The indication as to whether we're improving consistently as a team is when the following happens.

Matt Jones

McKenzie

Byrnes

Bail

Nicholson

Jetta

Pederson

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Evans

No more than two of the above will ever be in the best 22. Most will either be playing at Casey or not on the list at all.

The fact that these players are continuing to get games is having a direct impact on game day. I'm not going to bang on about the past.

We know why they're still getting games. We have nobody else.

But significant improvement as a side won't come until we add greater talent to the list and when these players are no longer regulars in our side. They are absolutely not AFL standard players and they're extremely limited in their abilities.

I still think we'll improve this year thanks to the injection of mids we've had plus Paul Roos and the new coaches. However, the real improvement will come hopefully over the next two or three years with what will be 'hopefully' some more smart trading and good pickups

in future drafts. I believe we've got the recruiting department right now. Roos understands the importance of developing and nurturing first year players. Guys like Salem, who off the back of a limited pre-season isn't getting a gig yet. Something we would not have seen in years gone by with a number 9 draft pick.

I'm sure others share this view.

Byrnes officially lost me in the Gold Coast game last year when he kicked 1.5 in a 13 point loss. I wonder what the final score would've been had he kicked 3.2 or 4.1?

The indication as to whether we're improving consistently as a team is when the following happens.

Matt Jones

McKenzie

Byrnes

Bail

Nicholson

Jetta

Pederson

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Evans

No more than two of the above will ever be in the best 22. Most will either be playing at Casey or not on the list at all.

The fact that these players are continuing to get games is having a direct impact on game day. I'm not going to bang on about the past.

We know why they're still getting games. We have nobody else.

But significant improvement as a side won't come until we add greater talent to the list and when these players are no longer regulars in our side. They are absolutely not AFL standard players and they're extremely limited in their abilities.

I still think we'll improve this year thanks to the injection of mids we've had plus Paul Roos and the new coaches. However, the real improvement will come hopefully over the next two or three years with what will be 'hopefully' some more smart trading and good pickups

in future drafts. I believe we've got the recruiting department right now. Roos understands the importance of developing and nurturing first year players. Guys like Salem, who off the back of a limited pre-season isn't getting a gig yet. Something we would not have seen in years gone by with a number 9 draft pick.

I'm sure others share this view.

Fitzy's a bit stiff to be on that list, totally agree on the others.

Byrnes officially lost me in the Gold Coast game last year when he kicked 1.5 in a 13 point loss. I wonder what the final score would've been had he kicked 3.2 or 4.1?

In that case.....Cloke, Reivolt(rich), Richardson, Fev, Hawkins, Higgins, all who have missed sitters from 20 out would have lost you....Don't let your frustration blind you.

Byrnes officially lost me in the Gold Coast game last year when he kicked 1.5 in a 13 point loss. I wonder what the final score would've been had he kicked 3.2 or 4.1?

Yeah, we would have made finals...

The indication as to whether we're improving consistently as a team is when the following happens.

Matt Jones

McKenzie

Byrnes

Bail

Nicholson

Jetta

Pederson

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Evans

No more than two of the above will ever be in the best 22. Most will either be playing at Casey or not on the list at all.

The fact that these players are continuing to get games is having a direct impact on game day. I'm not going to bang on about the past.

We know why they're still getting games. We have nobody else.

But significant improvement as a side won't come until we add greater talent to the list and when these players are no longer regulars in our side. They are absolutely not AFL standard players and they're extremely limited in their abilities.

I still think we'll improve this year thanks to the injection of mids we've had plus Paul Roos and the new coaches. However, the real improvement will come hopefully over the next two or three years with what will be 'hopefully' some more smart trading and good pickups

in future drafts. I believe we've got the recruiting department right now. Roos understands the importance of developing and nurturing first year players. Guys like Salem, who off the back of a limited pre-season isn't getting a gig yet. Something we would not have seen in years gone by with a number 9 draft pick.

I'm sure others share this view.

They are not the only ones struggling to hit targets.

I know what your point is - we need a better skilled team to implement the game plan Roos wants to implement.

That may mean a few of the above make way, improve, and/or play within their limitations.

I have been saying it for years and am happy to be proven wrong but we should trade Watts while he still has some sort of currency. Hid had 5 years and the longer this charade goes on the more we lose from it. He is not cut out for it.

What currency?

We are (re)building his career as a midfielder because he can't find his niche.

What team is going to offer anything of value for someone who is 'not cut out for it?'

I didn't see the game, but from the press conference, the vibe I got from roos was he wanted to put his game style and list up against the best team in the comp, one on one to see how it stood up. I can't imagine him panicking over a scratch match, putting numbers behind the ball so maybe we get a "respectable" 50 point loss instead. What would he learn then?

I will be as measured on this as I can.

Saturday was clearly a setback. Not so much a catastrophic, coach killing, club dismantling loss (clearly that is ludicrous as it is NAB Cup and Roos' third practice game in charge) but it must give the team's confidence a significant knock. How the club reacts is the key thing now. How Roosy reacts is also key.

We don't want to get into making players cry or disenfranchising leadership groups again or anything insane like that. However, and I think PR will be smart enough to know this, it should be intimated that you don't get beaten like that. There need be no pronouncements in the media. There should be no ear drum melting sprays.

However, we don't want to get back into the opposite approach that has been taken prior: she'll be apples and if we just keep turning up, our time will come.
Up till now, PR has had a dream run as a coach (up until his time in Sydney). When he took over the Swans, the basic elements were there. Unfortunately, they just weren't performing. Roos took them from being good but underperforming to great. This would have been the first time in his career that he would have been in charge of a team that was just generally bad and not out of form (like when he coached the Swans against us in 2010). It will be interesting to see what happens.

I didn't get to see the game as I was at a wedding. I would like to know what happened in regards to the loss. Was it CBF disease (not my disease of talking bollocks!)? The blokes got ahead of themselves? The trip from Darwin took it out of them? The game plan didn't work?

I think the difference between our best and worst footy is still huge.

And we are trying to play a new game style based on skill execution and hard and bold running into space - it's going to fail fairly catastrophically when it does fail.

The comical errors against Geelong foreshadowed the Hawthorn thumping; if we got the footy and gave it back we were punished heavily. What happens when you don't get the footy? And on the few times you do get the footy - you give it back?

This season is still going to contain some terrible footy.

I am hopeful that the players will settle over the course of the season and be more comfortable and confident about their role and how to play this gamplan within their limitations.

I didn't see the game, but from the press conference, the vibe I got from roos was he wanted to put his game style and list up against the best team in the comp, one on one to see how it stood up. I can't imagine him panicking over a scratch match, putting numbers behind the ball so maybe we get a "respectable" 50 point loss instead. What would he learn then?

That's a good point. I'm sure there'll be times this year in the H&A when Roos coaches to restrict blow-outs but it would have had little merit to do it on the weekend. The desired outcome is for the brand of footy he's trying to instil becomes robust and well executed. I believe the weekends hammering will prove more beneficial to the team rather than disillusioning.

It just reaffirms the size of the void.

The indication as to whether we're improving consistently as a team is when the following happens.

Matt Jones

McKenzie

Byrnes

Bail

Nicholson

Jetta

Pederson

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Evans

No more than two of the above will ever be in the best 22. Most will either be playing at Casey or not on the list at all.

The fact that these players are continuing to get games is having a direct impact on game day. I'm not going to bang on about the past.

We know why they're still getting games. We have nobody else.

But significant improvement as a side won't come until we add greater talent to the list and when these players are no longer regulars in our side. They are absolutely not AFL standard players and they're extremely limited in their abilities.

I still think we'll improve this year thanks to the injection of mids we've had plus Paul Roos and the new coaches. However, the real improvement will come hopefully over the next two or three years with what will be 'hopefully' some more smart trading and good pickups

in future drafts. I believe we've got the recruiting department right now. Roos understands the importance of developing and nurturing first year players. Guys like Salem, who off the back of a limited pre-season isn't getting a gig yet. Something we would not have seen in years gone by with a number 9 draft pick.

I'm sure others share this view.

pretty harsh on Fitzy and Evans i reckon they show abit, the others i can't see getting any better than what they are/

They are not the only ones struggling to hit targets.

I know what your point is - we need a better skilled team to implement the game plan Roos wants to implement.

That may mean a few of the above make way, improve, and/or play within their limitations.

All players will miss targets from time to time, but that list I provided, in my eyes, consists of players

who consistently make errors and are not up to standard. Their skills will not improve enough. They will and

absolutely need to be pushed out of our starting lineup.

The point is that due to a number of reasons, we have wasted half a dozen more top end draft picks who really

should be keeping those I mentioned out of the side.

Morton, Gysberts, Cook, Bate etc etc.

Players picked at the too end of the draft who - for a number of reasons - have all been moved on but should be

some of our best and most influential players by now.

Hawthorn are the prime example of a group of highly skilled and hard inside ball winning players. We can get there also.

But not when we have guys like the ones I mentioned playing in our side

It's going to take great recruiting and trading. Great development and nurturing. And great coaching and communication.

2- 3 years.

pretty harsh on Fitzy and Evans i reckon they show abit, the others i can't see getting any better than what they are/

Fitzpatrick is the perfect example of a speculative 'KPP lower end of the draft' pick.

He cannot kick. He isn't a fantastic mark for a bloke of his size.

I'm not being harsh. I'm being realistic. He wouldn't be getting a game if we had Hogan, Dawes and Clark playing.

He is not a forward.

He is what the industry would term an 'athletic tall who has elite speed and agility for a guy of his size.'

He ain't a natural ruckman or forward. He's not a natural footballer. He has a few athletic attributes and does the occasional

freakish thing.

The indication as to whether we're improving consistently as a team is when the following happens.

Matt Jones

McKenzie

Byrnes

Bail

Nicholson

Jetta

Pederson

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Evans

No more than two of the above will ever be in the best 22. Most will either be playing at Casey or not on the list at all.

The fact that these players are continuing to get games is having a direct impact on game day. I'm not going to bang on about the past.

We know why they're still getting games. We have nobody else.

But significant improvement as a side won't come until we add greater talent to the list and when these players are no longer regulars in our side. They are absolutely not AFL standard players and they're extremely limited in their abilities.

I still think we'll improve this year thanks to the injection of mids we've had plus Paul Roos and the new coaches. However, the real improvement will come hopefully over the next two or three years with what will be 'hopefully' some more smart trading and good pickups

in future drafts. I believe we've got the recruiting department right now. Roos understands the importance of developing and nurturing first year players. Guys like Salem, who off the back of a limited pre-season isn't getting a gig yet. Something we would not have seen in years gone by with a number 9 draft pick.

I'm sure others share this view.

I disagree. I don't rate most of those players but I think you can win games with 4 or 5 of them in the team. I'm pretty sure Spencer and McKenzie are best 22 right now because we've seen so little from the other rucks or midfield depth.

I think a lot of our problems stem from depth of quality players who beat their opponent not from depth of guys who can play a role. Take the backline - Dunn, McDonald, Grimes, Terlich all decent enough footballers who can contribute to winning games. But Frawley and Garland are the only 2 who I trust to really impact most weeks. Without Garland to go with Frawley we start seeing more cracks appearing.

Same in the midfield - Cross, Tyson, Vince, N Jones, Viney, they can all have claims as legitimate AFL midfielders. But where's the difference making players?

The other overriding problem is a lack of belief and a lack of playing and training time together. Without that system and confidence as soon as you start getting thrashed it's hard to get in games.

Pretty much I think we can win games with a bunch of really VFL players getting games. Hawthorn have had big wins with Kyle Cheney and a few others in the team over the years as an example. Our top end isn't good enough, our mid level players who we think are good only perform at an average level. That's just as much as a problem.

Fitzpatrick is the perfect example of a speculative 'KPP lower end of the draft' pick.

He cannot kick. He isn't a fantastic mark for a bloke of his size.

I'm not being harsh. I'm being realistic. He wouldn't be getting a game if we had Hogan, Dawes and Clark playing.

He is not a forward.

He is what the industry would term an 'athletic tall who has elite speed and agility for a guy of his size.'

He ain't a natural ruckman or forward. He's not a natural footballer. He has a few athletic attributes and does the occasional

freakish thing.

I agree with the idea these blokes should be depth and wouldn't be in a stronger best 22 but i reckon fitzy and Evans could improve alot still

Fitzpatrick is the perfect example of a speculative 'KPP lower end of the draft' pick.

He cannot kick. He isn't a fantastic mark for a bloke of his size.

He's not a natural footballer. He has a few athletic attributes and does the occasional

freakish thing.

He was a very disappointing forward against the Hawks.

He's the kind of guy that can be dangerous against weak opposition, or a good foil for a couple of power forwards as the third stringer, but as the go-to-man I think he'll struggle, certainly against good opposition.

I disagree. I don't rate most of those players but I think you can win games with 4 or 5 of them in the team. I'm pretty sure Spencer and McKenzie are best 22 right now because we've seen so little from the other rucks or midfield depth.

I think a lot of our problems stem from depth of quality players who beat their opponent not from depth of guys who can play a role. Take the backline - Dunn, McDonald, Grimes, Terlich all decent enough footballers who can contribute to winning games. But Frawley and Garland are the only 2 who I trust to really impact most weeks. Without Garland to go with Frawley we start seeing more cracks appearing.

Same in the midfield - Cross, Tyson, Vince, N Jones, Viney, they can all have claims as legitimate AFL midfielders. But where's the difference making players?

The other overriding problem is a lack of belief and a lack of playing and training time together. Without that system and confidence as soon as you start getting thrashed it's hard to get in games.

Pretty much I think we can win games with a bunch of really VFL players getting games. Hawthorn have had big wins with Kyle Cheney and a few others in the team over the years as an example. Our top end isn't good enough, our mid level players who we think are good only perform at an average level. That's just as much as a problem.

We've seen so little from the other ruckmen because they've been injured... Gawn would be playing ahead of Spencer if he was fit. Same with Jamar. McKenzie wouldn't be getting a game for Hawthorn, Freo, Geelong etc etc.

None of this is personal. So don't take it that way. I've never said we can't win games with them in the side. I don't understand what you disagree with.

If we want to see sustained, significant and positive improvement of our team, list, gameplan and quality of football then we need to have 22 players who are capable of contributing in every way. You cannot achieve any of that with 6 + of your starting 22 not being able to get games at other clubs.

I'm all for role players. Everybody bangs on about this. However, if you have a player who can play his role and then some, it makes sense to replace the player who can only 'play their role'. For example. If one day, Salem comes in and plays a defensive/negating role on an opposition player just as well as someone like McKenzie, but also uses his exquisite kicking skills to setup play a number of times, (something McKenzie will never be able to do), what will happen? Obviously Salem will take his spot, and our side will improve because of it.

Master, we must over time, trade for more quality players and make sure we get our early draft picks bang on and develop them the right way for us to have any chance of serious and significant improvement as a club. All I've done is state the bleeding obvious. I don't know what you're disagreeing with?

Edited March 10, 201411 yr by stevethemanjordan

The indication as to whether we're improving consistently as a team is when the following happens.

Matt Jones

McKenzie

Byrnes

Bail

Nicholson

Jetta

Pederson

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Evans

No more than two of the above will ever be in the best 22. Most will either be playing at Casey or not on the list at all.

The fact that these players are continuing to get games is having a direct impact on game day. I'm not going to bang on about the past.

We know why they're still getting games. We have nobody else.

But significant improvement as a side won't come until we add greater talent to the list and when these players are no longer regulars in our side. They are absolutely not AFL standard players and they're extremely limited in their abilities.

I still think we'll improve this year thanks to the injection of mids we've had plus Paul Roos and the new coaches. However, the real improvement will come hopefully over the next two or three years with what will be 'hopefully' some more smart trading and good pickups

in future drafts. I believe we've got the recruiting department right now. Roos understands the importance of developing and nurturing first year players. Guys like Salem, who off the back of a limited pre-season isn't getting a gig yet. Something we would not have seen in years gone by with a number 9 draft pick.

I'm sure others share this view.

YOU MISSED ONE ...STRAUSS!

we got taken apart by the hawks, a premiership side, did we really think we could win it, most people suggest we may win 6 this year, I think that is about right, at the moment I am less than impressed with Watts, Toumpas, Viney, Matt Jones, Pedo and Mackenzie, Viney needs time in the twos, still a kid as is toumpas, Jones disposal is questionable, Pedo is highly questionable, read ineffective and Mackenzie a tagger at best, god bless

huh?

I think your saying that he didn't do as well as others?

i think he had more talent than most, but wasn't handled right in the first place. nor was Morton, or some others, compounded by our Poor culture & lacking leaders. & inferior gamestyles.

I've always been harping on about being tough & rugged & playing contested footy fort at least 10 years now.

Finally we have a coach who agrees with this method, & we could have really done with a coach like Roos, or like Mark Thompson or Clarko since 2007. Someone who'll get an honest games play from the players gamestyle wise.

So I'm saying Bennell has the skills to use in todays game, as long as he was taught at first to adapt in the reserves to a more physical gamestyle, including tackling & defending. IMO, the finely built players need More time in the seconds, to grow their bodies, & to instill a tough approach in their attitudes.

We've been really ordinary at development over the last 10 + years.

i liked the way he played, he was very clean with the ball and had the skills for AFL. I wondered why he wasn't selected a number of times and let's be honest it's not easy playing the half forward role in a very bad team, much easier to be a defender some what. I think Bennel was quite similar to where Toumpas is now. I think we need to put Toumpas on the half back line or back pocket and get him out of that half forward role which hasn't work for similar players like Watts, Bennell and Tapscott. It's a very tough position in a bad team.

In that case.....Cloke, Reivolt(rich), Richardson, Fev, Hawkins, Higgins, all who have missed sitters from 20 out would have lost you....Don't let your frustration blind you.

I don't think he is blinded at all.

1.5 for an experienced professional from Geeong, who's experience playing in grand finals was going to drive the boys to success....

Would have lost me too if I saw the game.

Fitzpatrick is the perfect example of a speculative 'KPP lower end of the draft' pick.

He cannot kick. He isn't a fantastic mark for a bloke of his size.

I'm not being harsh. I'm being realistic. He wouldn't be getting a game if we had Hogan, Dawes and Clark playing.

He is not a forward.

He is what the industry would term an 'athletic tall who has elite speed and agility for a guy of his size.'

He ain't a natural ruckman or forward. He's not a natural footballer. He has a few athletic attributes and does the occasional

freakish thing.

Fitzpatrick is the perfect example. The only reason why he was given opportunity last year was because we had no one else. The only way it will work for Fitzpatrick is if he turns into a Justin Kosintsckhe type, because he isn't a natural footballer.

For example, let's compare Jesse Hogan to Jack Fitzpatrick.

One is a natural footballer with a natural kicking style, agile, strong hands and a thinking footballer.. Fitzpatrick is a bulldozing forward who is uncoordinated and when we need him to kick that goal for us to get into the Grand Final in the year 201...? Guess what, it will probably go out on the full off the side of his boot.

Fitzpatrick is the perfect example. The only reason why he was given opportunity last year was because we had no one else. The only way it will work for Fitzpatrick is if he turns into a Justin Kosintsckhe type, because he isn't a natural footballer.

For example, let's compare Jesse Hogan to Jack Fitzpatrick.

One is a natural footballer with a natural kicking style, agile, strong hands and a thinking footballer.. Fitzpatrick is a bulldozing forward who is uncoordinated and when we need him to kick that goal for us to get into the Grand Final in the year 201...? Guess what, it will probably go out on the full off the side of his boot.

I think you will find he got his chance last year because of some really good VFL form, kicking multiple goals and presenting well several games in a row, infact i thought he was stiff not to get a run sooner than he did, but i agree that if everyone is fit he isn't in the best 22

pretty harsh on Fitzy and Evans i reckon they show abit, the others i can't see getting any better than what they are/

Agree. And I think Spencer while not the most accomplished ruckman going around gives great commitment and contests really well.