OUT: Abbott IN: Turnbull

[hardtack 10,127]

A sign held up behind him is all they have?

Perhaps the fact that he and others chose to stand directly in front of it without requesting or enforcing its removal? Guilty by association :-)

[dee-luded 2,958]

Ok. Using your logic you haven't been around since temperature records began so you can stop commenting (alarming) about global warming.

well yes, wrecka. & so can you, in the pro carbon reasoning...

.... but the ice core samples were around back in the day, when records began, & even a smidge before we stated keeping records, wrecka. probably 1000's, millions of years before, records began. wrecka. if you can believe those rotten scurrilous, scientists, with agendas.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Perhaps the fact that he and others chose to stand directly in front of it without requesting or enforcing its removal? Guilty by association :-)

Alot of guilty people in the CFMEU then.

[hardtack 10,127]

Alot of guilty people in the CFMEU then.

So?

[Guest]

A sign held up behind him is all they have?

Abbott's career was symptomatic of a kamikaze style of politics. There was us and there was them in his mind.

He was always meant to be the attack dog that brought down Labor. I don't believe he was ever meant for executive power. He was, sadly, still stuck in the days of University politics where people wanted to win elected office. From that point on however, the consequences of your actions were basically nil. Sadly, if you move into actual government, you are expected to do something. That doesn't include 'conquering' you opponents in the daily news rounds via incendiary rhetoric and political stunts. In this vein, I find it a bit rich that he was carping on about the 'chaos' of minority government when Gillard's legislative record dwarfs his. Again I point out his was the least effective government since Billy McMahon's whose was the last government before Whitlam's. The Whitlam government changed the legislative agenda of governance in Australia in that governments were expected to take on a more activist role. That would mean that Abbott's government was the least productive since the era of activist government began.

He cheapened the entire discourse of the nation by playing on their worst fears and playing to people's basest instincts. For example, was it ever actually considered for a moment that the carbon tax actually worked? Or that in government, you can't just snap your fingers as leader and all will follow. No, it was only remembered for being 'a lie'. It showed the lack of political acumen of the ALP that they could not construct a mature narrative to counter this simplistic twaddle.

While Abbott himself can be accused of a lot of disrespectful behavior during his political career and not just his prime ministership, (i.e. telling that Julia Gillard could 'make an honest woman, politically speaking, of herself', cat calling across the bench at same prime minister, telling people that Bernie Banton wasn't necessarily pure of hear on all things, not to mention those signs) it was the number of weirdos, twistos and freaks that he gave the green light to that is the hallmark of his time as Liberal leader. This is highlighted by such charming behavior as:

* Cory Bernadi saying that gay marriage will lead to acceptance of bestiality (you could put any quote of his in here really)

* George Christensen addressing a Reclaim Australia rally.

* Ian McDonald telling Doug Cameron to 'speak Australian'

* Alan Jones stating that Julia Gillard's father died of shame (plus his chaff bag comment)

* A Liberal party fundraiser putting out a menu in which Julia Gillard was described in less than flattering terms (I won't repeat what was written on said menu)

I'm only scratching the surface really here. If a party leader is responsible for a party's culture, then Abbott has left a sorry culture behind.

P.S. While I'm no fan in the slightest of Pauline Hanson, keep in mind who founded 'Australians for Honest Politics'

[nutbean 8,837]

Hey Wrecker,

Interested in your thoughts on how Turnbull will proceed.

If you look at his views on many issues , it does seem to fly in the face of current Liberal Party policy.

Do you think he will steer the Liberal Party more to the centre and will the conservatives in the party sit quietly if he tries ?

I can see either compromising on beliefs or some rather turbulent times ahead if he chooses to move on his small "l" views.

Edited September 21, 2015 by nutbean

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Abbott's career was symptomatic of a kamikaze style of politics. There was us and there was them in his mind.

He was always meant to be the attack dog that brought down Labor. I don't believe he was ever meant for executive power. He was, sadly, still stuck in the days of University politics where people wanted to win elected office. From that point on however, the consequences of your actions were basically nil. Sadly, if you move into actual government, you are expected to do something. That doesn't include 'conquering' you opponents in the daily news rounds via incendiary rhetoric and political stunts. In this vein, I find it a bit rich that he was carping on about the 'chaos' of minority government when Gillard's legislative record dwarfs his. Again I point out his was the least effective government since Billy McMahon's whose was the last government before Whitlam's. The Whitlam government changed the legislative agenda of governance in Australia in that governments were expected to take on a more activist role. That would mean that Abbott's government was the least productive since the era of activist government began.

CBF - I've already explained why it is flawed logic to judge a Government on number of bills passed. Repeating your flawed argument doesn't make it any better.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

He cheapened the entire discourse of the nation by playing on their worst fears and playing to people's basest instincts. For example, was it ever actually considered for a moment that the carbon tax actually worked? Or that in government, you can't just snap your fingers as leader and all will follow. No, it was only remembered for being 'a lie'. It showed the lack of political acumen of the ALP that they could not construct a mature narrative to counter this simplistic twaddle.

It depends on how you judge the success of the carbon tax.

If you expected it to have any measurable impact on the climate even in the long term it is/was an abject failure.

If you think it is the best way to transition to a more efficient form of energy history is against you. The great leaps forward for man kind in technology haven't been helped along by taxing the existing technology. We didn't move from horse and cart to motor vehicle through a horse and cart tax. We didn't go from typewriter to computer on the back of a typewriter tax. We moved because the technology was better. When a cheaper more efficient form of energy is commercially viable we will switch.

If you are worried about pollution then lets concentrate on eradicating that. Carbon dioxide is no pollution.

If you judge it on a shift away from capitalism and towards more Government control then it is a great policy.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

While Abbott himself can be accused of a lot of disrespectful behavior during his political career and not just his prime ministership, (i.e. telling that Julia Gillard could 'make an honest woman, politically speaking, of herself', cat calling across the bench at same prime minister, telling people that Bernie Banton wasn't necessarily pure of hear on all things, not to mention those signs) it was the number of weirdos, twistos and freaks that he gave the green light to that is the hallmark of his time as Liberal leader.

What Abbott actually said was "I think if the Prime Minister wants to make, politically speaking, an honest woman of herself, she needs to seek a mandate for a carbon tax and she should do that at the next election.".

To any impartial political commentator that should be fair given on the eve of the election Gillard said "There will be no carbon tax under a Government I lead" and we all know how that changed after the election.

But such was the hatred for Abbott that any time he winked, looked at his watch or called a female out for lying there was some underlying form of misogyny involved. I'm not sure what Penny Wong or Tanya Pliserbek will talk about now that Tony is on the back bench. I haven't heard them speak a sentence without saying "but Tony Abbott" in the last 6 years.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

While Abbott himself can be accused of a lot of disrespectful behavior during his political career and not just his prime ministership, (i.e. telling that Julia Gillard could 'make an honest woman, politically speaking, of herself', cat calling across the bench at same prime minister, telling people that Bernie Banton wasn't necessarily pure of hear on all things, not to mention those signs) it was the number of weirdos, twistos and freaks that he gave the green light to that is the hallmark of his time as Liberal leader. This is highlighted by such charming behavior as:

* Cory Bernadi saying that gay marriage will lead to acceptance of bestiality (you could put any quote of his in here really)

* George Christensen addressing a Reclaim Australia rally.

* Ian McDonald telling Doug Cameron to 'speak Australian'

* Alan Jones stating that Julia Gillard's father died of shame (plus his chaff bag comment)

* A Liberal party fundraiser putting out a menu in which Julia Gillard was described in less than flattering terms (I won't repeat what was written on said menu)

I'm only scratching the surface really here. If a party leader is responsible for a party's culture, then Abbott has left a sorry culture behind.

P.S. While I'm no fan in the slightest of Pauline Hanson, keep in mind who founded 'Australians for Honest Politics'

That was disgusting but can hardly be attributed to Abbott no matter which way you slant it.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Hey Wrecker,

Interested in your thoughts on how Turnbull will proceed.

If you look at his views on many issues , it does seem to fly in the face of current Liberal Party policy.

Do you think he will steer the Liberal Party more to the centre and will the conservatives in the party sit quietly if he tries ?

I can see either compromising on beliefs or some rather turbulent times ahead if he chooses to move on his small "l" views.

His social views seem more in line with Labor than Liberal but his free market ideas are stronger than Abbott's ever were.

The Nationals have already got in writing that their support for Turnbull and a coalition Government is dependant on the keeping of existing climate change and marriage policies. If he shifts left on other social issues it could make for interesting watching.

[nutbean 8,837]

But such was the hatred for Abbott that any time he winked, looked at his watch or called a female out for lying there was some underlying form of misogyny involved. I'm not sure what Penny Wong or Tanya Pliserbek will talk about now that Tony is on the back bench. I haven't heard them speak a sentence without saying "but Tony Abbott" in the last 6 years.

Unfortunately, in this day and age politicians are judged as much on "appeal" as they are on policy.

I have compared them before - Howard vs Abbott. I am on record as not being a fan of either policy wise but I acknowledge that Howard was an exceptional politician.

Howard rarely if ever misspoke and always looked and acted in command.

Turnbull comes across as very relaxed and confident and in the "appeal" stakes is miles ahead already of Abbott.

Turnbull's resurgence is Bill Shortens worst nightmare. I find Shorten insipid and whilst the spotlight was not on him during Abbott's tenure, the performing ability between Turnbull and Shorten in my eyes is in stark contrast.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Unfortunately, in this day and age politicians are judged as much on "appeal" as they are on policy.

I have compared them before - Howard vs Abbott. I am on record as not being a fan of either policy wise but I acknowledge that Howard was an exceptional politician.

Howard rarely if ever misspoke and always looked and acted in command.

Turnbull comes across as very relaxed and confident and in the "appeal" stakes is miles ahead already of Abbott.

Turnbull's resurgence is Bill Shortens worst nightmare. I find Shorten insipid and whilst the spotlight was not on him during Abbott's tenure, the performing ability between Turnbull and Shorten in my eyes is in stark contrast.

Agreed. Abbott appears awkward whereas Turnbull is charming and self confident. Turnbull would have never stopped the boats, repealed the carbon tax or suggested a plebiscite on same sex marriage yet will reap the reward of Abbott's hard work because of his style alone.

You could see the difference in Liegh Sales on 7:30 last night she has gone from shrill with Abbott to Fawning on Turnbull. No change of policy just a change in style.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Wrecker45

[Guest]

That was disgusting but can hardly be attributed to Abbott no matter which way you slant it.

I contest that.

It's not like Abbott had his hand up the back of Jones' shirt, manipulating him like a ventriloquist dummy but I am a BIG believer that many out there do take their cues from what their leaders say.

Our citizenship are famously cynical of politicians and that is a very healthy attitude to take. However, in years past, what people have been able to say and not say has been dictated by what is allowed to be said in the public sphere by those in positions of responsibility. Sure, there have always been fruit loops and a***holes in both the political and public sphere but I always believe, if they act without the patronage of those higher up, they lose oxygen eventually and whatever influence they have withers and dies.

When Abbott decided to go full throttle on his war on Labor, the rulebook was torn up. The opposition wasn't merely wrong on policy, they were morally repugnant. Whilst Craig Thomson clearly was living in a world of denial and was morally compromised to say the least, it says a lot that Mal Washer, a Liberal parliamentarian but also a GP, had to intervene in his party to ensure that something horrible would not happen as he could see the emotional distress Thomson was in. Also see Peter Slipper, Julia Gillard and the Slater's controversy, Larry Pickering and those protests on the lawns of parliament house. Not to mention what Alan Jones and Ray Hadley were belching out most days.

I also believe that a nation's racial attitudes are often shaped by the say so of their leader but since I have been translating for four hours today, I will leave that discussion for another time.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Colin B. Flaubert

[P-man 13,276]

Agreed. Abbott appears awkward whereas Turnbull is charming and self confident. Turnbull would have never stopped the boats, repealed the carbon tax or suggested a plebiscite on same sex marriage yet will reap the reward of Abbott's hard work because of his style alone.

You could see the difference in Liegh Sales on 7:30 last night she has gone from shrill with Abbott to Fawning on Turnbull. No change of policy just a change in style.

It's a mixture of bewildering and amusing seeing rusted ons in the last week scrape the barrel in an attempt to paint Abbott's horrible legacy as Prime Minister in a positive light. His "hard work" with regard to same sex marriage. Genune lols.

History will give zero shits about him scrapping the carbon tax. Many conservatives struggle to feign interest now. People cared about it as part of his election campaign because he flat out lied about the damage it was doing and the benefit that would result from him scrapping it. Its removal benefitted very few in any substantial way other than his mates at the top end of town, and the dope kept the compensation packages in one of numerous budgeting "mishaps".

Australia WILL MOVE to a price on carbon. Fools can stick their head in the sand in perpetuity. The world is moving in that direction. Fast. We're just now back behind the eight ball with the economy in a state of complete disrepair. Far worse than when he came to office, as can be said for unemployment, job security, the budget deficit, business confidence...almost any indicator you can name, Tony has slammed us into reverse.

We'll give him a tick on "stopping the boats", and temporarily ignore the secrecy, coercing cover ups, paying off people smugglers, neglect towards detention conditions, relocation of deaths, and the fact we don't actually know they were stopped.

Turnbull is retaining existing policy more as a political move than anything else. He knows from past experience that rocking the boat too much isn't good for his capital inside party room walls. He has stated publicly he intends to negotiate. Most importantly of all that means with the cabinet and his own party. You can rest assured that "captain's calls" will be a thing of the past. We know what he REALLY thinks constitutes suitable action on climate change, same sex marriage and the NBN. But for now, the cards are to be kept close to the chest. He needs to ease into the bath this time, not dive head first.

I honestly don't know how Turnbull will fare as PM, although his business acumen can't hurt at a time when foreign investors are hitting the snooze button. I do know that the Libs now have a much better chance of being re-elected. You would hope this will spurr Bill Shorten into actually doing something. He can no longer sit back and watch the other job self destruct. The problem for the ALP is that Shorten is about as inspiring as a wet tea towel.

Turnbull might be more charismatic than his predecessor but he also has more substance as a leader and a greater likelihood to ultimately put the greater good ahead of political point scoring. One can only hope.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Turnbull is retaining existing policy more as a political move than anything else. He knows from past experience that rocking the boat too much isn't good for his capital inside party room walls. He has stated publicly he intends to negotiate. Most importantly of all that means with the cabinet and his own party. You can rest assured that "captain's calls" will be a thing of the past. We know what he REALLY thinks constitutes suitable action on climate change, same sex marriage and the NBN. But for now, the cards are to be kept close to the chest. He needs to ease into the bath this time, not dive head first.

Turnbull is keeping existing policy because his ego will be removed from parliament if he changes Abbott's winning position on the Carbon Tax and Same Sex Marriage. I'd love you to explain to me how we KNOW what Turnbull really thinks but he is keeping his cards close to his chest. Surely it is either one or the other.

[Guest]

Turnbull is keeping existing policy because his ego will be removed from parliament if he changes Abbott's winning position on the Carbon Tax and Same Sex Marriage. I'd love you to explain to me how we KNOW what Turnbull really thinks but he is keeping his cards close to his chest. Surely it is either one or the other.

For his previous views on direct action, see here and for his previous views on same sex marriage, see here. Whilst on a moral level, I disagree with what he is doing now, I believe that on a pragmatic level that he really has no choice. The knuckle draggers in the Liberal Party hate him as it is and he can't give them any ammunition. His cabinet reshuffle left most of the time servers and flat earthers out in the cold so he has already rocked the boat.

It boils down to this wrecker:

I think it's been fairly well established that I am more to the left than I am to the right. Sadly, I think, as I have said on here before, this is mostly because the whole spectrum moved to the right in the 80's so someone like myself who would be called a small l liberal back in the day has no choice but to vote for parties such as the Greens.

I however do not drink the kool aid. I look at governments such as the Whitlam government and the Rudd/Gillard government and can say categorically that they did not work when history looks back at them. Largely for different reasons mind you but they could not be deemed successful (Whitlam had no idea how the public service worked and how to exercise power properly while the Gillard government just couldn't remain cohesive despite a largely underrated legislative record).

When does intellectual honesty come into this? Abbott was about to drag your party into an electoral abyss. The reality is that the man was so electorally toxic by the end that Bill Shorten could have established a policy of bio-engineering a sinister, bizarro version of Captain Planet to literally wipe out Whyalla with his super powers as his environmental policy and he still would have won the next election.

[P-man 13,276]

Turnbull is keeping existing policy because his ego will be removed from parliament if he changes Abbott's winning position on the Carbon Tax and Same Sex Marriage. I'd love you to explain to me how we KNOW what Turnbull really thinks but he is keeping his cards close to his chest. Surely it is either one or the other.

Even a half interest in Turnbull's political career would inform you of his stance on those issues. He is a lot more progressive than Abbott in those areas, but he has to win over his colleagues' trust before coming in and upsetting the apple cart.

In saying all that, I'm still aware that Turnbull's reputation as a champion of the left is very much overblown. He is still every bit a Lib.

Edited September 22, 2015 by P-man

[Guest]

What Abbott actually said was "I think if the Prime Minister wants to make, politically speaking, an honest woman of herself, she needs to seek a mandate for a carbon tax and she should do that at the next election.".

To any impartial political commentator that should be fair given on the eve of the election Gillard said "There will be no carbon tax under a Government I lead" and we all know how that changed after the election.

But such was the hatred for Abbott that any time he winked, looked at his watch or called a female out for lying there was some underlying form of misogyny involved. I'm not sure what Penny Wong or Tanya Pliserbek will talk about now that Tony is on the back bench. I haven't heard them speak a sentence without saying "but Tony Abbott" in the last 6 years.

I won't go through all of your posts but I just noticed there were three more besides the one that I replied to.

You seriously can't see that saying to an unmarried woman (one who by the way had been criticized by some of the rock apes opposite for not being fit for leadership for remaining 'deliberately barren') that she needs to make an 'honest woman of herself' as ridiculously misogynistic? The phrase used towards women back in the old days who were engaged in a sexual relationship outside marriage? Like the relationship Julia Gillard was in?

He could have said 'if the prime minister wanted to be politically honest with the electorate then...'

If this were a one off from Abbott it could slide but it wasn't. Remember when he called Shorten 'the Doctor Goebbels of economic policy'?

Edited September 23, 2015 by Colin B. Flaubert

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Even a half interest in Turnbull's political career would inform you of his stance on those issues. He is a lot more progressive than Abbott in those areas, but he has to win over his colleagues' trust before coming in and upsetting the apple cart.

In saying all that, I'm still aware that Turnbull's reputation as a champion of the left is very much overblown. He is still every bit a Lib.

I'm very familiar with Turnbull's stance on those issues and that is why I am concerned about him.

My interest was in what you meant by we KNOW what Turnbull thinks yet you go on to say he is keeping his cards close to his chest.

[greenmachine 21]

i think this will do the country good but bit of a dog act

[P-man 13,276]

I'm very familiar with Turnbull's stance on those issues and that is why I am concerned about him.

My interest was in what you meant by we KNOW what Turnbull thinks yet you go on to say he is keeping his cards close to his chest.

For a third time, keeping his cards close in terms of refusal to can existing policies despite some of them running contrary to his own personal views.

Edited September 23, 2015 by P-man

[dpositive 1,557]

The ascension of Turnbull is interesting. Abbott was toxic and so was Hockey. Canning result was a pointer.

Will Morrison be any better than Jo? So much will be hanging on his performance.

Turnbull has the popular vote as people think his moderate civil and intelligent comments are desirable. What will happen when they find it is the same ideology with a different salesman as I am sure Labour party will portray.

Shorten presented as a totally different package on Q&A although maybe not many of the swinging voters will watch the show.

It will be interesting to see how the polls react to his measured and quite personable appearance. If he can maintain his conversation as a moderate presenting the policies of Labour in a less wooden presentation and out Turnbull as a hypocrite the results may well swing.

Looking forward to some interesting iinternal politics in the LIB/ NAt coalition government and some consolidation of labour strategies probably left until closer to an election.

[dee-luded 2,958]

For a third time, keeping his cards close in terms of refusal to can existing policies despite some of them running contrary to his own personal views.

He is going to be consultative as PM, as he said... so the only way he can get the things he wants, is to change the cabinet as much as possible, into one that resembles his own ideals.

he has done this as much as possible so far, & ended some x cabinet careers, thankfully. So the creeps towards the 'T' party, direction, has been slowed somewhat. for now.

[dee-luded 2,958]

The ascension of Turnbull is interesting. Abbott was toxic and so was Hockey. Canning result was a pointer.

Will Morrison be any better than Jo? So much will be hanging on his performance.

Turnbull has the popular vote as people think his moderate civil and intelligent comments are desirable. What will happen when they find it is the same ideology with a different salesman as I am sure Labour party will portray.

Shorten presented as a totally different package on Q&A although maybe not many of the swinging voters will watch the show.

It will be interesting to see how the polls react to his measured and quite personable appearance. If he can maintain his conversation as a moderate presenting the policies of Labour in a less wooden presentation and out Turnbull as a hypocrite the results may well swing.

Looking forward to some interesting iinternal politics in the LIB/ NAt coalition government and some consolidation of labour strategies probably left until closer to an election.

Abbott and Hockey were toxic, true... but one thing they had was being more forthright. they couldn't hide their ideals, or their pleasure & arrogance.

.... but turnbull & morrison will charm the pants off the women, & some men, but plan to stab them in the back, whilst charming them.

at least they are not as razor, as the righteous 't's...