When will we see the tide turn?

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

When the tide does turn (and after some reflection I think it will be sooner than some think) it will turn quickly. I'm not talking about domination just competitiveness. In 2010 Richmond was the worst team since Fitzroy. Last year the Doggies were on a 15-16 game losing streak. Ours has been prolonged for numerous reasons but I think we will see improvement by the end of the year and into next year.

When the tide does turn it is going to feel that much better cheering the Mighty Demons on to a win at the G knowing the collective hell this club has been through the last few years and knowing we die hards have endured it and come out the other side. Think back to some of our best wins at the G in recent years (the Queens Bday games 2000, 2004-2007, Essendon 2010-2012, the QF in 2000, 2004 R18 v Hawthorn etc) and remember how it felt when the red and blue were up and cheering in the stands. That will return and when it does it will be even better than before.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Dr. Gonzo

[Demon Dynasty 15,413]

I think Roos and co know exactly what's needed at Melbourne in terms of quality through the midfield. He mentioned before the season, and you can see it's given us some more depth but it's still not enough and he'll know that..

Forget about the forwardline for a minute, obviously we're struggling with our three kpps all injured....

One of the major problems lies within the psyche of many players on our list and we'll know we are on the right path only when we see the habits of these individuals change onfield. Either that, or they will not be on the list next year or the year after. I'm talking about individuals who perhaps have talent and skill, but due to poor development and what I would term 'MFC conditioning', play at an intensity and level that is far below what is required to succeed at this level. Jack Watts, James Frawley at times, Sam Blease etc are some examples.

Another problem is that due to our terrible track record with drafting in the past, we are relying on players who simply do not have the ability to play at this level. If you look at who we've moved on over the last few years you'll realise it's those guys who at other clubs would be the ones helping carry the team forward. But alas, due to a combination of poor player development, poor recruiting and/or being subject to this 'MFC Conditioning', they didn't and haven't come on. Examples are Gysberts, Cook, Bate, Morton, Maric, Sylvia, Bennell etc..

So the guys who are now getting games because of this huge turnover of players, (most of whom were picked early in their respective drafts) who shouldn't be are the following: Nicholson, Bail, Matt Jones, Byrnes, Pederson, Spencer etc

That's a list of very average players who on the weekend against West Coast gave us very little.

The problems with our list, development and culture are all very complex and the only way I see us improving over the next few years is by doing more smart trading and bringing in more 'quality' players such as Vince. The Tyson and Salem trade was a big win I believe and it would be huge if we could do something similar next year. I'm not opposed to another Cross-like pickup either. Getting him is completely different to when we went after Byrnes. Cross is as fit as ever and can play but the dogs needed to keep giving their plethora of young gun mids games. Byrnes was brought in purely because he was from a 'successful' environment.

I also have much greater faith in our recruiting department and that they won't make the same mistakes as the previous lot did.

Whilst I'm sure we'll have a more successful second half of the year, (providing our tall forwards are ready and our midfield stocks stay injury free), next offseason is going to be another huge one for the club with some of the decisions they need to make. We need to bring in more quality midfielders. If that can happen with Frawley leaving, so be it. I'd say he's almost shot the way he goes about it for us so I'm happy to look at the bigger picture.

We need quality, quality and more quality.

It's gonna be another long year..

A well constructed post, again, steve.

You have a good objective view of things mate

[Demon Dynasty 15,413]

When? When our leadership group stands up (on the field) would be a good start.

Leadership group:

Clarke - ?

Garland - back soon, so hope he sets good example

Frawley - playing without endeavour

Trengrove - struggling

Jones - Champion and quickly becoming the stand out leader

Grimes - tries hard but not effective

Are our leaders unified? Do they have their on-field leadership roles sorted? I didn't see many on field huddles/leaders talking on Sunday. I didn't see much encouragement (eg JKH 1st AFL goal). We don't have a leader on the forward half but none of our leaders took on the role on Sunday. I don't feel our leaders can galvanise the players when things aren't going well on the field. It can't be left only up to Jones to be the lone ranger. Even if leaders individually are having a bad game they can still stand up as leaders, can't they?

Our leaders need to stand up on the field!!!! As a leadership group not just as individuals. It is about behaviours guys, not titles!!! We need to see them lead on the field not at training, not at functions, not in the press. On the field!!!!

Until they do it will be very hard for the rest of the team to make the extra effort to be competative.

End rant.

Clark - "Blankety Blanks"

Garland - The only time i want him leading is with a heap of bounces, breaking lines and hitting up leads. And defensive punches lol. That's the best leadership he could give this Ent footed back line atm.

Frawley - Has never been a stand out leader IMO. A solid defender in the one on one contest but if he wins the ball he refuses to take opponents on or take any risks. Always the easiest give off lateral/backwards or just down the line for James.

Trengove - Love the bloke and hope he turns it around but i have a friend with a tortoise that moves faster. If you aint got it you aint got it.

Jones boy - The clandestine leader of the club for the last 2 seasons IMO. Doesn't need to become the stand out leader, as he's already standing up IMO. He is leading by every example, every bruising tackle, every clearance. The only thing missing here is match winning finish and top line disposal . Other than that we have ourselves one worthy captain.

He's leading the averages on so many key stats including..... contested, uncontested, clearances, effective disposals and tackles so far. What more can you say! If these blokes follow the jones boy and we get ourselves some great outside runners to take the game on, and a forward line (who knows when these things will happen), we will start winning.

[DemonOX 8,530]

It won't until EVERY player gives 100%

[Demon Dynasty 15,413]

We will start to improve when we stop making excuses. I have never known a sporting organisation to make and accept so many excuses. Still cannot believe the talk last week about forgetting about the scoreboard and I almost vomitted when I heard Jack Grimes was asked whether Paul Roos' contract situation is a distraction to the players. Bugger me how many things can people think up to excuse this lot. Paul Roos' contract didn't make Grimes fumble and bumble his way through the game last weekend. Paul Roos' contract ins't making Jack Trengove, for some bizarre reason, slow down and steady himself BEFORE HE EVEN GETS THE BALL! What these blokes are turning out is way below what we should expect from them, and there are still people that defend some of these things.

I remember watching Mark Baguley playing what I think might have been his second game for Essendon back in 2012 on a Friday night vs. Geelong. Watching it, I felt sorry for him because I thought 'Geez this bloke is so far out of his depth it isn't funny'. He looked way too slow for the game, couldn't hit a target and couldn't stop his man for love nor money. I thought there's no way they can play this bloke again. But the mistakes he was making aren't acceptable at Essendon. Whatever they told him, taught him, demanded from him or he demanded from himself he was able to cut those mistakes out and has been able to establish himself as a reliable role player for them within a very short period of time. Now you can't tell me he is considerably more talented than many of the players we have? And I don't believe it comes down to coaching. It comes down to what level of performance is acceptable at the football club. We are still excusing too many mistakes from people who shouldn't be committing them.

Yep... i'll second that

[Guest]

The tide will turn when two things happen:
1) When the club proves it can remain on the same page. Since 2007, we have blown wherever the winds have taken us. Firstly, we had to lose and invest in youth. We did that (rather dishonorably, I might add) for 2 and a bit years. We start showing some signs of improvement come 2010-2011 but for some, it appeared that the progress was coming too slow. Then a catastrophic event hit us (round 22, 2011) and we lost our nerve. From that point, the youth path was no good and we had to invest in experienced leaders (forgetting we had those and we threw them all away in the name of developing the kids). Then when that was seen to be a disaster (and trust me, the Neeld era was), that was discarded and our panacea for all was an experienced coach.
What we need to do now is stay the course. When the players see that there is some admin. stability around the joint then they will run out of excuses. They have been able to get a pass for so long because admin. has been so crap, how could admin question them?
2) When the club doesn't surrender when it hits a brick wall. Make no mistake. Last Saturday was a rolled gold disaster. One thing that worries me are the noises coming from the football media and some parts of the supporter base. Noises that suggest the season is over only two weeks in. The facts are that there are 20 rounds left. There is plenty of time to bounce back. There is no guarantee that that will happen but there is time.
If the playing group go into the rest of the year thinking the rest of the year is shot, then get ready for a redux of 2012/2013. They need to view each round as a chance for redemption and a chance to win.
When these two things start, then you will start to see a result.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

This whole blame the culture and development really grinds my gears.

The players need to taken some serious responsibility. At the end of the day the club has gone through two boards, two presidents, two CEOs, two coaches, and numerous staff... whats the largest common demoninator? I'll give you a hint; it's the people who actually play.

Subjected to 'Melbourne conditioning' - spare me.

They get paid on average $250k, and if you're a Melbourne player, for not a lot of work.

If they think they will be the best, or elite, just by doing what's required of them then not only are they lazy but dumb. Ablett, Swan, Cotchin, you get the picture, do you think they got to where they are just by going what's required of them?

Do you think they needed people to hold their hand and tell them that their job is from 9 to 5 but their career is made from what they do outside of that?

If Jones thinks some players didn't try last week then he should go to Roos and request for them to be dropped. Exactly what the leadership squad at Essendon did this week with Courtenay Dempsey and his training standards.

They don't deserve to play. Not to mention that the players who have to carry them and the supporters deserve better - I'd rather see a worse list but effort than whatever that was last week.

When will the tide turn? When this lazy, overpaid, and gutless list take some responsibility and when the supporters demand better from them instead of also blaming everything else under the sun.

The players should take a bit of inspiration from Harry Truman and I don't mean the misconstrued interpretation that the blame goes through the chain of command and stops at the top...

Your decisions are your responsibility. Don't blame anyone else.

Edited April 5, 2014 by PJ_12345

[Guest]

If they think they will be the best, or elite, just by doing what's required of them then not only are they lazy but dumb. Ablett, Swan, Cotchin, you get the picture, do you think they got to where they are just by going what's required of them?

Do you think they needed people to hold their hand and tell them that their job is from 9 to 5 but their career is made from what they do outside of that?

It's interesting you raise those three players. Here is a question: how many CEO's, coaches and Presidents have those blokes played under?

Cotchin is the outlier but he is not a good example as he has played in one finals series and has yet to taste the ultimate.

Let's look at the other two. First, Gary Ablett. 12 years. Two coaches (which goes without saying since he has played at two clubs). Two CEO's. Two presidents for a total of 2 premierships from 3 grand finals.

Dane Swan: 11 years. 1 president. 2 CEO's. 2 coaches. 1 premiership from 2 grand finals (has been in the finals for the last 8 years)

Both have won Brownlows (in Gazza's case, two).

Let's compare that to our best player, Nate Jones (with no disrespect inteded).

8 years. 7 coaches including interms. 5 CEOs including 1 interim. 4 presidents. 1 finals appearance and 2 wooden spoons.

You could make the chicken or egg argument but the lack of admin. stability at Melbourne has been remarkable, and in my eyes, has contributed to us becoming the basketcase we were at the end of 2013.

Don't believe me? Does 'tankgate' ring any bells? Dan Bates? Cameron Schwab getting his job back a few days after getting sacked? Energy Watch?

My point is that if this peripheral crap gets sorted out then the players have no where to hide. The club needs a unified vision administered by competent people who won't jump at shadows.

[richyrich 44]

I think Melbourne, and its supporters have underestimated how far this team is behind compared to the rest of the AFL. Consider this, do you really expect that in Melbourne choosing the likes of Cook, Gysberts, Petterd, Newton, Maric, Morton (and every other wasted talent) that no other team would have chosen these players. Travis Johnstone, Petterd, Gysberts, Rivers, Sylvia have hardly played as stars for their new teams. And we often hear of players commenting on our training facilities and standards.

The rebuild will take time. Like it or not, we are rebuilding now. Yes, we have been doing so for 7 years thats correct, but until now we have fu**** it all up. So the rebuild starts now. 2014. Dont expect to see a premiership for 10 years. Set the culture, set the standards, lockdown the club from all thoes who drive the club to the brink of collapse and maybe, just maybe, we may see the dees towards the top of the ladder (after round 1).....

[Guest]

I think Melbourne, and its supporters have underestimated how far this team is behind compared to the rest of the AFL. Consider this, do you really expect that in Melbourne choosing the likes of Cook, Gysberts, Petterd, Newton, Maric, Morton (and every other wasted talent) that no other team would have chosen these players. Travis Johnstone, Petterd, Gysberts, Rivers, Sylvia have hardly played as stars for their new teams. And we often hear of players commenting on our training facilities and standards.

The rebuild will take time. Like it or not, we are rebuilding now. Yes, we have been doing so for 7 years thats correct, but until now we have fu**** it all up. So the rebuild starts now. 2014. Dont expect to see a premiership for 10 years. Set the culture, set the standards, lockdown the club from all thoes who drive the club to the brink of collapse and maybe, just maybe, we may see the dees towards the top of the ladder (after round 1).....

10 years is usually how long it takes for a certain regime to win a flag.

Let's look at the following:

Sydney's rebuild began in earnest the day Ron Barassi and Richard Colless went to Sydney. That was 1993. As soon as the coaching/admin. side was ironed out, it took 12 years until they jagged a premiership.

As much as it is anathema to some on this board, the Brisbane Bears/Lions rebuild started the day Rob Walls went to Brisbane (in a similar way to what Roosy is doing now). His winning percentage took an absolute hiding but thanks to his stewardship, the Bears were on the right track when he left. That playing group took 9 years to win a flag.

The Cats started in earnest the day Frank Costa, Brian Cook and Bomber Thompson took up residence. That took seven years to achieve the ultimate.

While those clubs changed coaches along the journey, there were always some consistency whether it be in regards to the CEO, coach, President or playing group.

Where is our consistent figure? Everything has been a revolving door.

If we start the rebuild in earnest and hold the line this time, it will take at least 10 years.

[Demon Dynasty 15,413]

This whole blame the culture and development really grinds my gears.

The players need to taken some serious responsibility. At the end of the day the club has gone through two boards, two presidents, two CEOs, two coaches, and numerous staff... whats the largest common demoninator? I'll give you a hint; it's the people who actually play.

Subjected to 'Melbourne conditioning' - spare me.

They get paid on average $250k, and if you're a Melbourne player, for not a lot of work.

If they think they will be the best, or elite, just by doing what's required of them then not only are they lazy but dumb. Ablett, Swan, Cotchin, you get the picture, do you think they got to where they are just by going what's required of them?

Do you think they needed people to hold their hand and tell them that their job is from 9 to 5 but their career is made from what they do outside of that?

PJ you are spot on in terms of where the buck stops. That's why i'd rather see Roos signed up for as long as possible. I don't want anymore excuses for anyone pulling on the red and blue. Sooky time is over.

10 years is usually how long it takes for a certain regime to win a flag.

That's a fair assessment i think CBF. I wouldn't expect us to go anywhere near the top 4 this side of 8 to 10 years. And that would be assuming we got everything right from here.

I like your abreviated name by the way. Reminds me of how i feel when bro asks me if i'm going to the match

Edited April 5, 2014 by Rusty Nails

[richyrich 44]

10 years is usually how long it takes for a certain regime to win a flag.

Let's look at the following:

Sydney's rebuild began in earnest the day Ron Barassi and Richard Colless went to Sydney. That was 1993. As soon as the coaching/admin. side was ironed out, it took 12 years until they jagged a premiership.

As much as it is anathema to some on this board, the Brisbane Bears/Lions rebuild started the day Rob Walls went to Brisbane (in a similar way to what Roosy is doing now). His winning percentage took an absolute hiding but thanks to his stewardship, the Bears were on the right track when he left. That playing group took 9 years to win a flag.

The Cats started in earnest the day Frank Costa, Brian Cook and Bomber Thompson took up residence. That took seven years to achieve the ultimate.

While those clubs changed coaches along the journey, there were always some consistency whether it be in regards to the CEO, coach, President or playing group.

Where is our consistent figure? Everything has been a revolving door.

If we start the rebuild in earnest and hold the line this time, it will take at least 10 years.

So basically what I said lol

[Guest]

So basically what I said lol

Just adding some statistical context to your point my good man and also backing up my point that you need consistency and competency off the field.