I suppose the positive is we now have a video of our new gameplan getting taken apart by a better side, will be good for the team to see what good sides are going to try and do and be able to pre empt a little bit rather than wait for them to kick a couple of goals and then slow them down

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced.

It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced.

It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

Judge them at the end of their careers, i am certain at different stages one will be a mile ahead of the other, right now Toumpas is a Melbourne player, he's had a fantastic pre season but it's clear he has aspects of his game to work on as would every other player in the AFL

I don't think anyone is carried away or has said some of the usual short-sighted comments we see on these forums after bad losses.

All that has been said was that it was a really poor performance, which it clearly was.

Of course as a whole the pre-season has been positive and we've made some really good gains. But this thread is about yesterday's game - anyone that went could only describe it as a pretty dismal performance and it wouldn't be accurate to describe it as anything but that. I'm sure for those that didn't go, they would want an honest appraisal of yesterday's game.

The good news is that in Roos we have a coach who will remain positive and be able to get the players to move on with a positive mindset. On the whole over the pre-season we have made some significant strides forward with a new game plan. Yesterday it wasn't about the game plan being exposed by Hawthorn, it was simply a matter of us not winning enough footy and not working hard enough (and simply being overwhelmed by a far superior opposition) - no game plan can work without those two critical elements.

Judge them at the end of their careers

Yes, I will.

Does that mean we can't have opinions now, notwithstanding the vagaries this early on ?

Yes, I will.

Does that mean we can't have opinions now, notwithstanding the vagaries this early on ?

Of course you can, but it's a little pointless i mean everyone saying how soft Jack Watts is, then what if he comes out and get the 3 votes in round 1 against the saints, so many ups and downs

Of course you can, but it's a little pointless

Then most things on here are pointless.

This sums it up perfectly, our only 2 "best" players yesterday are 2 players that have only just joined our club and haven't been apart of the rabble of the past 7 years.

It's gonna take time for the rest to catch up.

HAWTHORN 3.5 9.8 16.13 21.16 (142)

MELBOURNE 2.2 2.3 3.5 4.8 (32)

Goals

Hawthorn: J Roughead 6, I Smith 2, J Gibson 2, W Langford 2, L Shiels, B McEvoy, P Puopolo, J Simpkin, J Gunston, L Hodge, B Hill, M Suckling, L Breust

Melbourne: J Howe 2, S Byrnes, J Spencer

Best

Hawthorn: S Mitchell, J Roughead, J Lewis, J Gibson, B Hill, L Shiels, J Simpkin

Melbourne: B Vince, D Tyson

Injuries

Hawthorn: B Stratton (hamstring)

Melbourne: J Frawley (heavy knock)

Umpires: M Nicholls, R Findlay, S Jeffery, N Foot

Reports: nil.

I reckon Watts should play as a permanent forward against St Kilda. Remember he did kick 4.0 goals in rd 23 last year and a repeat of that performance may be the difference between a win and a loss. Apart from Howe I can't see anyone kicking close to 3-4 goals. Fitzpatrick seems to be struggling at the moment.

I've come to the conclusion that we won't beat them with our serious lack of options inside 50.

This sums it up perfectly, our only 2 "best" players yesterday are 2 players that have only just joined our club and haven't been apart of the rabble of the past 7 years.

It's gonna take time for the rest to catch up.

HAWTHORN 3.5 9.8 16.13 21.16 (142)

MELBOURNE 2.2 2.3 3.5 4.8 (32)

Goals

Hawthorn: J Roughead 6, I Smith 2, J Gibson 2, W Langford 2, L Shiels, B McEvoy, P Puopolo, J Simpkin, J Gunston, L Hodge, B Hill, M Suckling, L Breust

Melbourne: J Howe 2, S Byrnes, J Spencer

Best

Hawthorn: S Mitchell, J Roughead, J Lewis, J Gibson, B Hill, L Shiels, J Simpkin

Melbourne: B Vince, D Tyson

Injuries

Hawthorn: B Stratton (hamstring)

Melbourne: J Frawley (heavy knock)

Umpires: M Nicholls, R Findlay, S Jeffery, N Foot

Reports: nil.

I liked Tyson's game yesterday, but most seemed to dismiss it.

I reckon Watts should play as a permanent forward against St Kilda. Remember he did kick 4.0 goals in rd 23 last year and a repeat of that performance may be the difference between a win and a loss. Apart from Howe I can't see anyone kicking close to 3-4 goals. Fitzpatrick seems to be struggling at the moment.

I've come to the conclusion that we won't beat them with our serious lack of options inside 50.

they don't have a huge amount of options either and our backline is alot more solid than their's plus we should beat them out of the middle, but i agree Watts up forward would be a good move, we have plenty of mids now to cover him

Did anyone actually stay for the Casey game? Would love to know how Salem and rest of the young kids went.

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced.

It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

I think it's time we take note of the lesson of Watts and apply it to Toumpas. Ie. it's time for Jimmy to play a stretch of VFL and become and inside and out VFL midfielder who wins contested ball, tackles etc. He did a few nice things but also a lot of running up and down on the spot unable to get in to the game (as most forwards can't in a team like the one yesterday). It's going to suck seeing Bail and Byrnes play over Toumpas when they butcher the ball but come the second half of the year Toumpas will be much better for it.

Watts. I'm at a loss with him. I just don't understand where his head is at. He picked up the ball and got slammed in tackles a few times yesterday. Yet he never seems to respond with what I think is the natural response and the one I always have playing footy. Ie. If I get caught and bumped around a bit I start going harder and more direct. I'm a rubbish footballer playing in the reserves but at least when things aren't working I try and have a dip.

I think it's time we take note of the lesson of Watts and apply it to Toumpas. Ie. it's time for Jimmy to play a stretch of VFL and become and inside and out VFL midfielder who wins contested ball, tackles etc. He did a few nice things but also a lot of running up and down on the spot unable to get in to the game (as most forwards can't in a team like the one yesterday). It's going to suck seeing Bail and Byrnes play over Toumpas when they butcher the ball but come the second half of the year Toumpas will be much better for it.

Watts. I'm at a loss with him. I just don't understand where his head is at. He picked up the ball and got slammed in tackles a few times yesterday. Yet he never seems to respond with what I think is the natural response and the one I always have playing footy. Ie. If I get caught and bumped around a bit I start going harder and more direct. I'm a rubbish footballer playing in the reserves but at least when things aren't working I try and have a dip.

Dude, he has spent a good amount of time playing SANFL already. He will be fine, he is still very raw and is in his second season of AFL.

I don;t mind a reality check. We got to see exactly what we are doing wrong and how far we have to improve to play with the big boys. I'd rather know now and assume the coaches were taking notes than not know and be shocked when we get done like that during the season.

Totally agree with you, lets hope the boys get together at training on Monday and make a pact to not let a blow out like that happen again in 2014.

Did anyone actually stay for the Casey game? Would love to know how Salem and rest of the young kids went.

try here

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced.

It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

The funny thing is that Port would have taken Jimmy if they had the pick and I suspect, would have swapped him on draft night for Wines, in the blink of an eye.

You are just plain WRONG. Do you even watch the games? Toumpas running one way is blatant bull___t. Get the hard ball son! That is a job any hack can do. Give me skill and class like Toump's any day. His kicking is sublime. look how many of us envy the Hawks disposal skills, and you wanted to draft another donkey to go fetch when you can get them anywhere. How would you have coped with getting your head knocked off? His form against the Tiges was good in the second half. Apart from 1 glaringly bad kick across goal in the Geelong game, tell me where he was poor. Comparisons to Ollie are for losers. Both kids had no say in where they ended up. Ollie looked like death warmed up on Draft night whereas Jimmy was ecstatic to come to our career destroying club. Look at the difference in development of our young guys and look at what Hinkley and Kochie are doing! Get over it. Wines is at Pt Adelaide and Toump is here. I think I know where I would have preferred to be drafted to. Typing away at a keyboard and sending your venom is not palatable to any of us. Give it a rest man. If you want to "see something, anything" try opening your eyes.

Happy to open my eyes, if you would take your blinkers of! FWIW for just as many ( a dwindling number ) of Staunch Toumpas advocates there are many on both this and other forums, Demonolgy for example who agree with my opinion. Remember this is a supporter forum where debate is and should be the order of the day. You have you Opinion and I have mine. Good luck! Having played and coached in footy doesn't make my opinion any better than yours, but in reality I put my experience where my mouth is and proclaim what I see as my reality.Take it or leave it, hope Toumpas can turn it around and become a very good player but at the moment his weaknesses are being glaringly exposed on the big stage. Yes I have seen some SOME good things , but nowhere near enough to justify his selection. Time for an extended run at Casey to learn both inside and outside footy skills!

The funny thing is that Port would have taken Jimmy if they had the pick and I suspect, would have swapped him on draft night for Wines, in the blink of an eye.

Someone givem a ring and see if they're still up for it

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced.

It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

Watts- great skills, great pace, makes good decisions with ball in hand, weak as Pi$$.

We aren't the only ones.

Ollie Wines stood out in the nationals, as Sheedy said, hindsight is a beautiful thing - GWS are obviously kicking themselves as well.

Wines was a clear number 1 pick for mine.. But everyone wants X factor.

Seem to remember Sheedy was a great fan of Grgic as well.

So it goes.

If Roos had been coach, Toumpas would still be in the twos, possibly getting a gig late 2014, same as Salem probably won't get a game til 2015 at best. Roos in yesterdays presser made a point of saying in the past players were getting games when they shouldn't; not any more.

We just need to get over Wines, he is a port player until at least 2017 now

The funny thing is that Port would have taken Jimmy if they had the pick and I suspect, would have swapped him on draft night for Wines, in the blink of an eye.

You're dressing up speculation as fact. You may be right about the SA connection, but I simply don't know.

Your guesswork may or may not be correct, although I appreciate the "educated" aspect to it.

We just need to get over Wines, he is a port player until at least 2017 now

Who's not "over" it ?

Who's not "over" it ?

The posters who are still banging on about how we have made a huge error taking Toumpas, the dogs said they'd take him at 5 if we passed on him, he was clearly more highly rated