Punters Club fiasco

[The Chazz 4,077]

billy there would be no Horse Racing without money being bet on the outcome.

As you say it is part of the rules & has been since day 1

That's my point WYL, you are saying the sport won't last if you take it away, but as I said, it'd be like taking the goal posts away from a footy field. Neither sport would survive if you changed the rules like that.

Is it wrong that part of the rules is that people have to bet? No doubt the moral police will think so, but that doesn't mean they are right. There's expectations of every sport that I don't always agree with - if I dislike it so much I don't watch it.

I wouldn't be stopping with just betting on race/match - take away any form of gambling and I think you'd find a lot of clubs wouldn't survive, so the greater gambling "umbrella" would have a massive impact on more than just horse racing.

Because it is true….and it isn't a sport.

…and gambling in AFL is going to be a much bigger problem than drugs although there is a link between the 2. Courting the gambling industry is the biggest mistake the game has made.

Rjay, I'm not saying it's not true (about the gambling), but as we all agree, it's an expectation, somewhat a rule, that horse racing involves and survives by people betting on it. To take a (hypothetical) drastic action by removing it is of course going to see the sport crumble, but I'm not sure what people would hope to achieve by doing so?

And again, the "is it a sport?" argumet is painful. The true (google) definition of "sport" if you want to get technical is;

"an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."

Technically, I can't see how it isn't a sport.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Would you take an interest in Horse Racing if all betting was outlawed tomorrow?

I am struggling to understand your argument WYL. None of us are saying that gambling isn't a major part of horse racing.

In answer to the question above, I would absolutely be interested in it. There has been many times that I've been to the beach without going swimming, many others do it too.

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

The Racing industry would not survive without gambling. QED.

If there was no gambling involved in AFL 100,000 would still roll up to the GF wearing team colours.

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

I am struggling to understand your argument WYL. None of us are saying that gambling isn't a major part of horse racing.

In answer to the question above, I would absolutely be interested in it. There has been many times that I've been to the beach without going swimming, many others do it too.

You would be there with KB and a few others.

Hey if you enjoy Horse Racing great, but it is a sport of winning money. Always has been.

The jockeys are starved. The horse are put down if injured.

Oliver able to ride the Melbourne Cup this year!!

I mean really...

[The Chazz 4,077]

The Racing industry would not survive without gambling. QED.

If there was no gambling involved in AFL 100,000 would still roll up to the GF wearing team colours.

We (the horse racing followers) understand that WYL. We haven't said otherwise. You are making a point that no-one will disagree with.

How about we take away all the poker machine licences from every single Australian Rules club, be it at a national level or grassroots level. How many clubs would we lose?

Yes, the game will survive, but there would be a number of players (ie clubs) that wouldn't. And it's not just Aussie Rules - how would the NRL look with no poker machine licences?

Happy for you to stop betting in horse racing, but to be fair in the scenario, you be happy with me taking away poker machine licences.

[binman 43,762]

Would you take an interest in Horse Racing if all betting was outlawed tomorrow?

You are not making any sense WYL. What has this got to do with whether racing is a sport? This logic only works if you define sport as something that does not require gambling to survive. Which of course isn't a definition of sport. It might be yours but the reason why we have dictionaries is so there is some common understanding of what things mean eg sport. This is kind of useful. Imagine if we all had our own definition of stop or give way.

[daisycutter 29,738]

some people say that any pastime carried out whilst sitting down can't be a sport

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

We (the horse racing followers) understand that WYL. We haven't said otherwise. You are making a point that no-one will disagree with.

How about we take away all the poker machine licences from every single Australian Rules club, be it at a national level or grassroots level. How many clubs would we lose?

Yes, the game will survive, but there would be a number of players (ie clubs) that wouldn't. And it's not just Aussie Rules - how would the NRL look with no poker machine licences?

Happy for you to stop betting in horse racing, but to be fair in the scenario, you be happy with me taking away poker machine licences.

I would love it if all poker machines were removed from earth billy. alternatives would be found to raise revenue.

My dislike of Horse Racing is mainly because $$$ and gambling is THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE of the activity.

Take it away and there will be no racing.

Footy can survive on its own if it chooses.

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

You are not making any sense WYL. What has this got to do with whether racing is a sport? This logic only works if you define sport as something that does not require gambling to survive. Which of course isn't a definition of sport. It might be yours but the reason why we have dictionaries is so there is some common understanding of what things mean eg sport. This is kind of useful. Imagine if we all had our own definition of stop or give way.

i am not making sense to you because you do not like reading it.

Is Gambling & money the PRIMARY REASON that horse racing exists?

Yes or No.....

[The Chazz 4,077]

i am not making sense to you because you do not like reading it.

Is Gambling & money the PRIMARY REASON that horse racing exists?

Yes or No.....

You can't put gambling & money under the same banner WYL. They are two seperate topics.

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

You can't put gambling & money under the same banner WYL. They are two seperate topics.

Oh please.

The prime reason horse racing exists is to bet money on who wins. That is gambling.

[binman 43,762]

i am not making sense to you because you do not like reading it.

Is Gambling & money the PRIMARY REASON that horse racing exists?

Yes or No.....

Sorry have i missed something. You were prosecuting an argument that horse racing is not a sport, not that gambling & money is the PRIMARY REASON that horse racing exists.

In any case to answer your question, gambling & money is the primary reason the horse racing industry is so large (indeed it is one of Australia's biggest industries).

Is gambling and money the primary reason horse racing exists? No. Humans have been racing horses against each other for thousands of years and long before organised gambling was an element. Te primary reason it exists is humans's innate desire to compete with each other (the driver of all sports). Horse racing provides this forum for horse owners and always has. Gambling is the by product of this desire to compete against another person.

Would the horse racing industry exist without gambling? No not not in its current form. Would horse racing. Yes.

Edited December 13, 2013 by binman

[old55 23,687]

Would the horse racing industry exist without gambling? No not not in its current form. Would horse racing. Yes.

Like. There are owners who don't punt. Probably trainers and jockeys too.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Oh please.

The prime reason horse racing exists is to bet money on who wins. That is gambling.

I know a number of racing stables that try and have the fastest horse because of the prizemoney. They aren't punting stables, and would continue to race horses should betting be banned.

The issue to this is of course that the lucrative prizemoney on offer is partially funded through betting turnover. Decrease the size of the prizemoney, and you will find that (eventually) the sport will change its priorities (which would probably be closer to why the sport was invented in the first place!).

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

Sorry have i missed something. You were prosecuting an argument that horse racing is not a sport, not that gambling & money is the PRIMARY REASON that horse racing exists.

In any case to answer your question, gambling & money is the primary reason the horse racing industry is so large (indeed it is one of Australia's biggest industries).

Is gambling and money the primary reason horse racing exists? No. Humans have been racing horses against each other for thousands of years and long before organised gambling was an element. Te primary reason it exists is humans's innate desire to compete with each other (the driver of all sports). Horse racing provides this forum for horse owners and always has. Gambling is the by product of this desire to compete against another person.

Would the horse racing industry exist without gambling? No not not in its current form. Would horse racing. Yes.

We must disagree. I do not consider Horse Racing a Sport because its primary function is based on Gambling $$$. Take Gambling out of the equation and it would not exist.

Take Gambling out of AFL and it is still a Sport loved by millions.

[The Chazz 4,077]

We must disagree. I do not consider Horse Racing a Sport because its primary function is based on Gambling $$$. Take Gambling out of the equation and it would not exist.

Take Gambling out of AFL and it is still a Sport loved by millions.

You simply cannot use this line to prove your point with any certainty.

[Redleg 41,430]

Oh please.

The prime reason horse racing exists is to bet money on who wins. That is gambling.

I am fairly heavily involved in horse racing and haven't gambled in 15 years. I hate the casino. I don't play cards. No horse bet for 15 years.

I enjoy my horse racing, more so when I race or breed a winner.

Also when I visit my mares and foals I really relax and enjoy myself which is a great break from the stress of working and supporting the MFC.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Redleg

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

I am fairly heavily involved in horse racing and haven't gambled in 15 years. I hate the casino. I don't play cards. No horse bet for 15 years.

I enjoy my horse racing, more so when I race or breed a winner.

Also when I visit my mares and foals I really relax and enjoy myself which is a great break from the stress of working and supporting the MFC.

glad you enjoy it Red. But you would be in the minority imo

[binman 43,762]

We must disagree. I do not consider Horse Racing a Sport because its primary function is based on Gambling $$$. Take Gambling out of the equation and it would not exist.

Take Gambling out of AFL and it is still a Sport loved by millions.

Well obviously we are going around in circles. As i have said that is not how a sport is defined, never has been, never will be. I understand you don't like it and fair enough but it is simply impossible to maintain that horse racing is not a sport.

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

You simply cannot use this line to prove your point with any certainty.

Yes i can.

The industry would be finished within months.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Yes i can.

The industry would be finished within months.

Ask Lloyd Williams if he would still invest millions in to the industry if they took away wagering. I'm absolutely sure he'd still search the planet for the horse that can win a race over 3200m, especially if he got to keep the gold cup presented at the end of the race.

Further to that, there are many that view that 3-handled gold cup in the same regards as those do for that silver cup given out on the MCG in late September.

Edited December 13, 2013 by billy2803

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

Ask Lloyd Williams if he would still invest millions in to the industry if they took away wagering. I'm absolutely sure he'd still search the planet for the horse that can win a race over 3200m, especially if he got to keep the gold cup presented at the end of the race.

Further to that, there are many that view that 3-handled gold cup in the same regards as those do for that silver cup given out on the MCG in late September.

i am sure a lot of people really enjoy Horse Racing for many reasons mate.

But without wagering it would not be in the public eye.

Spectators at Flemington do not feel a connection to the cup on Melbourne Cup Day. The connection is the bank balance.

When we win the 13th cup we ALL feel like it is ours.

[The Chazz 4,077]

i am sure a lot of people really enjoy Horse Racing for many reasons mate.

But without wagering it would not be in the public eye.

Spectators at Flemington do not feel a connection to the cup on Melbourne Cup Day. The connection is the bank balance.

When we win the 13th cup we ALL feel like it is ours.

That's rubbish. I can tell you one thing, your "bread and butter" owners, those that get invovled in syndication as it's their most realistic way of experiencing racehorse ownership, they could own 1% of a horse, but if their horse won the Melbourne Cup, it would feel just as much their's as the other 99 owners.

I couldn't give a stuff about it being in the public eye, for me, it's about the photo on the wall. When you're financially invovled in racehorse ownership, there isn't many greater feelings than watching your horse win a race. Generally it's only the wives that ask about the prizemoney, and if I do bet on my own horse, I usually use the winnings to pay the $150 for the framed photo (which I would pay for even if I couldn't bet).

WYL, you would find that I am in the majority, and not the minority group that you think exists. Ask any of them. Go to the winners circle after a race, find out what they are happiest about. Tehre will be a common theme - they had the fastest horse over a particular distance on the day. Nothing about the odds, nothing about the prizemoney.

You would be surprised, but I don't expect you to believe me as you have a very firm view on it, and that's your right!

[The Chazz 4,077]

i am sure a lot of people really enjoy Horse Racing for many reasons mate.

But without wagering it would not be in the public eye.

Spectators at Flemington do not feel a connection to the cup on Melbourne Cup Day. The connection is the bank balance.

When we win the 13th cup we ALL feel like it is ours.

I'd be curious to know how many people attend the Melbourne Cup and NOT bet. Take the punting away and I have no doubt there will be another 100k+ turn up the next year, and the year after, and so on.

[rjay 25,088]

I'd be curious to know how many people attend the Melbourne Cup and NOT bet. Take the punting away and I have no doubt there will be another 100k+ turn up the next year, and the year after, and so on.

Take the alcohol away and see how many show up. It's a party event even the racing people on here will agree with that and it's why a lot of serious race goers steer clear.

I don't consider it a sport but I personally love riding as a past time. It's an un winnable argument from both sides is this one.

As for the gambling I would be happy to see it go from the AFL, other revenue streams will be found. A bit like the end of the world when we couldn't get the smoking $'s.