OUT: Abbott IN: Turnbull

[daisycutter 29,606]

elected by protest vote narrowly, rather than via love, respect & admiration. imo says it all

we got not what we wanted, but spite.

jaysus d-l, wot you bin smokin tonight?

when did "lurv" become part of the electoral landscape?

you worry me sometimes

[P-man 13,366]

It's easy to compile a long list of stuff-ups for any Government, good or bad.

I guess the reverse question is, what is or will be the legacy of the Labor 2007-13 era?

I can't think of one.

Hawke and Keating deregulated the economy, floated the dollar, started cutting tariffs.

Howard reformed the tax system, and, to a lesser extent, workplace relations (first wave was largely embraced, workchoices went too far and was repealed). Gun reform too after Port Arthur.

I just think we've stalled in the last 10 years. It began in Howard's last term and has continued through all Governments since. It's worth noting that the 2 most senior public servants of recent years, Ken Henry and Terry Moran, have both said there is a public policy crisis in Australia, with no appetite for serious reform among the political leadership, and, consequently, the public.

ED: spelling

I think that's mostly fair, but Gillard did manage to pass 500 pieces of legislation in a minority government, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Legacies would include:

- steering through the GFC (not to be dismissed)

- dismantling WorkChoices and establishing Fair Work Australia

- disability care

- education reform - reforming secondary and expanding tertiary

- improving the pay of low-paid workers

- removing over 80 forms of discrimination against same-sex couples

- Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse

- Murray River water management reform

Contestable would be the instituting of the carbon price, which was a major reform that they did achieve despite Abbott tearing it down. For whatever Abbott has attempted to dismantle, Labor established agencies such as ARENA and the Clean Energy Finance Corporation to mobilise capital investment in renewable energy, low-emission technologies and energy efficiency. Despite having their funding slashed and massive investment uncertainty now prevalent, they are still kicking around.

The stolen generation apology is also contentious as some would argue it was a Rudd ego exercise, but it was still noteable.

My interest isn't in being a Labor apologist. I do maintain that Abbott is, already, the worst Prime Minister we've ever had or are likely to have.

Edited January 28, 2015 by P-man

[Earl Hood 6,082]

So you believe the pink batts were a raging success?

I'll give you a few examples but given your support of the pink batts fiasco that cost people their lives I'm guessing you aren't a rational thinker and unlikely to change your opinion based on facts.

There will be no carbon Tax under a Government I lead

pink batts

the "humanitarian" approach to boat people that cost people their lives and saw record numbers of people including children in detention

That "free" money Rudd gave us to stimulate the economy where everyone bought a flat screen tv from china. Now we're in debt

pink batts

The mining tax that raised no income

In the election campaign claiming the Carbon Tax could not be removed

In the election campaign saying the boats could not be stopped

pink batts

Insisting on an NBS with no cost benefit analysis

Craig Thompson and Gillard's unwavering support

Recruitment of Peter Slipper

pink batts

Corruption of the Australian Television network tender

Green loans debacle

Cash for clunkers

pink batts

Live cattle export ban - knee jerk reaction

Citizens council - what happened to all the ideas?

Fuel watch

pink batts

Damaged foreign relations - particularly China which was supposed to be Rudd's strong point

poker machine commitment to Wilkie

pink batts

And that is all I can think of off the top of my head.

Wrecker you obviously have an issue with the pink batts saga. Sorry that people died but gee how many die monthly in construction across the nation, where is the outcry, the Royal Commissions on those? Yes the pink batts program could have been better managed, that is a no brainer but the primary responsibility for safety is with the supervisor of the workplace, not Peter Garrett, the then minister. One or two of the victims died of heat exhaustion for heavens sake, that is an issue for the supervisor of the job. The facts are that the death rate before Rudd was higher per 1000 installations than during and after the Pink Batts program, largely because the program brought in some regulations to control the Cowboys in the industry.

Actually the pink batt Royal Commission could be pivotal. If it finds against the minister then I wonder what government will implement a works program in the future. Tony's so called Green Army comes to mind, but why wouldn't you extend this concept to the deployment of troops to combat areas such as Afganistan? I know If I had been sent off to Iraq on one of Howard's follies and got injured I would be looking for revenge big time.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Says it all doesn't it. How bad was the previous Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government? Abbott was the most unelectable person on the Liberal's front bench and yet he still won in a landslide. Purely to get rid of the toxic Labor Government. Abbott needs to go for the good of the country so we can get Scott Morison or Julie Bishop in and ensure consecutive adult Governments.

not the best. & ego's out of line...

we haven't had great governments since the 90's.

the rabbott will dig another hole, as rabbotts do.

[dee-luded 2,959]

For the more politically minded, where does Tony Abbott rank in terms of the worst democratically elected national leaders in world history?

I think he's still well ahead of Billy McMahon but the gap's closing.

both are as silly as dumbo & dumb'er... all in a flap now

he needs another tank picture, or climbing into a jet fighter, now theres a novel media script... maybe he can land on a aircraft harrier & state all is good.

[dee-luded 2,959]

He's not even the worst in Australia's short-term history given we just came out of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd debacle. Prior to that he is the worst in my life time living through Hawke / Keating and Howard. Not sure on the world stage. Suspect he will finish with more achievements than Obama unless you count frivolous Nobel Piece Prizes.

he's well below both Rudd & Gillard. Rudd had charisma, Gillard had balls & vision but not a lot of charisma or support.

rabbott has determination & had the ability to keep his mouth shut most of the time under howard. the only time rabbott speaks well is when he's trying to demean someone. he has no class, no wit, no brains, & no real vision for this country other than number crunching Via his bean counters; but a lot of self belief & determination. He is dangerous to this country & its once beautiful, Egalitarian culture... they are strangling it at this very moment.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I had very high hopes for the Labor Government when they came to office but they were a huge disappointment, if not a complete failure.

They got it wrong on asylum seeker policy, dismantling the harsh but effective Howard regime which ultimately caused many deaths at sea.

They messed up on climate change, putting a carbon price on the backburner after claiming it was the greatest moral threat to our generation. The Greens didn't help by refusing to compromise on an ETS, but Rudd mishandled the politics when Turnbull was Opposition Leader, straddling a fence which wooed Turnbull and the Libs to support a scheme on the one hand while ridiculing them for flip-flopping on the other. It ultimately cost Turnbull his job and brought Abbott into play.

They made a mess of the mining tax, a policy which should have been a rolled gold winner with the electorate but ended up being a farcical policy which collected next to no revenue.

Remember health reform and the federal takeover of hospitals? That fell in a hole from which it never re-appeared.

Yes, they deserve a tick on the GFC, although we would not have been able to withstand the storm as well as we did if the finances weren't in the condition they were thanks to the previous Government (or the resources boom, whichever way you want to call it).

NDIS was also a big winner in my book, although it remains to be seen whether we can afford its proper implementation and expansion nationwide.

they (Rudd) were elected to change the boat people regime, that had seen people on razor wire within our own nation... right or wrong its what the People Wanted and the end of howard, reith & he who doesn't draw back, sorry, I should say, didn't inhale... whats his name again?

[dee-luded 2,959]

Okay, so the usual candidates.

Of course the four lives lost is a tragedy, but the issue became disgustingly politicised imo. Tragic as they were, their deaths were quite shamelessly used as political fodder.

I accept that Abbott devotees have a perverse obsession with "stopping the boats" and that topic has been done to death. I will continue to call [censored] on the humanitarian grounds for support. They are plainly fear grounds for the most part. I'll also accept that the arrivals have stopped when there is full disclosure. Whilst we remain in the dark, so do the proclamations of "mission accomplished". It's also worth noting that the Libs conveniently took all the credit for a PNG arrangement that Labor put in place prior to the election.

"No carbon tax" pledge was flogged to death by Alan Jones to his singled celled listeners, when it was largely inconsequential. Gillard couldn't negotiate her model so a transitionary measure was put in place. It was still a price on carbon, with a plan to move to a market based scheme. Now the taxpayers who protested its existence because they were convinced it was the root of all evil are the ones coughing up the billions of dollars to fund climate action, instead of big business who are the ones doing the emitting. Cause that makes a whole heap of sense, said no expert ever.

Blaming them for Peter Slipper's actions barely deserves acknowledgement. Similarly, to be critical of the stimulus package that kept our heads above water, a package that was praised worldwide by leading economists, is equally narrow minded.

For all the bluster over supposedly damaged relations with China, the largest contract ever signed between China and Australia was engineered in the midst of it with the $50 billion ExxonMobil LNG deal in 2009. That's how damaged relations were.

Aside from that a couple of piddly schemes that didn't perform as hoped.

I will agree with Grape on the mining tax which was a total [censored] up by Gillard. She got all the big boys in the room to negotiate, and with their free ride it turned into a wasted venture. The Citizens Council was also a farce and waste of time. Don't know how much it cost. Hopefully not a lot. Questions over the live cattle export ban were legitimate.

But really, when you look at that list, it doesn't match the claims of "omg worst government eva". Let's take a snapshot of the current mob..

We currently face a 6.2% unemployment rate and a budget situation that continues to worsen because of decisions like a $9 billion injection to the RBA that no economist thought was necessary, coupled with half arsed jobs at cobbling together policies with an often total absence of consultation, and then arrogantly trying to force through the Senate what are essentially BAD ideas. Even Howard was able to negotiate his legislation through a hostile Senate .

As for cost benefit analyses, let's talk about the Coalition promise that any project worth more than $100 million would be subject to a cost benefit analysis before it was funded and that the "roads of the 21st century" would be under construction within 12 months. Neither have happened. Add them to the list of broken promises. And what a list it is. Not just lies by technical definition. Flat out, bold faced lies. What's the tally up to now? Is it 9 or 10?

Let's not even get into the Medicare fiasco.

I haven't even scratched the surface of the list of failures (I'd be here all night). Yet somehow, you can justify in your mind that Rudd and Gillard were worse.

Look. It's okay to have regrets about voting for Abbott.

Seriously major regrets.

"What the actual [censored] was I thinking?" type of regrets.

it was to late anyway for a superprofits tax under Gillards term as it turned out. it should have happened under howard & rudd... once it got up & running it had been gutted anyway, & the trade dropped away as the US, then Europe & China slowed.

so rabbotts answer is to crash the poors services long term, put a temporary short-term tax on the wealthy & middle, & undermine the workers support structures via rising unemployment in the construction & manufacturing sectors. the sectors we are more costly in compared to asia.

More unemployment means 'beggars can't be choosers', right rabbott. so wages & conditions come down as does the small business peoples factories who are supplying the car industry with parts, machinery bits & stock, such as metal bar for turning down into parts, & tools for other businesses, etc

... he will wreck this place, until it no longer resembles Australia. then he can clamber back on-board a ship & sail back to his place of birth & maybe one-day receive an OBE.

.

[dee-luded 2,959]

jaysus d-l, wot you bin smokin tonight?

when did "lurv" become part of the electoral landscape?

you worry me sometimes

gough whitlam, bob hawke, the love of your fellow man, admiration type of love.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I think that's mostly fair, but Gillard did manage to pass 500 pieces of legislation in a minority government, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Legacies would include:

- steering through the GFC (not to be dismissed)

- dismantling WorkChoices and establishing Fair Work Australia

- disability care

- education reform - reforming secondary and expanding tertiary

- improving the pay of low-paid workers

- removing over 80 forms of discrimination against same-sex couples

- Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse

- Murray River water management reform

Contestable would be the instituting of the carbon price, which was a major reform that they did achieve despite Abbott tearing it down. For whatever Abbott has attempted to dismantle, Labor established agencies such as ARENA and the Clean Energy Finance Corporation to mobilise capital investment in renewable energy, low-emission technologies and energy efficiency. Despite having their funding slashed and massive investment uncertainty now prevalent, they are still kicking around.

The stolen generation apology is also contentious as some would argue it was a Rudd ego exercise, but it was still noteable.

My interest isn't in being a Labor apologist. I do maintain that Abbott is, already, the worst Prime Minister we've ever had or are likely to have.

They tackled some of the toughest questions like the water reforms, during the last big drought & after. The issues no one wanted to take on were taken on, & yes even the super profits mining tax which was played out disgracefully thru the media.

And also trying to start reducing our carbon pollution emissions.

giving some fairness back to workers

making some soulful repairs to our original Australians.

more & more, that people just interested in money, won't or cannot understand, or be interested in.

you see, making money isn't making good lives, it just makes more inflationary spiral & higher costs & more stress.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Wrecker you obviously have an issue with the pink batts saga. Sorry that people died but gee how many die monthly in construction across the nation, where is the outcry, the Royal Commissions on those? Yes the pink batts program could have been better managed, that is a no brainer but the primary responsibility for safety is with the supervisor of the workplace, not Peter Garrett, the then minister. One or two of the victims died of heat exhaustion for heavens sake, that is an issue for the supervisor of the job. The facts are that the death rate before Rudd was higher per 1000 installations than during and after the Pink Batts program, largely because the program brought in some regulations to control the Cowboys in the industry.

Actually the pink batt Royal Commission could be pivotal. If it finds against the minister then I wonder what government will implement a works program in the future. Tony's so called Green Army comes to mind, but why wouldn't you extend this concept to the deployment of troops to combat areas such as Afganistan? I know If I had been sent off to Iraq on one of Howard's follies and got injured I would be looking for revenge big time.

he just doesn't like the pink ones, they get right up his nostrils.

the greedy & ruthless contractors who did not look out for their workers are at fault, apart from the rushed effort in getting it rolling out.

the world came within a whisker of financial collapse, got a heavy dose of financial Flu; & we had a weeping nose from it. the pollies took the advice to inject funds into the economy to keep the momentum going... it did.

in the US & in European nations they were Printing bank notes & pushing the money out into their economies... they've had interest rates next to 0,,, & still they are suffering the ramifications of the GFC & the China/India syndrome.

[daisycutter 29,606]

didn't the silver bodgie give the duke an ao

[nutbean 8,838]

You know you are on the nose as a conservative PM when Andrew Bolt is jettisoning you.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

I’m not on here to defend Abbott I have already said he is the worst Government in my lifetime aside from the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government.

But

His core (I know) election promises were to:

• Repeal the carbon tax
• Repeal the mining tax
• And stop the boats

It was a slogan that drove everyone crazy and he repeated it and repeated it.

They were hardly visionary but he has achieved the promises he was voted in on whether you agree with them or not. If every Government did what they promised and set out to achieve we would be a better place.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

You know you are on the nose as a conservative PM when Andrew Bolt is jettisoning you.

Bolt has been critical of every conservative Government since he has been blogging.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Wrecker you obviously have an issue with the pink batts saga. Sorry that people died but gee how many die monthly in construction across the nation, where is the outcry, the Royal Commissions on those? Yes the pink batts program could have been better managed, that is a no brainer but the primary responsibility for safety is with the supervisor of the workplace, not Peter Garrett, the then minister. One or two of the victims died of heat exhaustion for heavens sake, that is an issue for the supervisor of the job. The facts are that the death rate before Rudd was higher per 1000 installations than during and after the Pink Batts program, largely because the program brought in some regulations to control the Cowboys in the industry.

Actually the pink batt Royal Commission could be pivotal. If it finds against the minister then I wonder what government will implement a works program in the future. Tony's so called Green Army comes to mind, but why wouldn't you extend this concept to the deployment of troops to combat areas such as Afganistan? I know If I had been sent off to Iraq on one of Howard's follies and got injured I would be looking for revenge big time.

No I was just emphasising it because for some reason P-man in the post I was responding to played it down as if it wasn't a policy failure.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I’m not on here to defend Abbott I have already said he is the worst Government in my lifetime aside from the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government.

But

His core (I know) election promises were to:

• Repeal the carbon tax
• Repeal the mining tax
• And stop the boats

It was a slogan that drove everyone crazy and he repeated it and repeated it.

They were hardly visionary but he has achieved the promises he was voted in on whether you agree with them or not. If every Government did what they promised and set out to achieve we would be a better place.

I'll just leave this here

[Wrecker45 3,378]

I'll just leave this here

And I am critical of Abbott for that. Unlike some on here I am more concerned about good Government rather than barracking for a side.

I hope you are equally scathing on Gillard's there will be no mining tax under any Government I lead comment.

[P-man 13,366]

No I was just emphasising it because for some reason P-man in the post I was responding to played it down as if it wasn't a policy failure.

That wasn't my intention. Certainly it was a mismanaged program, but it's within the context that Hood pointed out. It also seems to be the number one go-to option when talking policy failures, along with the dreaded carbon tax *dun dun dunnnnn*

[P-man 13,366]

I hope you are equally scathing on Gillard's there will be no mining tax under any Government I lead comment.

It was carbon tax, and I've explained in my earlier post why the significance of that was drastically overstated. Most people wouldn't have the faintest idea about the difference between the operation of an ETS and a carbon tax, but they were told repeatedly they should be outraged over it.

Gillard always said the policy was to put a price on carbon. She didn't deliberately mislead on the issue. She had to have a fixed price (tax) due to an election result that few would have predicted. Her hand was forced, and the difference in impact to consumers was negligible to nil. The plan was always to move to an ETS and that never changed. It was simply delayed.

But if you wish to label it a lie, so be it. It was one lie. Abbott is clocking up broken promises for fun, and it's hard to argue that a number of these weren't pre-meditated:

- broke promise on Gonski to commit future funding and require States to match Commonwealth funding

- "no cuts to education" - cuts funding for trade training centres in schools

- "no cuts to health" - cuts funding to the Alcohol and Other Drugs Council; cuts $150 million from hospitals and health services; cuts to preventative health; reduces the medicare benefit for optometry services and allows optometrists to charge more; axes the Charles Sturt University’s dental and oral health clinics; abolishes medicare locals

- broke promise to provide fibre-to-the-premises for all Tasmanians for the NBN

- “no cuts to the ABC or SBS" - cuts $43.5 million from the ABC and SBS

- "no new taxes" - deficit tax rise of two percentage points for people earning more than $180,000 a year; fuel levy; $900 tax on new homes connecting to the NBN; medicare "optional co-payment" (tax)

- sacking of 16,500 public sector workers despite promising only 12,000 job losses and through natural attrition

- reduction in foreign aid budget of $7.9 billion over five years despite promise to not exceed $4.5 billion and cut via indexation

- "no changes to pensions" - increases the pension age to 70 from 2035; cuts to old age pension by indexing to CPI

- “no unexpected detrimental changes to superannuation” - axes Low Income Super Contribution, the Superannuation Guarantee and delays superannuation increases for seven years.

But yeah, Gillard was way worse.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

But yeah, Gillard was way worse.

P-man if you read my posts you will notice I have been equally critical of Abbott's lies. Infact, I think the ABC needs massive cuts if not privatisation, however, given Abbott said there will be no cuts to the ABC in the election campaign I am scathing on him for the small ones he has introduced. Notice I don't call the cuts "Efficiency Dividends" because I am not a cheerleader. Yet you will see those cheerleaders of the opposite persuasion say it wasn't really a carbon tax and was really in Gillard's platform. I am not that shallow and will call a spade a spade.

[P-man 13,366]

P-man if you read my posts you will notice I have been equally critical of Abbott's lies. Infact, I think the ABC needs massive cuts if not privatisation, however, given Abbott said there will be no cuts to the ABC in the election campaign I am scathing on him for the small ones he has introduced. Notice I don't call the cuts "Efficiency Dividends" because I am not a cheerleader. Yet you will see those cheerleaders of the opposite persuasion say it wasn't really a carbon tax and was really in Gillard's platform. I am not that shallow and will call a spade a spade.

And what of the raft of other broken promises? That's not even a complete list of them. Name me another government that has deceived the voting public more than this one.

If you read my post, I'm not disputing it was a carbon tax. It is however laughable the frenzy whipped up over it considering the level of deception from this government.

I'm not anti-Liberal. I voted for Howard when I thought they were the best option. I am very anti-Abbott and anti-the current government. Removing Abbott, as diabolical as he is, is not going to be a magical bandaid.

ABC is far and away the best FTA channel amongst the other mindless dross. Privatise the ABC and you essentially kill it.

But that'd be alright. No more of that lefty nonsense amirite? Less of that hippy climate change dribble.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

And what of the raft of other broken promises? That's not even a complete list of them. Name me another government that has deceived the voting public more than this one.

If you read my post, I'm not disputing it was a carbon tax. It is however laughable the frenzy whipped up over it considering the level of deception from this government.

I don't know how many times I can explain to you I deplore broken political promises no matter who makes them. You seem to think they are much worse when Abbott makes them.

[P-man 13,366]

I don't know how many times I can explain to you I deplore broken political promises no matter who makes them. You seem to think they are much worse when Abbott makes them.

Nonsense. I judge each one on its merits.

I've pointed out to you the context around "no carbon tax", none of which you've disputed.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Nonsense. I judge each one on its merits.

I've pointed out to you the context around "no carbon tax", none of which you've disputed.

And I've pointed out why I refuse to buy into the context issues around the cuts to the ABC. If Abbott lies I will call it out for what it is. I guess that's where our differences lie. I'll happily call a spade a spade without watering it down, calling a beat-up or making excuses.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Wrecker45