While Roos has apparently referred to Clark as playing second ruck he's also talked about having a taller midfield.

Don't forget that Clark played as a non-rucking on baller for short periods in some games before he got injured. And he was pretty good at it, too.

I don't want to rob our forward line of Clark.

Maybe it is best that Jamar is there to give cover to two promising but nowhere near ready ruckmen over the next couple of years.

I am really interested to see what Jamar's effectiveness is like in the middle with players to tap to and, importantly, offensive minded players.

Trengove, Tyson, Vince, and Cross actually trying to help Jones win the football.

That helps Jamar.

Agree with this.

Whilst Jamar's HO to advantage stats in the last couple of years won't be flattering, he hasn't had the cattle around him to help. He's still our best tap ruckman, and the bolstered midfield will make him look a lot better. Mind you, I say this with firm recollections of him tapping the ball down the throat of the opposition time and time again, so it's a matter of building something resembling the understanding he developed with Moloney.

Whilst our first ruck stocks may not be looking too hot due to individual deficiencies, if all of Jamar, Spencer, and Gawn are competing for the one spot rather than two, that creates very healthy competition and the odds are in our favour that one of them will hit full stride next year.

It's an interesting angle that the reason the much maligned (on here, and by me included) 'donuts'Jamar could actually look average because he doesn't have the midfield to work with. Not an idea I've seen brought up on here before.

I think it is partly right; some great midfielders around him will improve his value as a tap ruck. What it won't improve are his efforts around the ground or his handballs to stationary players because he was scared to kick it.

The reason I like Gawn is because I think he is the most complete player of the three ruck options, however I admit he is the last developed, particularly when it comes to centre Square rucking.

He chases and tackles, he presents, he looks dangerous drifting forward, and his attack on the ball a a second or third effort at stoppages is great. Jamar rucks well and that's it; even at his AA best that's all he did (in only 6 of his 13 seasons has he averaged more than 7 disposals per game, and over 10 in only 3 seasons). Spencer rucks Ok, is Ok around the ground and second efforts but doesn't rest forward and isn't particular strong in making contests.

If Gawn can get fit over preseason and continue development he will easily be the best of the three given his potential attributes and his age.

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by deanox

Deanox et a.. There ought to be a very different dynamic out there in 14. it may well throw up all sorts of surprises

It's an interesting angle that the reason the much maligned (on here, and by me included) 'donuts'Jamar could actually look average because he doesn't have the midfield to work with. Not an idea I've seen brought up on here before.

I think it is partly right; some great midfielders around him will improve his value as a tap ruck. What it won't improve are his efforts around the ground or his handballs to stationary players because he was scared to kick it.

The reason I like Gawn is because I think he is the most complete player of the three ruck options, however I admit he is the last developed, particularly when it comes to centre Square rucking.

He chases and tackles, he presents, he looks dangerous drifting forward, and his attack on the ball a a second or third effort at stoppages is great. Jamar rucks well and that's it; even at his AA best that's all he did (in only 6 of his 13 seasons has he averaged more than 7 disposals per game, and over 10 in only 3 seasons). Spencer rucks Ok, is Ok around the ground and second efforts but doesn't rest forward and isn't particular strong in making contests.

If Gawn can get fit over preseason and continue development he will easily be the best of the three given his potential attributes and his age.

What does it matter if Jamar is getting 3 kicks less than you want if he is getting the team first use of the footy?

The other two are not where Jamar is at stoppages, and until they surpass him there, they won't become first ruck.

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by rpfc

What does it matter if Jamar is getting 3 kicks less than you want if he is getting the team first use of the footy?

The other two are not where Jamar is at stoppages, and until they surpass him there, they won't become first ruck.

Ben McEvoy says hello, sort of shoots your argument down, one of the worst ruckman for stoppages in the game at the moment but grabbed with both hands by Clarkson, and we all know what a rubbish judge of a player he is

Pretty much impossible.

That's what I find so frustrating about our midfield. Jamar can win almost every tap in the middle, yet the oppositions mids read it like a book and off they go with the clearance once again.

Part of that is due to Jamar's predictability. His lack of height and leap means that he has to out body the opponent and then hit the ball in a predictable spot with his favourable left hand. It's why he worked so well with Moloney for a period but so poorly with anyone else.

Spencer has a much better hit range as he's taller and can jump a bit.

Ben McEvoy says hello, sort of shoots your argument down, one of the worst ruckman for stoppages in the game at the moment but grabbed with both hands by Clarkson, and we all know what a rubbish judge of a player he is

Wasn't really much else on offer though.

Where is our 'well-rounded ruck'?

lol

Clark is our only well rounded ruck at the moment. We may need to trade one in or draft over the next few years if Gawn doesn't come up.

I know most want to see Clark as a permanent forward and the coach has flagged him as a 2nd ruck option but we do need a ruck who can influence the game around the ground and not just contest centre bounces. We're down one mid if Jamar doesn't start holding his grabs and get a bit of ball around the ground.

Wasn't really much else on offer though.

Yep, they could have gone with Longer, made an offer on Hampson, even Jolly or traded in for Jamar. They didn't because they wanted mobile, flexible.

I know a lot of people still rate Jamar, but I'm not one of them... but for two reasons. The first is that he just hasn't played enough with injuries since his AA form...

The second reason and perhaps more important reason is that the game... and more specifically the game rules have passed him by.

The ability for ruckmen to not engage before throw ins etc... has taken away on of the main strengths Jamar had... which is his strength.

The other rule (came in a couple of years back) was that one that required rucks to effectively come from the opposing sides of the centre bounce with a limited amount of room to run in. (Sorry for the non technical definition here)

Both these changes have a made Jamar more ineffectual due to the fact that:

a) he is not big in terms of ruckmen... 198cm-ish and

b) he is not athletic and a big jumping ruckman, he is a bullocking strength type of player, but without the ability to engage the opponent ruck prior to the bounce/throw in,... you basically have to be Sandilands or Andre the Giant to employ such a strategy and get away with it...

Edit: Sorry forgot to add that Gawn needs an engine upgrade before he is considered our best ruck, and Spencil too has deficiencies. I actually agree with whoever said it earlier that we would be a good chance to pick a ruck up as a rookie this year... Just have a hunch that these three we have now... won't be all there at the end of the season...

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by Oucher

I know a lot of people still rate Jamar, but I'm not one of them... but for two reasons. The first is that he just hasn't played enough with injuries since his AA form...

The second reason and perhaps more important reason is that the game... and more specifically the game rules have passed him by.

The ability for ruckmen to not engage before throw ins etc... has taken away on of the main strengths Jamar had... which is his strength.

The other rule (came in a couple of years back) was that one that required rucks to effectively come from the opposing sides of the centre bounce with a limited amount of room to run in. (Sorry for the non technical definition here)

Both these changes have a made Jamar more ineffectual due to the fact that:

a) he is not big in terms of ruckmen... 198cm-ish and

b) he is not athletic and a big jumping ruckman, he is a bullocking strength type of player, but without the ability to engage the opponent ruck prior to the bounce/throw in,... you basically have to be Sandilands or Andre the Giant to employ such a strategy and get away with it...

Edit: Sorry forgot to add that Gawn needs an engine upgrade before he is considered our best ruck, and Spencil too has deficiencies. I actually agree with whoever said it earlier that we would be a good chance to pick a ruck up as a rookie this year... Just have a hunch that these three we have now... won't be all there at the end of the season...

I don't mean to turn this into a Jamar thread but I just highlighted a couple points above for further discussion.

The first point I highlighted in your post intrigues me as I know what the rule is but the moment the ball is in the air the ruckmen engage anyway, it kind of seems a pointless rule unless someone can tell me different.

Final point is on size, who really cares how tall a ruckman is as long as they win the tap. He played injured for the first half of the season and still ended it 4th in the league in hit outs per game. I doubt they would have all been to advantage but not sure how this could have been possible with us effectively having two taggers in the square and one midfielder being tagged himself.

Who knows going forward, he might have three mids in around him to tap it too and we can see him back to his best.

No doubt he would have been hurting following some of his long term mates getting ditched and then for a reason we don't know he was dropped from the leadership group.

I think people here are too quick to right off the big Russian. He is another that I am excited about under Roos to see if he can return to some form and get a bit of confidence back in his game as he looked a complete shadow of his former self over the last two years.

Hoping so anyways and apologies to derail

Part of that is due to Jamar's predictability. His lack of height and leap means that he has to out body the opponent and then hit the ball in a predictable spot with his favourable left hand. It's why he worked so well with Moloney for a period but so poorly with anyone else.

Spencer has a much better hit range as he's taller and can jump a bit.

I think we might see a rejuvenated Jamar in 2014. It was obvious to all and sundry that he and Moloney had a synergy that worked well and last year Jamar was obviously at a loss as to how to work with others. I am hopeful that Roos will be able to develop a similar pairing with someone like Vince or Tyson. If he can, then we will be looking good with Gawn, Spencer, Fitz and Clark all there as second ruck options. Fingers crossed!

While I think an improved midfield will help Jamar be more effective with hitouts, I don't see how it helps him manage to plod out of the centre square once in a while.

While I think an improved midfield will help Jamar be more effective with hitouts, I don't see how it helps him manage to plod out of the centre square once in a while.

You might be surprised how a change in attitude can lead to a sudden improvement in mobility and desire to get the ball. He was able to do it before, and with a new dawn approaching at the MFC, he may find he is able to do it again.

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by hardtack

While I think an improved midfield will help Jamar be more effective with hitouts, I don't see how it helps him manage to plod out of the centre square once in a while.

I think you underestimate how much you won't care about what Jamar is doing if he is getting the ball to Tyson, Trengove, Cross et al.

I think you underestimate how much you won't care about what Jamar is doing if he is getting the ball to Tyson, Trengove, Cross et al.

The days of the hit it and then sit and watch ruckman are long gone rpfc, they actually have to contribute around the ground these days. So, I will care, trust me.

The days of the hit it and then sit and watch ruckman are long gone rpfc, they actually have to contribute around the ground these days. So, I will care, trust me.

If Jamar really is one of the top 3 or so tap ruckman in the league then he probably will also contribute enough to be avoid my scorn. But based on the decline of his ruck work and his general play I don't expect it.

The days of the hit it and then sit and watch ruckman are long gone rpfc, they actually have to contribute around the ground these days. So, I will care, trust me.

Maybe I picked the wrong poster...

A ruckman's job is in the centre square. Don't get fooled by pundits telling you that they 'need to be more involved.'

Jeff White's best years were when he could run at the ball and dominate the centre, his possessions as a link man across the half back/wing were met with indifference by me.

Jamar absolutely needs to be more damaging when not rucking, but ruckmen live and die by what they do in the middle and he is the best we have got for 2014.

Maybe I picked the wrong poster...

A ruckman's job is in the centre square. Don't get fooled by pundits telling you that they 'need to be more involved.'

Jeff White's best years were when he could run at the ball and dominate the centre, his possessions as a link man across the half back/wing were met with indifference by me.

Jamar absolutely needs to be more damaging when not rucking, but ruckmen live and die by what they do in the middle and he is the best we have got for 2014.

It might get back to that one day, but over the last 2-3 years that's not how it's been developing. Hitouts aren't as important anymore.

We were 3rd in average hitouts this year, Gold Coast were 1st.

Hawthorn were 10th, Freo were 11th.

It might get back to that one day, but over the last 2-3 years that's not how it's been developing. Hitouts aren't as important anymore.

We were 3rd in average hitouts this year, Gold Coast were 1st.

Hawthorn were 10th, Freo were 11th.

I don't know where you are looking but the AFL website stats site provided by Champion Data has Melbourne 6th in HO, behind WCE, Syd, NM, Carl and WB.

Incidentally, all of those teams average 39+ clearances a game. The only 5 teams in the league to average above 39 clearances a game.

And we average 32.5.

We can take advantage of those HOs when our midfield has the capability to take advantage.

http://www.afl.com.au/stats

I don't know where you are looking but the AFL website stats site provided by Champion Data has Melbourne 6th in HO, behind WCE, Syd, NM, Carl and WB.

Incidentally, all of those teams average 39+ clearances a game. The only 5 teams in the league to average above 39 clearances a game.

And we average 32.5.

We can take advantage of those HOs when our midfield has the capability to take advantage.

http://www.afl.com.au/stats

Footywire...

Although there seems to be a few stats there that are askew...

But even going by your stats it STILL backs up my point that hitouts FLAT OUT aren't as important as they used to be.

How many clearances does Jamar win? Or are you saying that because our midfielders will be better then Jamar gets let off for not adding anything to the game outside the centre circle?

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by stuie

My god, talk about revisionism! Jamar had a fuckenn lousy season, one of the biggest culprits for the below VFL performances earl season and he is finished. Some of you people still swinging your dick about his 2010 season. Get over it. It's done, he's finished. It is naive to believe jamar wasn't up for trade. No bites, not even a nibble. Jamar seems a good bloke maybe even a great club man but this is not 2010. He is with out a doubt one of the biggest spuds on our list. [censored] loads of hit outs, yeah, but right down the oppositions throat. Can't clunk a mark to save himself, though better than pedo, and gets 1 or 2 kicks a game. He's gone!

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by Munga

The stats that I showed illustrate a direct correlation between teams that win the most HOs and those that win the most Clearances.

It directly refutes your point about HOs being less important, and it also backed up my point that with our team being the outlier has more to do with what midfield is at the feet of our ruckmen.

You are more than welcome to analyse it differently, but I wouldn't get in the habit of willfully misreading things just to back up a point - it leads to journalism...

Edited November 7, 201311 yr by rpfc

The stats that I showed illustrate a direct correlation between teams that win the most HOs and those that win the most Clearances.

I directly refutes your point about HOs being less important, and it also backed up my point that with our team being the outlier has more to do with what midfield is at te feet of our ruckmen.

You are more than welcome to analyse it differently, but I wouldn't get in the habit of willfully misreading things just to back up a point - it leads to journalism...

Well to play Devils advocate here. Something definitely doesnt either add up, or bear relation.. We are 6th at hitouts ? yet we're 2nd last on the ladder.

You infer winning hit outs correlates to clearances. But our effective clearances in 13 were shizen.

If you have a good ruck /roving set up you ought to win the ball and use it to advantage, thats the theory. Thats old footy too. There are in reality only a couple of exceptional rucks out there, what every team needs to do is win/shark the ball and gain control that way. You are better off in reality only forcing a contest and disallowing the opponent carte blanch but pouncing on the dregs as they occur. Any coach worth his salt will realise the likely hood of the tap and instruct his minions to close off opposition paths and to play to their strengths. Watching the game there are incredibly few clean directed winning hitouts.