, cats, hawks. All get the grounding and development they need. And if this means lots of games in the twos then so be it. In short all are properly developed according to their own needs and where they are at. Roos has made it clear that this is precisely his philosophy. Heck you can see his approach writ large in the current Swans team - a team whose list and culture has been shaped by Roos and Longmire has continued to build on.

I have said before but the Wines comparisons are a furpphy (not to mention a complete waste of time given we can't go back). Why compare the Toump to only Wines - or indeed to Wines at all. Whose to say it was a case of either the Toump or Wines for the dees? The bulldogs rejected Wines and took Jake Stringer and Jackson MCrae with picks 5 and 6 - as we might have - before Port picked Wines at 7.

Why not compare the Toump's to how they are going. Hell why not compare his progress to any of the other say picks 4-15 we might have taken if we had wanted - or for that matter picks 1,2 and 3 that GWS had (who don't seem to be copping any criticism for not taking Wines).

When you do look at with some balance and not with the i love Wines goggles you will see the Toump is tracking fine when compared with his peers. Interesting that when you do dso you players like Vlasutin who was awesome last year who has slowed, Daniher who was dropped this week and Troy Menzel who only played 8 games last year and has only been ok thus far in his 8 games this year (avering 44 dt points). Here's the list

When I watch a young bloke play the things I want to see are workrate, desire, and little flashes of class, MOST young players will start off slow and build and MOST are inconsistent even when they do start to get going, but I feel the Toump has improved steadily, the next two years are about 1 getting to the point he is consistently in our best 22, and from there finding a role that suits his strengths, elite skills, gut running, leadership

When I watch a young bloke play the things I want to see are workrate, desire, and little flashes of class, MOST young players will start off slow and build and MOST are inconsistent even when they do start to get going, but I feel the Toump has improved steadily, the next two years are about 1 getting to the point he is consistently in our best 22, and from there finding a role that suits his strengths, elite skills, gut running, leadership

Toump got a lot of games last year which he didn't deserve and by contrast he has been a bit stiff this year.

He had a really strong pre-season doing all the running and then when it came to selection found himself being made a small forward, which we all know is a graveyard when you lose.

His first two games were just OK but like others he struggled to get the ball and because Shannon Byrnes kicked two goals against the Eagles, he was victim of the only purge we had this season after the shocker against West Coast.

He looked fairly classy against Tigers and with Salem playing that small role, he was able to play a bit more upfield and got his hands on a bit more cheap ball where he used his classy disposal skills.

Ultimately, however, just like Trengove, he needs to find an extra yard or he will never quite make it. I just hope Misson realises that they need a sprints coach to come in and assist and both these guys need to make a session of 50x50m part of their weekly routine.

Toumpas still might make it as a Kade Simpson type because he has elite disposal skills and the good thing is that he is very willing to tackle - unlike some outside players. He might eventually become an inside-player, but we all know that's not why he was recruited - he was chosen because he was the most skillful outside running player of his year - the problem was that because he was injured mid-season, our recruiting gurus failed to realise that he lacked true speed - a pretty important commodity I would have thought for an outside player. Todd Viney, if you recall, wanted Wines but was overruled. What I'd like to know is whether he was over-ruled by Neeld?

But regardless of whether it was Neeld, Jimmy T is a great bloke to have around the club from all reports and he has shown that he might become a very handy inside player down the track when he gets another chance.

And if we get another player with speed in this year's draft - eg: WA's Clem Smith - then the issue about his leg-speed and Trengove's becomes less crucial - because he has the right other attrributes.

Although the next 8 matches look tough at first glance - there are some very winnable games there.

A competitive match against Port is all I ask for.

Then we have Collingwood (6th), Essendon (11th), Norh (8th) - three teams which are not really playing the brand of footy you would expect from them - all winnable (Looking forward to the Queens birthday match!)

Then we play the Bulldogs - which I expect to win.

I think it is very reasonable to expect two wins out of those 4 matches.

I think a competitive game against Port (<25 pts) and a win against Collingwood could give us great momentum.

Toump got a lot of games last year which he didn't deserve and by contrast he has been a bit stiff this year.

He had a really strong pre-season doing all the running and then when it came to selection found himself being made a small forward, which we all know is a graveyard when you lose.

His first two games were just OK but like others he struggled to get the ball and because Shannon Byrnes kicked two goals against the Eagles, he was victim of the only purge we had this season after the shocker against West Coast.

He looked fairly classy against Tigers and with Salem playing that small role, he was able to play a bit more upfield and got his hands on a bit more cheap ball where he used his classy disposal skills.

Ultimately, however, just like Trengove, he needs to find an extra yard or he will never quite make it. I just hope Misson realises that they need a sprints coach to come in and assist and both these guys need to make a session of 50x50m part of their weekly routine.

Toumpas still might make it as a Kade Simpson type because he has elite disposal skills and the good thing is that he is very willing to tackle - unlike some outside players. He might eventually become an inside-player, but we all know that's not why he was recruited - he was chosen because he was the most skillful outside running player of his year - the problem was that because he was injured mid-season, our recruiting gurus failed to realise that he lacked true speed - a pretty important commodity I would have thought for an outside player. Todd Viney, if you recall, wanted Wines but was overruled. What I'd like to know is whether he was over-ruled by Neeld?

But regardless of whether it was Neeld, Jimmy T is a great bloke to have around the club from all reports and he has shown that he might become a very handy inside player down the track when he gets another chance.

And if we get another player with speed in this year's draft - eg: WA's Clem Smith - then the issue about his leg-speed and Trengove's becomes less crucial - because he has the right other attrributes.

Jimmy Toumpas was drafted because he had displayed an ability to play inside and outside, was never fast but ran hard which is exactly what he is doing for us and his skills were damaging, I am not big on the idea all players need to be fast, jimmy is smart, abit like Joey montagna or Nick dal santo, or even pendels, they aren't quick

Jack Trengove in my opinion has been played out of position, and the foot injury has probably dropped his pace and penetration abit making the outside role very tough for him, I see Trenners as a centre bounce inside mid, he makes good decisions, has good skills and isn't bad in traffic, I reckon Roosy will have him back in the middle next year

I don't believe the rumours that Neeld overruled Viney about Wines, sure Todd may have wanted Wines on a personal level but Toumpas was rated top 2 in that draft all year until right at the end, the only reason we didn't talk about him more earlier than we did is that we didn't think he'd be around at our pick, but that's irrelevant, I still believe Toumpas will be a very solid 200 gamer for us.

Although the next 8 matches look tough at first glance - there are some very winnable games there.

A competitive match against Port is all I ask for.

Then we have Collingwood (6th), Essendon (11th), Norh (8th) - three teams which are not really playing the brand of footy you would expect from them - all winnable (Looking forward to the Queens birthday match!)

Then we play the Bulldogs - which I expect to win.

I think it is very reasonable to expect two wins out of those 4 matches.

I think a competitive game against Port (<20 pts) and a win against Collingwood could give us great momentum.

Expect nothing. That would be my message if I was Roos.

Go into each game enjoying the fact that you know you and your teammates are going to give one hell of a fight every time you suit up. That is the only expectation - the rest is up to your own development.

Can we minimise skill errors?

Can we defensively pressure the drive off the HBF of other teams?

Can we continue to beat teams in the stoppages?

Can we run defensively as a unit for 120 minutes?

We answer those questions in the affirmative and still lose I am afraid - even against middling teams - it's just where we are at.

Collingwood, Essendon, and North are as good, better, or far superior teams than us so I only expect a team that believes they can win and be disappointed they didn't win.

Who would help us out more in getting a win? Toumpas or Salem?

Who would help us out more in getting a win? Toumpas or Salem?

I thought the Toump to be honest as Salem looks to be tiring. That said Salem could be damaging as a small half forward. Any thoughts on whether he'll start a sub and if not who might?

Maybe you meant "huge feather in Nev's boa ..."?

Any thoughts BBO???

Ask Stuie!

Riley out replaced by Toump.

No details as yet

That's what I see 'Roost it' never quite got the excitement about him that some on here seem to have

He wasn't the obvious choice at the time and he is very slow when I have watched him live

I have no problem with you not rating him.

What does irks me is making up blatant nonsense.

Toumpas may not have been the obvious choice for YOU at the time but was rated top 3 by all the TAC watchers. Go back and do some homework.

I have no problem with you not rating him.

What does irks me is making up blatant nonsense.

Toumpas may not have been the obvious choice for YOU at the time but was rated top 3 by all the TAC watchers. Go back and do some homework.

And more to the point Wines was not rated as the best number 4 as evidenced by the fact he was taken at number 7!

Toumpas a late inclusion for Reilly

Disagree with your matchups of Dunn on Schulz and McDonald on Westhoff. I'd swap them around.

McDonald should always play on the premier forward who is likely to kick the most goals - which is Schulz.

We should have learnt this lesson against the Bulldogs when Dunn played on the dangerous Crameri and had 4 kicked on him. McDonald should have taken him.

Having said that, Westhoff can be very dangerous on his day.

I guess. I was going to put either or in there. Might even be Garland on one of the bigger guys and use Dunn in a different role. They seem to like McDonald on the most dangerous forward for most games this year but at the same time they like Dunn deep and McDonald up the ground. Port are strange mix because they don't have that second ruck who sits in the goal square and instead use Westhoff as such a mobile forward up the ground and then he rucks or Trengove does.

Ideally Frawley returns to the backline soon so we Dunn and Garland can play smaller but I understand the need for a fast big man up forward even if Frawley isn't a natural forward.

And more to the point Wines was not rated as the best number 4 as evidenced by the fact he was taken at number 7!

History re-writing does my head in !

Disagree with your matchups of Dunn on Schulz and McDonald on Westhoff. I'd swap them around.

McDonald should always play on the premier forward who is likely to kick the most goals - which is Schulz.

We should have learnt this lesson against the Bulldogs when Dunn played on the dangerous Crameri and had 4 kicked on him. McDonald should have taken him.

Having said that, Westhoff can be very dangerous on his day.

I think McDonald will take Westoff; he has a big tank and runs all day, Tommy Mc is the only one with the capacity to go with him. Dunn or Garland will take Schulz.

Who would help us out more in getting a win? Toumpas or Salem?

Salem.

They're coming off a tough one while we are rested. We have a strong side (though Dawes is a key loss) they have some important outs. I'm sure the team will see this as litmus test and go for it. Who knows - if we are still in it deep in the 3rd quarter they will feel some pressure?

Strong midfield and forwardline, but the backline are just hard-working role players.

Is anyone else really worried about Schulz? Neither Dunn, Garland or McDonald are really the right match for him.

Yep. A big bag's on the cards, I reckon. He and Wingard might just be the difference.

Garland to Schulz

McDonald to Westhoff

Jetta to Wingard

Grimes to Gray

Dunn and Terlich to whoever is left

Toump got a lot of games last year which he didn't deserve and by contrast he has been a bit stiff this year.

He had a really strong pre-season doing all the running and then when it came to selection found himself being made a small forward, which we all know is a graveyard when you lose.

His first two games were just OK but like others he struggled to get the ball and because Shannon Byrnes kicked two goals against the Eagles, he was victim of the only purge we had this season after the shocker against West Coast.

He looked fairly classy against Tigers and with Salem playing that small role, he was able to play a bit more upfield and got his hands on a bit more cheap ball where he used his classy disposal skills.

Ultimately, however, just like Trengove, he needs to find an extra yard or he will never quite make it. I just hope Misson realises that they need a sprints coach to come in and assist and both these guys need to make a session of 50x50m part of their weekly routine.

Toumpas still might make it as a Kade Simpson type because he has elite disposal skills and the good thing is that he is very willing to tackle - unlike some outside players. He might eventually become an inside-player, but we all know that's not why he was recruited - he was chosen because he was the most skillful outside running player of his year - the problem was that because he was injured mid-season, our recruiting gurus failed to realise that he lacked true speed - a pretty important commodity I would have thought for an outside player. Todd Viney, if you recall, wanted Wines but was overruled. What I'd like to know is whether he was over-ruled by Neeld?

But regardless of whether it was Neeld, Jimmy T is a great bloke to have around the club from all reports and he has shown that he might become a very handy inside player down the track when he gets another chance.

And if we get another player with speed in this year's draft - eg: WA's Clem Smith - then the issue about his leg-speed and Trengove's becomes less crucial - because he has the right other attrributes.

I'll be intrigued to see how Roos plays Trenners upon his return. I'd say he'll probably play him as a defensive forward, come wingman. It'll be interesting to see though. In his first two years he was a terrific kick from outside 50, he could be very dangerous on the edge of the 50m arc and his tackling pressure could be a real asset, despite his lack of speed. He's a smart player. Can't wait for his return. Digression!

I think Cross will take Boak, or will Jones take him and Cross go to Ebert? Bail will play defensive forward on Broadbent who is their distributor from half back but their plan b will be Pittard who is also a good kick and will take the game on if we let him.

Jimmy Toumpas was drafted because he had displayed an ability to play inside and outside, was never fast but ran hard which is exactly what he is doing for us and his skills were damaging, I am not big on the idea all players need to be fast, jimmy is smart, abit like Joey montagna or Nick dal santo, or even pendels, they aren't quick

Jack Trengove in my opinion has been played out of position, and the foot injury has probably dropped his pace and penetration abit making the outside role very tough for him, I see Trenners as a centre bounce inside mid, he makes good decisions, has good skills and isn't bad in traffic, I reckon Roosy will have him back in the middle next year

I don't believe the rumours that Neeld overruled Viney about Wines, sure Todd may have wanted Wines on a personal level but Toumpas was rated top 2 in that draft all year until right at the end, the only reason we didn't talk about him more earlier than we did is that we didn't think he'd be around at our pick, but that's irrelevant, I still believe Toumpas will be a very solid 200 gamer for us.

That could work too. With a new midfield coach in Stone, I would expect him to look less lost and actually know where to be positioned at stoppages. Last year he looked lost, but so did most of our mids.

Lets knock off another South Aussie scum team